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Arc Hammer posted:If Fukui wrote that religion was replaced by Zeon why would he then also write Muslim suicide family into Unicorn. The nazis replaced religion with nazism, but there were still plenty of Catholics in Germany
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Apr 29, 2022 13:15
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War and Pieces posted:The colonial independence movement absolutely predat some martyred politician. If it did then I don't think anything has ever been stated about it, and it's probably more a thing that Zeon Zum Deikun was the first major proponent to make it a noteworthy movement. Arc Hammer posted:If Fukui wrote that religion was replaced by Zeon why would he then also write Muslim suicide family into Unicorn. I would imagine it's meant in a "religion was generally seen as obsolete after that point, but a small section of the population held onto their beliefs", with that small population not really reaching out into the fringes of society, where people had lost any interest or belief in old systems, but were desperate enough to need something. I'm pretty sure ZZ is the first work to include explicit mention of religion, with Muslims fighting alongside Zeon characters in Africa. Tomino's original setting work on Zeta mentions Jews too, but also mentioned that he didn't intend it to be reflected in the show itself. Which is certainly for the best, given the stereotyping it indulges in. Religion was never a major element of UC, but there was some minor mentions of it and Unicorn's portrayals are reflective of that; especially since not even Marida sees Zeon in a religious light in reality, and just shows that some of the earliest space workers treated the movement religiously. tsob fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Apr 29, 2022 |
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Apr 29, 2022 13:19
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Selected favourites: Cherudim Gundam Doven Wolf Hecate Mercurius Nu Gundam Qubeley Turn-X Vertigo Bits, funnels, fangs, whatever you call it, if it flies around off your MS, I like it.
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Apr 29, 2022 13:25
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I would assume it's like how the nazis intentionally tried to replace religion with nazism. They scheduled Hitler Youth meetings on Sundays, demonized the Catholic clergy, and generally tried to replace the deeper meaning and community people found in religion with the idea of one big ethnic German family. But they did it gradually, trying to slide people off their faith and onto nazism because they knew that if there was a direct confrontation where all Germans had to pick the Church or the nazis, a lot would pick the Church. So there were still plenty of both nominal and actually practicing Catholics in nazi Germany all the way to the end.
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Apr 29, 2022 13:29
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jackhunter64 posted:Bits, funnels, fangs, whatever you call it, if it flies around off your MS, I like it. I'm honestly kind of surprised that Gundam has yet to have a unit that is just a fractal remote weapon nightmare; not even in one of the Build shows. As in, a giant unit with with Bit mobile suits that each have their own funnels. The Patulia in X for instance would have been much more interesting and intimidating if it was a giant spaceship that opened into a huge cannon, but had bit Bertigos supporting it, since Garrod had already strugged just to beat 1 Bertigo. Now it's one huge mobile armor/ship with bit mobile suits each with their own funnels. You could even keep the wired weapons too, so it's just every conceivable remote weapon in one; especially if you gave the Bertigo wired hand cannons like the Zeong/Febral.
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Apr 29, 2022 13:29
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Probably because that sounds annoying to animate.
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Apr 29, 2022 13:51
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The only pilot strong enough to handle controlling such a monster? Chara Soon, of course.
