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Vagabong posted:Yeah, its clear that he lasts for power, just that he thinks the best way of acquiring it is by making the lives of Martinase's residents better. This is how I interpret it. He's a dragon, but the hoard of treasure he sleeps on isn't Martinaise's wealth, but Martinaise itself. As it grows, he grows, and he's unscrupulous enough to do whatever he can to ensure Martinaise and its people prosper. That being said, it's not as if Evrart is only driven by power. Your skills will chime in to comment that he's seen things in Martinaise's poverty that genuinely upsets him. Inland Empire (one of your most reliable skills) even explicitly says he's genuine in his stated motives, but you wouldn't know it by looking at him.
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Apr 28, 2022 22:30
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Gaius Marius posted:He's building the center to drive people out of the village from the construction noises. He's ruining the lives of innocent people for no gain but his own. You and others continued assertion that Joyce is worse means nothing. My position is that Evrart is human garbage, I'm asserting nothing else about anyone else's character or their goals. What does he gain from driving people out of the village, exactly? Him, personally, what does he gain? And the fact is, he's having you go out and try to get people to agree to it first. You think a capitalist would even get signatures? They'd just buy enough of them out to start construction and be done with it. And they wouldn't be building something that could even potentially help the community. The community center, one way or another, is going to improve things for people.The construction work itself is going to employ people who need work in a place that hasn't seen any new construction in a long time, but it's got potential to do a lot more than that, doesn't it? Your insight checks reveal that for all his greed and corruption, Evrart is absolutely sincere when it comes to the Youth Center - that he genuinely wants to build it (despite the old washerwoman thinking its another thing that won't get done), and genuinely thinks it's going to kick off a revitalization of the area. It's one of the few things the game explicitly tells you he is not doing to enrich or empower himself. Vagabong posted:Evrate's real plan is to use the youth centre construction to drive out the current residents and then build union housing, right? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Apr 28, 2022 |
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Apr 28, 2022 22:30
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Alchenar posted:I mean it's deliberate framing by the game developers that you never meet anyone who might plausibly replace Evrart. who would benefit, by the way, if there was a "nicer", less "corrupt" union leader?
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Apr 28, 2022 22:32
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Evrart is right wing because he is fat.
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Apr 28, 2022 22:32
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Actually he's a hipster because he lives in a modified shipping container Which I suppose still qualifies as high living when everybody else is living in a ramshackle hut or whatever minimally damaged units they can find in a half blown up apartment building
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Apr 28, 2022 22:33
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Keep in mind that you can't trust Joyce when it comes to her opinion on the Union. She's smart, but she's also literally Jeff Bezos.
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Apr 28, 2022 22:41
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Bezos would never deign to visit the site of a crisis himself
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Apr 28, 2022 22:43
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Epic High Five posted:Actually he's a hipster because he lives in a modified shipping container Mr everat claims to be a socialist and yet he lives like a multibillonaire 
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Apr 28, 2022 22:44
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Gaius Marius posted:Bezos would never deign to visit the site of a crisis himself Eagerly awaiting the DLC where Joyce goes to space amidst a massive marketing blitz that completely and utterly fails to excite anyone.
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Apr 28, 2022 23:02
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Gaius Marius posted:He's improving the lives in revachol by gentrifying the fishing village? the more time goes on the more I applaud ZA/UM for doing the joyce x evrart contrast Alchenar posted:I mean it's deliberate framing by the game developers that you never meet anyone who might plausibly replace Evrart. In terms of historical materialism (sure it is a fantastic setting but hey the authors are all commies), it's very difficult seeing a different profile to lead such an union in such an impoverished district in such an effective way to stand off against one of the largest companies of that world. The major criticism that can be levied against Evrart in those terms is that he is a personalist, which tends to be problematic for socialism in long term (e.g. Tito in Yugoslavia). Call Me Mañana puts it very well when you ask about it: well, who do you think is going to fare better at class warfare, a saintly man or a corrupt motherfucker? Sierra Madre posted:Your skills will chime in to comment that he's seen things in Martinaise's poverty that genuinely upsets him More than that. Several of them will tell you that he is sincere in his socialism, which I think it's a brilliant provocation against a lot of western social-democrats: what good is your sincere belief in the cause if you keep refusing to roll up your sleeves if circumstances require you to do so?
