|
TGLT posted:Then it's time for the other 48 to finally yank some leashes. Which loving leashes are those? Please be specific.
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 18:14 |
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:If abortion is overwhelmingly popular nationally, then surely even conservative states would be able to nominate pro-choice senators (regardless of party!). Those conservative senators might break with the party on other issues, but that just goes back to the 20th-century view of senators being individual human beings with their own personal issue positions which align with the party on some issues but not all. I am astonished that we can single out voters, the people with the least amount of power in the situation as individuals, over much more powerful individuals. Who is to blame? A guy who saw enough Manchin ads and pulled the lever for him, who ignores politics 11 months out of 12, 12 out of 12 most years? Or Leonard Leo, a guy who has handpicked the majority of votes on the Supreme Court? It’s impossible to take anything you wrote seriously when it’s so divorced from a coherent analysis of power. The voters are the least powerful people in the US political system.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:45
|
|
|
JT Jag posted:The reason that it's not a universal healthcare plan is also because of the filibuster Nah; that has more to do with the secret promises that Obama made to "stakeholders" like PhRMA & the American Hospital Assn. than the filibuster. eg: Drug-price controls, which amendments passed with GOP support & then were killed by Reid bc the amendments weren't "filibuster-proof" due to Democratic opposition.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:45
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Just do it. It's more important than whatever your work call is.  to eat and sleep indoors and receive medical care is a big part of the reason people don't express their true thoughts more often. And the reason why I do it here and not on "actual" social media.But we're "free," right? 
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:45
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Just do it. It's more important than whatever your work call is. Talking politics can get you fired and for many that means losing your healthcare. You can be upset, but not scolding people who need their jobs to live is also not a great idea.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:46
|
|
|
CuddleCryptid posted:This is something I didn't think about when they were saying that donations will be matched, but now that they are offering x4 as much I have to ask, who is doing the "matching" here? I'm sure this is some sort of campaign finance dodge here but it's getting absolutely absurd. It’s a dodge. They’re using the same funds to match multiple donations. So they don’t have 4X their total donations on hand, just 4X the largest one.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:46
|
|
|
Mellow Seas posted:I mean the fact that most of us are completely dependent on meeting our boss's standards of Dude, you tell communists to go kill themselves so I honestly don't know what you want from anyone besides a magic wand. I'm sorry you hate that hard things will be hard.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:47
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the leashes, sadly, are not designed to discipline the party's right. only its left. Manchin can threaten to join the Republicans. Sanders can threaten to... be independent again, but still caucus with the Democrats. The ideology you're calling out is almost certainly an implicit motivation to the Democratic establishment, at least. But I think there are some obvious tactical advantages that the "center" has in this case you're not taking into consideration. I think the reason the establishment hits the left harder is because the left has less leverage. I'm pretty sure the establishment is pretty pissed at Manchin single handedly denying the Democrats anything significant they can point to going into the midterms, but there's just less they can do against him.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:48
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Dude, you tell communists to go kill themselves so I honestly don't know what you want from anyone besides a magic wand. What communists did I tell to kill themselves? YMB doesn't count because he's not a loving human being. I don't think he's a real communist, either. And honestly, many people survive drinking manageable amounts of bleach. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:48
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Just do it. It's more important than whatever your work call is. hmm yes, let me get fired and plunge my family into destitution just so I can go aggro on my co-workers who are also just trying to get by. Belligerent activism is not going to win many hearts and minds in the workplace.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:48
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:If abortion is overwhelmingly popular nationally, then surely even conservative states would be able to nominate pro-choice senators (regardless of party!). Those conservative senators might break with the party on other issues, but that just goes back to the 20th-century view of senators being individual human beings with their own personal issue positions which align with the party on some issues but not all. But that’s not happening, so those assumptions do not hold. You aren’t allowed to be a republican senator if you’re pro choice. You are allowed to be a democratic senator if you’re not pro choice. The proposed path forward is “get 12 more senators” but the party is fine with those 12 more senators not being pro choice, which means even 12 more senators does not solve the problem.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:49
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Just do it. It's more important than whatever your work call is. Do you even exist in the real world? Bringing unwanted politics into every discussion will get you fired and friendless
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:50
|
|
|
Gotcha, ok. Workers discussing politics together is not the solution. Sorry for suggesting it.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:51
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Gotcha, ok. Workers discussing politics together is not the solution. Sorry for suggesting it. "Also, quit your job and starve to death, on my behalf!"