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Apr 29, 2022 13:53
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tsob posted:I'm honestly kind of surprised that Gundam has yet to have a unit that is just a fractal remote weapon nightmare; not even in one of the Build shows. As in, a giant unit with with Bit mobile suits that each have their own funnels. The Patulia in X for instance would have been much more interesting and intimidating if it was a giant spaceship that opened into a huge cannon, but had bit Bertigos supporting it, since Garrod had already strugged just to beat 1 Bertigo. Now it's one huge mobile armor/ship with bit mobile suits each with their own funnels. You could even keep the wired weapons too, so it's just every conceivable remote weapon in one; especially if you gave the Bertigo wired hand cannons like the Zeong/Febral. I think the closest a mobile suit has come to the 'gently caress it, everything is a remote weapon' is the Zabanya. No, it doesn't have a slave mobile suit like the Raphael, but nearly all of its armour plates are missile launchers, and it's got fourteen holsters containing fourteen pistol-axes with optional barrel attachments to turn them into rifles where the pistols, the barrel attachments, and the holsters also double as remote weapons, and can be configured into multiple formations to create even bigger guns. Actually, come to think of it, the same movie does have the Gadelaza, which does indeed have remote weapons as carriers for other remote weapons - its fourteen Large GN fangs each serve as control and refuelling hubs for ten Small GN Hubs. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Apr 29, 2022 |
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Apr 29, 2022 13:58
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First Gundam - Z'Gok Zeta - idk they're all garbage. The Barzam? ZZ - GM III Chars Counterattack - ReGZ 0080 - GM Sniper II F91 - Heavygun 0083 - RX-78GP01Fb Gundam GP01Fb Zephyranthes Full Burnern Victory - V2 Gundam Pokemon - Kingler 08th MS Team - The Gouf Custom, c'mon Unicorn - Jesta Thunderbolt - Full Armor Gundam
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Apr 29, 2022 14:27
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Darth Walrus posted:Actually, come to think of it, the same movie does have the Gadelaza, which does indeed have remote weapons as carriers for other remote weapons - its fourteen Large GN fangs each serve as control and refuelling hubs for ten Small GN Hubs. Good point. They're not mobile suit shaped, but they're basically the same concept, and the base Gadelaza is even a huge mobile armor that might as well be a ship of it's own, and is mainly a huge cannon. It's fun for the few minutes it has screentime in the movie too.
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Apr 29, 2022 14:39
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Top 10 is impossible but by show is doable MSG - Gelgoog Zeta - Zeta Gundam ZZ - Bawoo CCA - Hi Nu F91/Crossbone - X3 Victory - V2 without any of its extra crap on it Unicorn - Unicorn G - God Wing - Wing Zero EW X - Double X Turn A - Gold Sumo SEED - Providence Destiny - Destiny 00 - 00 Raiser AGE - Age II Build Fighters - Star Build IBO - Bael
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Apr 29, 2022 15:49
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MSG: Gelgoog Zeta: Qubeley ZZ: Geymalk CCA: Jagd Doga F91: F91 Victory: Gengaozo Unicorn: Rezel G: Shining Gundam Wing: Tallgeese X: Bertigo Turn A: Gold Sumo SEED: Providence Destiny: Destiny 00: Reborns AGE: AGE-2 Build Fighters: Fenice Build Fighters Try: GM Cardigan Build Divers: Uhhhh Galbaldy Rebake i guess Re-Rise: Uraven IBO: Vidar
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Apr 29, 2022 17:21
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Looking deep inside my soul I have to say. The Rising gundam is cooler than the Shining or Burning.
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Apr 29, 2022 17:25
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Best MS: 1) Guntank 2) Z'Gok 3) Zaku II 4) Hobo Exia 5) Wodom 6) Bolt Gundam 7) Astray Red Frame Power Loader 8) Sandrock Gundam (EW) 9) Kapool 10) Jenice Kai Slash Buffalo The guiding principles for good MS design are being weird and blocky, having single eyes, and really ratty cloaks. Zore fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Apr 29, 2022 |
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Apr 29, 2022 17:57
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Barzam and Nemo.
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Apr 29, 2022 18:54
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in no particular order quebeley nightingale tallgeese full armor gundam (thunderbolt) hamurabi nu gundam full armor gundam mk.ii f91 gundam gx gundam zaku ii
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Apr 29, 2022 19:13
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For as long s I've discussed Gundam on this forum, the Tallgeese has been beloved, and the most hated Gundam ever was Sandrock. Good opinions.
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Apr 29, 2022 19:33
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tsob posted:
We also have Al's prayer in 0080 to indicate that religion is still regularly practiced in Side Six. As for ZZ, it showed pretty big Muslim communities, with whole towns showing open religious observance, not just the small groups assisting Neo Zeon.