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Apr 28, 2022 23:05
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I forget who said it but someone once mentioned the joyce/evrart contrast being one where she has personal integrity but is politically corrupt whereas he has political integrity but is personally corrupt.
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Apr 28, 2022 23:09
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Does space even exist in the DE world?
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Apr 28, 2022 23:10
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They used to put satellites in orbit and now they can't, so, space at least did exist.
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Apr 28, 2022 23:14
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I do wonder how much of Joyce's empathy is the result of pale sickness; when you are stewed in the confused memories of humanity maybe life as a committed ultra-liberal makes less sense.
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Apr 28, 2022 23:14
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The game is explicit that the Union could be using the strike to successfully extract concessions from Wild Pines, Evrart isn't content to make things a bit better for Martinaise, he's making a play to flip the table and take everything (so that the Union can freely go big on the drugs trade remember). There also was a nicer less corrupt Union leader. Evrart and Edgar had them killed.
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Apr 28, 2022 23:17
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Is Joyce actually a billionaire? I had assumed she was like a very comfortable multimillionaire.
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Apr 28, 2022 23:20
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Countblanc posted:Is Joyce actually a billionaire? I had assumed she was like a very comfortable multimillionaire. On the one hand she is a very powerful member of the board, but on the other hand I can see her clearly so she's at least not the richest person in the game and probably by a big margin
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Apr 28, 2022 23:21
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Vagabong posted:I do wonder how much of Joyce's empathy is the result of pale sickness; when you are stewed in the confused memories of humanity maybe life as a committed ultra-liberal makes less sense. IIRC Empathy is the state that correlates to Moralism (the way that Rhetoric and Savoir Faire do communism and ultraliberalism) thoughts and prayers
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Apr 28, 2022 23:22
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Countblanc posted:Is Joyce actually a billionaire? I had assumed she was like a very comfortable multimillionaire. Joyce owns a controlling interest in
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Apr 28, 2022 23:22
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wiegieman posted:Joyce owns a controlling interest in I can't believe I just got that connection now.
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Apr 28, 2022 23:30
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Shes also probably not a billionaire because she doesnt bend light. Or maybe stocks dont count for that purpose, do they let you see the light bending guy? If they did that would cause the effect to stop since even Kim's meager wealth is enough to see him clearly.
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Apr 28, 2022 23:33
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"Is Evrart A Socialist" - the greatest thread in the history of forums, locked by a moderator after 12,239 pages of heated debate,
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Apr 28, 2022 23:35
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Joyce doesn't bend light because she's decieving Harry about who she is.
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Apr 28, 2022 23:36
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Fister Roboto posted:"Are women bourgeois" - the greatest thread in the history of forums, locked by a moderator after 12,239 pages of heated debate,
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Apr 29, 2022 00:05
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christmas boots posted:I forget who said it but someone once mentioned the joyce/evrart contrast being one where she has personal integrity but is politically corrupt whereas he has political integrity but is personally corrupt. It feels very much like they took the worst person on the planet and made him the head of a union and took the best person on the planet and made them a billionaire. Turns out, individual morality is less important than the nature of the political structure one controls. Edit: or at least made the best possible billionaire and the worst possible union head. Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Apr 29, 2022 |
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Apr 29, 2022 00:17
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Vagabong posted:Joyce doesn't bend light because she's decieving Harry about who she is. I hadn't thought of this like this, but it makes sense. Anyway, I think the most important thing that distinguishes Joyce from the billionaires that she gets compared to is that she is that she is no longer happy with any ideology that could justify her riches. Both real billionaires or the rest of the board of WP. While she is the most obvious liberal character, she is almost a former liberal. She wouldn't be half as sympathetic otherwise. This makes it possible that she is lying here, too. What she has in common with Harry is that they are between ideologies, but utterly tied to their past in ways that makes them unacceptable to any true morality without a supernatural redemption arc.
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Apr 29, 2022 00:40
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It's more that Joyce is rich enough that she can afford to be a nice person.
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Apr 29, 2022 00:41
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She definitely gives off the vibe that she regrets that the revolution failed, but that's at the end of a life of living high of the hog off its failure (and also possibly the pale melting her brain effecting her views).
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Apr 29, 2022 00:45
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Fister Roboto posted:It's more that Joyce is rich enough that she can afford to be a nice person. True. My point is more that Joyce seems to have transitioned from a normal billionaire life to being a bit nice fairly recently. Her Moralist ending might have her going on a Bill Gates style charity arc after the events of the game.