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:52
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Gotcha, ok. Workers discussing politics together is not the solution. Sorry for suggesting it. Don't be dishonest. That's not what you suggested. You suggested a single person shoehorning politics into the workplace, not "workers discussing politics".
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:52
|
|
|
Mellow Seas posted:honestly, many people survive drinking manageable amounts of bleach. Thread title. and that's not very mellow Gumball Gumption posted:Gotcha, ok. Workers discussing politics together is not the solution. Sorry for suggesting it. I discuss politics with my co-workers regularly, but doing it on a conference call with a client is probably not the ideal time and place.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:52
|
|
|
Mellow Seas posted:I mean the fact that most of us are completely dependent on meeting our boss's standards of (Because they're trans, my spouse is the designated person for liberal people at their workplace to vent about news like this. It sucks, and doesn't make anyone's life better.)
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:54
|
|
|
Solkanar512 posted:Which loving leashes are those? Please be specific. Manchin and Sinema. Manchin in particular has always been allowed into the party with the understanding that he'll be there when his vote actually matters. If it wants to break with that poo poo then they need to break with him. Deprive him of committee positions and party resources until he either falls back in line or breaks with the party. And if he leaves the party then he wasn't a useful tool any more in the first place.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:54
|
|
|
VideoGameVet posted:And now let the fund raising begin! Can't wait to see this database of political fundraising emails once it's been updated to cover this week and beyond.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:54
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Gotcha, ok. Workers discussing politics together is not the solution. Sorry for suggesting it. I notice you didn't quote anyone because then you might have to engage with what people actually wrote instead of presenting your strawman. You can definitely talk to coworkers about politics. But it can be risky, so telling people: Gumball Gumption posted:Honestly, and this is to everyone in the thread, if you're not willing to chide your coworkers and talk politics to them the way you do here then your priorities are backwards and you should be doing more in the real world and less posting. is a privileged statement to make. It's good that you feel you can do this. But that's not true of everyone, and you loving know that.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:54
|
|
|
Eiba posted:Isn't it possible that there are structural issues that may be more important than ideological reasons that account for this asymmetry? And Biden can threaten to whisper in someone's ear and make Manchin or whatever other jackass disappear in the middle of the night. Stop pretending that the Dems just magically don't have any power and they're really sad about it, it's bullshit that they've been spoonfeeding the country since at least 2009.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 18:59
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Even if this is true (although this argument is very bad at proving it, it's just begging the question and you've dodged questions about things like gerrymandering so the whole thing is full of holes), why does democracy stop in 2016? Because this particular battle was lost for a generation back in November 2016. It may have taken time to resolve, but once it was set in motion, it couldn't be undone. Also, this was probably the biggest and most focused on topic on the policy front of that election. The public knew what they were voting for and what was at stake. It is not like the supreme court seat opened up a day or two before the election and people didn't really digest what was on the line. Mitch McConnell made the election about the supreme court back in February. If voters didn't think this would actually happen, or had other concerns that they prioritized over women's rights, then that is on them. The GOP ran on getting control of the senate and WH so they could nominate a judge who would repeal Roe vs Wade. That resonated with enough people that they were able to win a majority of the popular vote for the Senate, and won the electoral college. Traditional gerrymandering doesn't even factor in to this since all of the politicians involved (Governors, Senators, President) are elected through statewide popular votes. If the public wants to change their mind, well they are going to have to find a way to keep the GOP out of the WH long enough for enough conservative justices to die. The country will collapse and cease to exists long before you see a conservative minority on the supreme court. Elections have consequences. A lot of things can't be easily undone, and this is one of them. The American public needs to take responsibility for what happens in the country. Things aren't been done to us by some omnipotent 3rd party. Who nominated the judges who made repealing Roe vs. Wade possible? Who voted to confirm those judges? Were any of their actions not aligned with what the people who voted for them wanted them to do? All of the people involved in making this happen won statewide votes. The GOP won an outright majority of the public vote for Senate in 2016. This is what the American public chose. Polls showing that 57% or whatever number of people don't want Roe v Wade overturned are meaningless if people don't vote accordingly.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:02
|
|
|