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Apr 29, 2022 19:37
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chiasaur11 posted:We also have Al's prayer in 0080 to indicate that religion is still regularly practiced in Side Six. As for ZZ, it showed pretty big Muslim communities, with whole towns showing open religious observance, not just the small groups assisting Neo Zeon. Indeed. The message I felt that the "Light of Zeon" line was trying to convey was that "Everyone in Space is a true believer in Zeon.' Admittedly, I don't think we can take it as that, because Marida is not an unbiased narrator in this situation... and also because Fukui's hack writing gave her the standard Unicorn Tragic Backstory (TM).
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Apr 29, 2022 19:54
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Also the entire reason Full Frontal put Banagher with Gilboa's family and with Marida was to try and sell him on Zeon being the good guys. It was in their interests to play up the idealized version of Zeon to try and get Banagher on side.
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Apr 29, 2022 19:59
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Full Frontal also does not actually care about Spacenoids or the Ideals he is talking about anyway.
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Apr 29, 2022 20:29
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MonsterEnvy posted:Full Frontal also does not actually care about Spacenoids or the Ideals he is talking about anyway. Unlike Char, though, he'll at least do whatever advances the agenda instead of blowing it all up for a last revenge match with Amuro. He's a tame Char. All the charisma and a lot of the piloting talent, but none of actual motivation. He'll go along with your plan because he doesn't care about anything enough to object.
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Apr 29, 2022 20:39
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Frontal is the lamest villain gundams had. The whole empty vessel thing has been done so much better in MGSV and with MF DOOM. He ends up being this weird slimy man with a false aura of charisma. Gundams Mitt Romney
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Apr 29, 2022 20:50
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NikkolasKing posted:For as long s I've discussed Gundam on this forum, the Tallgeese has been beloved, and the most hated Gundam ever was Sandrock. The sandrock just flat out does not make any sense for why they outfitted it as they did, even in a Gundam universe where the robits get extendy arms of unknown lengths. Just the lamest of those units and the midseason upgrade is "have an uzi" because we totally forgot that sometimes your enemies wont sit still for you to melee them. poo poo even the Heavyarms had the token switchblade!
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Apr 29, 2022 20:56
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the sandrock is stupid but looks fine, shotels are cool and it even gets that cape once. i don't like the heavyarms stupid arm knife or either coloring scheme, but neither of these actually matter compared to altron
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Apr 29, 2022 21:12
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heavyarms is the 90s guncannon, so it's cool though
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Apr 29, 2022 21:29
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Full Frontal is an excellent villain with a fantastic suit he just suffers from going up against Banana
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Apr 29, 2022 21:36
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tsob posted:If it did then I don't think anything has ever been stated about it, and it's probably more a thing that Zeon Zum Deikun was the first major proponent to make it a noteworthy movement. If nobody in the colonies cared about independence before that whackjob started spouting his new age bullshit then the Spacenoids deserved worse
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Apr 29, 2022 21:54
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Professor Wayne posted:heavyarms is the 90s guncannon, so it's cool though With all due respect, the Heavyarms isn't a patch on the Guncannon. (Also, the 90s Guncannon is the G-Cannon.)
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Apr 29, 2022 22:07
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Taking a work break and my top 10 in no order are HiNu, Quebley, V2 Gundam, Exia, Jegan, Shining Gundam, Rick Dom, Destiny, Tallegeese 1, and Vidar.