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Apr 29, 2022 00:48
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christmas boots posted:I forget who said it but someone once mentioned the joyce/evrart contrast being one where she has personal integrity but is politically corrupt whereas he has political integrity but is personally corrupt. It's almost comical how on the nose it is. Evrart is Obese and Joyce is rail thin. She personally goes to the docks to negotiate, Evrart has himself moved in his container. She is a competent sailor, whereas he has a fishing gear that he doesn't use. She's nothing but cool tones, he's nothing but warm. He only thinks of the future, she's stuck in the past
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Apr 29, 2022 00:59
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VictualSquid posted:True. Tell me more about Bill Gates’ charity.
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Apr 29, 2022 01:19
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Vagabong posted:Evrate's real plan is to use the youth centre construction to drive out the current residents and then build union housing, right? This is correct, I literally finished the game last night and in the final conversation he mentions building new apartments and low-income housing where the boardwalk is as part of the longer-term improvements to the area across the river.
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Apr 29, 2022 01:24
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i thought it was just implied that the noise of the construction for so long would make the people in the fishing village leave. describing joyce as being like bill gates isnt doing her any favors
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Apr 29, 2022 01:49
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The people of the fishing village can live in the new buildings and enjoy the youth center.
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Apr 29, 2022 01:58
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VictualSquid posted:I hadn't thought of this like this, but it makes sense. I like this post.
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Apr 29, 2022 02:04
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Gaius Marius posted:He's a Sarte reference Omg how did I miss that goddamn eye was Sartre reference
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Apr 29, 2022 02:10
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Evrarte is one of my favorite characters, but you can't really understand him without juxtaposing him with Joyce. Good post
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Apr 29, 2022 02:30
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Countblanc posted:Evrart is right wing because he is fat. no its because he has a lazy eye
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Apr 29, 2022 02:42
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"Everyone's a fuckin' lib, Harry." "Even the Communists?" "Especially the Communists."
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Apr 29, 2022 03:42
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Alchenar posted:The game is explicit that the Union could be using the strike to successfully extract concessions from Wild Pines, Evrart isn't content to make things a bit better for Martinaise, he's making a play to flip the table and take everything (so that the Union can freely go big on the drugs trade remember). wanna pick up on this one because I feel this might be important to contrast with an anglocentric view of the world here in Brazil, lots of narcs have built parallel power structures that are effectively a viable alternative to a neglectful state that little cares for the poor, and in many places, have been very successful to the point that it became impossible to enforce state interests without a quasi-civil war (which is what already happens and is one of the major reasons why Brazil has one of the absolute worst rates of deaths by police in the world)   the state not only fails to provide social development, but is actively hostile against people. Not only that, policemen use the state's resources to become militiamen and carve their own fiefdoms of criminal power in order to seize a cut from crime, effectively acting a minor form of warlordism (which can be seen in its mature form in Mexico and Colombia). Yet there's a reason why the FARC continues to this day and why Pablo Escobar keeps being held in high regard by the poor. In Brazil, the poor keep joining criminal factions (not the militias) and will keep joining them because those factions are the actual institutional force of their social world: while Bolsonaro was being a shithead about COVID, narcs and other leaders were obliging mask mandates and telling people to follow quarantine procedures to the letter. In some particular strongholds, factions provided social aid. the situation in Martinaise is very evocative of that: if the State abandons its social duty, people simply do not go "oh shucks", parallel power structures emerge from their organization in response to the State's absence. IRL, many unions fulfilled social roles during times such as the Great Depression, while also doing a quite considerable degree of crime: threatening capitalists, sabotage, destruction of property, theft, arson, obstruction of justice, helping people run away from the police, so on and on the question that should be asked is: how bad things had to be so that guys like the Claires enjoy so much support. This is dealing with historical circumstances, the world as it is. The previous union leader getting offed is no big deal because she was a class traitor (the deserter and a couple of skills comment about that), having the in-game equivalent of a Hermés bag that no longshorewoman could ever be able to afford. The people of Martinaise couldn't give less of a poo poo about it because they knew that. If she actually had the support of the debardeurs, the Claires would never get away with it. The union is criminal? Of course. The game beats that information over the player's head from the start. However, they enjoy popular legitimacy because who goes after the Pigs after that old lady's total breakdown? Titus' men. This is the part that gives Evrart true social authority and political power.
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Apr 29, 2022 03:53
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