Eiba posted:Isn't it possible that there are structural issues that may be more important than ideological reasons that account for this asymmetry? the structure and the ideology here are pretty difficult to disentangle from one another. the democratic party, as an organization, views its role as keeping the left disciplined enough to meet the right halfway. you can try asking that organization to discipline its rightmost members, but it's a little like asking someone to go gently caress an exhaust pipe. it's physically possible, sure, but that is not what any of the parts involved were designed to do, nobody involved gets anything out of it, and they're going to take it as a personal offense. when the left had leverage, in the battle over build back better, the order of the party apparatus to them was uncompromising and unilateral. "Surrender all your leverage, immediately, or else we will turn all of our efforts on preventing your reelection." the threat was made, the threat was heeded, and the reward the party received from the right for this gesture of good faith was precisely gently caress all. this threat is not deployed to the party's right, because the purpose of the modern democratic party is is to discipline the left, and to coddle the right, and it has no incentives whatsoever to alter this approach.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:03
|
|
|
Fritz the Horse posted:That's kind of what I was intending to communicate. Koos Group announced longer probations around the same time the Roe news came out, I don't think it's the intention for that to apply to the overnight discussion necessarily. You should not, in fact, moderate less because people are breaking the rules more.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:04
|
|
|
The Shortest Path posted:And Biden can threaten to whisper in someone's ear and make Manchin or whatever other jackass disappear in the middle of the night. Stop pretending that the Dems just magically don't have any power and they're really sad about it, it's bullshit that they've been spoonfeeding the country since at least 2009. Again with the comic book thinking. Even Trump knew the most the president could do to a senator who defied him is send angry tweets.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:05
|
|
|
JT Jag posted:The truly depressing part of this is that I don't know what the exit strategy is. The Democrats love the filibuster so much that they'll happily sacrifice the lives of millions of women forced to die in childbirth or have their rapists' kid for it. Once Roe is gone it's never coming back, and as long as there remains a 6-3 conservative majority on the court then same sex marriage, sodomy laws and even interracial marriage is next. I thought about this too but I doubt it. Isn't Clarence Thomas' wife white for one thing? And I just don't see how that could even be feasible. Repealing same sex marriage might be on the table for sure and I'm confident that Mississippi and Alabama might welcome both ideas but there are already way too many multi racial citizens. I suppose if the three percenters wanted to go about it, they could try and say White on one side and everyone else on the other but, Jesus, if we reach that stage of the game I really will flee the country.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:06
|
|
|
Plus if you assassinate Manchin he’ll just get replaced by someone further to the right
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:06
|
|
|
BiggerBoat posted:I thought about this too but I doubt it. Isn't Clarence Thomas' wife white for one thing? yeah but Thomas gives off big vibes that he'd easily gently caress himself over to constitutionally remain pure in the eyes of the beautiful law
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:08
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Honestly, and this is to everyone in the thread, if you're not willing to chide your coworkers and talk politics to them the way you do here then your priorities are backwards and you should be doing more in the real world and less posting. This is some real horseshit to claim in here. You aren't posting your own receipts and no one should feel obligated to divulge exactly what they're doing outside of the forums to organize, because of doxxing and also because it's trivial to just lie and say "well I AM trying to organize my workplace, what are YOU doing???" This is just internet tough guy crap where you get to assume that you're the only one living up to your values and everyone else is spineless and doing nothing. This is a place where people can discuss politics and no one here should be under some delusion that ~2000-4000 active posters on SA (many of whom, especially in DND, are not even in the US) are going to be the catalyst for structural change. The fact of the matter is that unless we have some 1 percenters in here or congress critters or pharma execs, everyone in here in the posting mines is as powerless as the next. Getting pissy about the other people on the Titanic not bailing fast enough is childish and unhelpful.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:08
|
|
|
TyrantWD posted:Again with the comic book thinking. Even Trump knew the most the president could do to a senator who defied him is send angry tweets. Trump tried to have all of his political opposition killed via lynch mob and would have succeeded if he and his weren't astronomically incompetent. Pretending that the head of the executive branch of the government can't get some shady poo poo done via the CIA or whatever when they regularly do that kind of poo poo overseas with impunity is ridiculous.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:09
|
|
|