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Apr 29, 2022 22:50
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Fivemarks posted:Indeed. The message I felt that the "Light of Zeon" line was trying to convey was that "Everyone in Space is a true believer in Zeon.' Admittedly, I don't think we can take it as that, because Marida is not an unbiased narrator in this situation... and also because Fukui's hack writing gave her the standard Unicorn Tragic Backstory (TM). See, I took away almost the complete opposite of that. Marida talks about how people clung to religion as a coping method for being on a tiny little asteroid out in the middle of nowhere, and that eventually people replaced "religion" with "Zeon" as their distant, desperate, invisible hope. That Zeon endures so long past the One Year War has absolutely nothing to do with what Zeon is or was or did or believes, it endures because people have this idol they cling to at the desperate need, this word named "Zeon" that they believe will someday come for them and bring them all to the promised land and deliver them from their hardscrabble existence. They might be "true believers" but the "Zeon" they cling to doesn't really have anything to do with anything Char or Haman or Gihren (or Full Frontal) was actually pedaling. It's a defense mechanism, the vague unifying nationalistic shared experience that's actually disconnected from any real nation. If the spacenoids keep rallying behind neo-neo-neo-Zeon it's not necessarily because they believe in spacenoid superiority or in kicking everyone off earth to become Newtypes or the dumb coprosperity sphere or anything like that, it's because the array of reheated fascists who keep waving that flag are the only people who even PRETEND to loving give a poo poo about them. They aren't true believers in anything besides the idea that being a permanent underclass beneath a bunch of uncaring, corrupt bourgeois bastards sucks and makes you want to shove cake down their throats till they choke. And again, that does track with Unicorn as a whole. Unicorns whole shtick is about the generational cycle of hatred in the earth sphere. The people attacking Torrington are fighting a battle in the war they've lost for a nation that has disavowed them and for a formless cause they cling to only because they can't think of anything else to believe in. Zimmerman's back story was howlingly lame, but the whole point of him as a character is that he's a man who is more or less running on the embers of an old vendetta that's burning low. All those random spacenoids who support Zeon do it almost as a crutch, because they don't believe they have anything else to lean on.
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Apr 29, 2022 22:54
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So, having watched the whole or abbreviated version of most Gundam series (The original, Zeta, G, Turn A, G-Reco, Re:Rise, and IBO in full, AGE, SEED, and Destiny from the movies), I figured I'd give 00 another go. Second episode didn't do much more for me than the first one did, sorry to say. Probably less, given how the first one at least had a first rate opening. There's a lot of talking, but not much gets said, at least so far. Mostly, we just get random people in positions of authority giving similar sound bites about Celestial Being. Then Celestial Being gets involved in a brushfire war, showing that yep, they're doing what they were doing, and Graham shows up to end the episode. It's boring, which is a problem, but a weirder one is how it's supposed to be the 2300s, but the world is basically unchanged, with most conflicts explicitly continuing from the 2000s, even ones that were resolved in the next decade. It's like if a 1770s novel was about the Revolutionary War just going on as it was into the 2000s. I really get now why the original Gundam went with a fake calendar. Smart choice, Tomino. I don't hate it, but I'm not really invested yet, either.
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Apr 30, 2022 00:03
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One thing that you're never going to get is the experience at the time. 00 early on was seen as such a massive break it made people lose their minds a bit. Especially coming off SEED and Destiny which were so steeped in the previous Gundam aesthetic, to the point that they started reusing the suits from the OG. Then you have the mechanincs in 00 come along. The exia is miles from the RX-78 and F91 designs that dominated the 90's and early 00's. And the Grunts went even further, the Flags go farther than any of even the weirdest Zeta designs in it's Svelteness and strange transformation. The Tieren goes the opposite direction pushing the Chonk to levels that Leo's and Zaku's simply cannot hit. Viewing the work after seeing the more out their works of Gyoubu in Reco and IBO, the mechanics aren't going to be the sea change that it was in the fandom of the time. The world being unchanged, or at least representative of the current world is deliberate. Before Unicorn the idea of the UC being the future of AD was a thing, but not in the forefront of anyone's mind, or the works. 00 frames itself as the modern world as a part of it's three phases. Season 1 is the Child phase where Humanity is still barely grasping out side it's cradle, Season 2 brings the world together, and aesthically brings in more traditional Gundam elements. The CB has caused the sort of change that one cannot take back. The movie represents the future, both of Gundam as a work, and of humanity itself. We've overcome are internal difference and are ready to leap out the crib and explore the rest of the world. So metonymically S1 is our world S2 the Gundam world and Movie is the future of the franchise, also macross
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Apr 30, 2022 00:42
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tsob posted:I'm not as down on Fukui's writing in the Unicorn OVA, or even Narrative, as a lot of people, but yeah, he's definitely a clumsy writer who leans too hard on shocking things like rape for backstory among other faults. Pretty much any time a sci-fi franchise tries to go "well once we went to space all the old religions just died out" it makes my eyes roll so hard that you could probably power a Ball with the resulting energy, religions do die out but it's never that simple and I highly doubt humanity moving to space would be the kind of change that would cause that to happen to a noticeably higher degree, indeed if anything I figure the harsher living conditions of space(at least in the early days of space colonization) and the forced nature of the majority of the population being emigrated to space would cause a massive religious boom beyond any humanity had ever experienced before Say what you will about Orson Scott Card as a human being but this is one thing he understands better than most sci-fi authors drrockso20 fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Apr 30, 2022 |
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Apr 30, 2022 00:46
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Gaius Marius posted:Frontal is the lamest villain gundams had. The whole empty vessel thing has been done so much better in MGSV and with MF DOOM. He ends up being this weird slimy man with a false aura of charisma. Gundams Mitt Romney At least the Sinanju is an incredibly rad mobile suit.
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Apr 30, 2022 01:42
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I liked the Sinanju at first but more and more I feel it's missing something and I cannot put my finger on it.
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Apr 30, 2022 01:56
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Yeah, Sinanju is cool and continues a streak of kind of lame(to me) characters with a great suit.
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Apr 30, 2022 01:57
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Having rewatched unicorn last week, I really like frontal as a villain and character, and thought it was a very interesting take on cloning a main character.
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Apr 30, 2022 01:57
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I will be honest and admit I haven't yet gotten to Unicorn on my rewatch so a significant portion of Full Frontal annoyance is vague memory and playing a ton of Gundam Dynasty Warriors III.
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Apr 30, 2022 02:04
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Gaius Marius posted:One thing that you're never going to get is the experience at the time. 00 early on was seen as such a massive break it made people lose their minds a bit. Especially coming off SEED and Destiny which were so steeped in the previous Gundam aesthetic, to the point that they started reusing the suits from the OG. Then you have the mechanincs in 00 come along. The exia is miles from the RX-78 and F91 designs that dominated the 90's and early 00's. And the Grunts went even further, the Flags go farther than any of even the weirdest Zeta designs in it's Svelteness and strange transformation. The Tieren goes the opposite direction pushing the Chonk to levels that Leo's and Zaku's simply cannot hit. Viewing the work after seeing the more out their works of Gyoubu in Reco and IBO, the mechanics aren't going to be the sea change that it was in the fandom of the time. To be fair to past Gundam, there was also Turn A before 00. It's not like it was the first show to go out on a limb, and I'd say that the Flat and WaDom are at least as weird as the Flag and the Tieren. Sure, 00 went out and had exciting designs again after SEED was boring as sin, but as you say, that context is gone. I don't feel like giving bonus points for being interesting again after one's setting worth of boring. Gaius Marius posted:The world being unchanged, or at least representative of the current world is deliberate. Before Unicorn the idea of the UC being the future of AD was a thing, but not in the forefront of anyone's mind, or the works. 00 frames itself as the modern world as a part of it's three phases. Season 1 is the Child phase where Humanity is still barely grasping out side it's cradle, Season 2 brings the world together, and aesthically brings in more traditional Gundam elements. The CB has caused the sort of change that one cannot take back. The movie represents the future, both of Gundam as a work, and of humanity itself. We've overcome are internal difference and are ready to leap out the crib and explore the rest of the world. So metonymically S1 is our world S2 the Gundam world and Movie is the future of the franchise, also macross I get that, but the show combines a massive time leap with a minimal amount of social changes. The Space Elevators only entered service within Setsuna's lifetime, the first MS was only built after Allelujah was born, and the Real IRA is still a thing, just like in the 21st century. Meanwhile, the timeline says it's decades past the setting of the original Star Trek. It's basically a staggering amount of cultural stasis, even by science fiction standards, and giving hard numbers just emphasizes how little has changed after the 20th century compared to every previous century.
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Apr 30, 2022 03:34
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