Okay, so elections have consequences and this is all “fair”. For argument’s sake I’ll take that as a given. What I am not hearing from anyone is what the electoral path forward is for protecting abortion rights, when a senator or representative is allowed to be a democrat in good standing while being pro life.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:09
|
|
|
Tatsuta Age posted:yeah but Thomas gives off big vibes that he'd easily gently caress himself over to constitutionally remain pure in the eyes of the beautiful law Easy peasy, say existing interracial and gay marriages are grandfathered in, pull up the ladder. Even Dave Rubin can get on board with that.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:10
|
|
|
The reason the Senate doesnt support reproductive rights when the whole country does is the Senate is undemocratic institution and should be abolished. National polling weighs every response equally. The Senate gives outsized weight to small states, which typically have more rural, conservative voters and views.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:10
|
|
|
Eiba posted:If you think the democrats are poo poo, primary them. Don't pretend you're doing anything to fix things by withholding your vote and letting Republicans win. You're just contributing to making things shittier to make yourself feel better. People try to primary them, and then the Democrats circle the wagons to protect the incumbents. They care more about stymying the left than they do defeating the Republicans.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:11
|
|
|
TyrantWD posted:
chiming in to remind you that yes, by the numbers, their actions were in fact not aligned with what the people who voted for them wanted them to do the American public's opinion has precisely zero bearing on the actions of American politicians, and this has been backed up with data. it is a pleasing fantasy to pretend that no, really, politicians just do what the people tell them, but it has been studied who politicians listen to, and the people it aint.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:11
|
|
|
BiggerBoat posted:I thought about this too but I doubt it. Isn't Clarence Thomas' wife white for one thing? yes but have you considered that he's rich and powerful and the leopards would never eat his face. He's a weird rear end loving originalist who argued Loving v Virginia wasn't really about marriage but cohabitation.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:12
|
|
|
Best Friends posted:Okay, so elections have consequences and this is all “fair”. For argument’s sake I’ll take that as a given. What I am not hearing from anyone is what the electoral path forward is for protecting abortion rights, when a senator or representative is allowed to be a democrat in good standing while being pro life. Blue states like Colorado have already passed laws enshrining abortion rights into law and will act as havens for red states around them. I suspect some of them would defy a federal ban. Colorado has a precedent of that at least with weed. Nationally it is very unclear what path there is forward when the filibuster is in place.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:12
|
|
|
The Shortest Path posted:Trump tried to have all of his political opposition killed via lynch mob and would have succeeded if he and his weren't astronomically incompetent. Pretending that the head of the executive branch of the government can't get some shady poo poo done via the CIA or whatever when they regularly do that kind of poo poo overseas with impunity is ridiculous. When was the last time a US President had the CIA threaten a sitting Senator? The only people who have any power over him are his GOP donors and the people of WV, and they are both thrilled with the job he is doing.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:12
|
|
|
TyrantWD posted:Because this particular battle was lost for a generation back in November 2016. It may have taken time to resolve, but once it was set in motion, it couldn't be undone. Speaking of consequences, I can't help wondering if all that money that was funneled to Clinton from the state Dem parties via the Victory Fund wouldn't have been better spent shoring up those same Dem state parties so they weren't the pathetic husks we see in many states like Florida today. Because even lefties like me who haven't voted for a Dem for president for years still vote Dem at the state & local levels, where it counts, when it seems that the national Dems have done everything they can to cripple the same state parties, or let them rot through benign neglect.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 18:14 |
|
|
Professor Beetus posted:This is some real horseshit to claim in here. You aren't posting your own receipts and no one should feel obligated to divulge exactly what they're doing outside of the forums to organize, because of doxxing and also because it's trivial to just lie and say "well I AM trying to organize my workplace, what are YOU doing???" This is just internet tough guy crap where you get to assume that you're the only one living up to your values and everyone else is spineless and doing nothing. This is a place where people can discuss politics and no one here should be under some delusion that ~2000-4000 active posters on SA (many of whom, especially in DND, are not even in the US) are going to be the catalyst for structural change. I honestly agree with all of that but this is also the thread where I'm repeatedly told the voters are to blame. Getting pissy at the people bailing on the Titanic is totally true and we love blaming them when they're faceless but hate it when someone points at us and points out we're also on the Titanic and could also bail harder. I want to blame the captains but get yelled at when you say it's the captains fault this happened because he has very little power.
|
|
#
?
May 3, 2022 19:13
|
|