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archon loaf is just eorzean soylent
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May 5, 2022 00:58
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No Dignity posted:My point is that Hermes is as contemptible as Valens or Asahi and inflicting trying to cause a universal apocalypse because he couldn't resolve his depression is disgusting beyond belief, like it took Emet Selch a mind shattering tragedy on an unimaginable scale to put him on his path, the Final Days is basically just Hermes' pity party I've heard one position being passed around, that there's a common thread of paternalism/playing-god in Ancient society that is reflected in the actions of Hermes, Emet-Selch, and even Venat. All of them, independently, felt that their perspective gave them the right to make decisions for the entire world: Hermes started his "judgement," Emet-Selch orchestrated generations of strife in the post-Sundering world, and Venat went ahead with the Sundering. All of them pushed forward with their plans, in full knowledge that doing so would inflict pain upon others, with no cards-on-the-table negotiation with the people they would affect. Their motives are all understandable under the circumstances, but which ones are forgivable/contemptible is down to personal taste/morals/experience. Hermes' problem feels least acceptable to me from an outside perspective because, like Eimi said, he's in that phase of depression where you're completely closed off to answers that don't feed your negativity. Even having been there myself, I feel frustrated when I have to deal with it in others, so that leaks over into my feelings about Hermes' failure to realize his own bias (and how he subsequently used it to validate the actions he took on behalf of his society).  Lord_Magmar posted:The obvious thing is that transforming in public is stripping. So yes Hades fought you shirtless in the rain. If the transformation forms are deeply reflective of someone's mentality, sense of self etc. I can see why they would be considered not fit for public. Do you really want everyone around you to bare their soul to you the instant you see them? And if there's mutual societal agreement to not do that, the logical next step is to consider people who show themselves anyway to be obnoxious, gauche attention-seekers. Makes perfect sense. Bloody Emissary fucked around with this message at 01:11 on May 5, 2022 |
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May 5, 2022 01:02
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Hogama posted:Hades liked Ancient society as it was and wanted nothing more than to complete a life of civic duty and comfortably retire (into the Lifestream). Those who went against the flow, like Venat not voluntarily taking the final step after passing the office of Azem on, openly rankled him, but mostly he just kept it to grumbling about formalities and appearances. he liked it but he didn't fit into the stereotypical calm reserved scholar type because he was a catty pompous jerkass. You can love a society and not fully fit into it, that's why seeing him in the past is so good, we see that even if he could somehow remake his society as he wanted some of his dearest connections were people that kept him at least slightly askew from the norm.
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May 5, 2022 01:06
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Badger of Basra posted:Teledji is also just floating freely in the lifestream, we didn’t send him to extra double hell Well, he was in Palace of the Dead for a little while. However canon that is isn't clear, though.
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May 5, 2022 01:24
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Blueberry Pancakes posted:Well, he was in Palace of the Dead for a little while. However canon that is isn't clear, though. Livia and Rhytatyn were, too.
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May 5, 2022 01:34
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Honestly given how weird the Palace of the Dead gets if you go past Nybeth, I'm kinda almost of the opinion it's an increasingly metaphorical/abstract inward journey. By the very bottom isn't it like a weird desolate white void?
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May 5, 2022 01:38
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Jetrauben posted:Honestly given how weird the Palace of the Dead gets if you go past Nybeth, I'm kinda almost of the opinion it's an increasingly metaphorical/abstract inward journey. By the very bottom isn't it like a weird desolate white void? The final strata looks pretty interesting.  
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May 5, 2022 01:41
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I thought Yoko Taro didn't get involved until ShB.
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May 5, 2022 01:52
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The final strata looks pretty interesting. Yeah, that gives me distinctively "either reality is collapsing or you're just diving deeper and deeper into your own psyche or a metaphysical katabasis" vibes.
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May 5, 2022 01:59
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it was nice of my psyche to give me stylish pumpkin earrings
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May 5, 2022 02:05
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Jetrauben posted:Honestly given how weird the Palace of the Dead gets if you go past Nybeth, I'm kinda almost of the opinion it's an increasingly metaphorical/abstract inward journey. By the very bottom isn't it like a weird desolate white void? I made a video on the PotD of the Dead with my theory on this (basically, 'it's so deep it hit the Aetherial Sea and poo poo got weird'), but I think all the zombies actually fit just fine. The story seems to take Tactics Ogre as canon, and the struggle in TO with perfect necromancy was that the soul wouldn't rejoin the body until the moments of (re-)death. It basically tracks with what we know of the Aetherial Sea now. We know it can take rather some time for souls to be properly cleansed of those memories, and that it's really not natural to disturb that flow. So it makes sense that they only got dying lines; from their perspective, they were brought back to their bodies briefly while still in the maelstrom of cleansing that we walked into in the Aitiascope.
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May 5, 2022 02:17
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I feel like calling Hermes irredeemable misses a whole lot of his actual actions. He was driven by his despair and depression but it was reinforced by the fact that he'd just gotten basically the most die-hard confirmation you can get that the universe is a horrible place and that the Ancients were as flawed as the creations they destroyed. And even despite that he wasn't on the "I want everyone to die" train. He actively said he wants to help his people fight against the oncoming despair and part of his reason to mindwipe himself is because he wants to be able to do that unfettered to give his society the best chance. It was still a horrible act to do what he did and he can't escape that. (Literally.) But at the end of the day he was doing it because he believed that even the most flawed deserved life but he was acting on it the way that his society had taught him. Which was an endless drive towards perfection as the ideal which came at a cost to the flawed. (Which is what evolved into the Ascians as they are.) They view themselves as Gods and that includes an inflated sense of self-importance. Hermes' experiments were all meant to prove that there was value and meaning to life and that even the flawed or broken could thrive. He just happened to get the absolute worst possible outcome and it broke him. Yet at no point was he ever the cackling madman who wanted to people to suffer and hurt. He was a broken sad man. (Amon on the other hand was absolutely that but by that point whatever remained of Hermes was ruin.)
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May 5, 2022 02:21
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A part of me kinda wants to see Hildibrand show up in Elpis now. Though more likely it'll just be Sharlyan for him. Hildy pulling an unassuming Ancient into one of his ridiculous mysteries does have its appeal though.
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May 5, 2022 02:38
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The 6.1 page has him in Lakeland.
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May 5, 2022 02:40
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Eimi posted:My own theory for Sharlyan was that they were actually founded by Ellidibus in the First era to keep a record of the world that would be destroyed by the calamities, so that the Ascians would always remember the cost once the world was healed. That Labyrinthos was their calamity fallout bunker and we'd see the Forum working with Fandaniel and the Teleophoroi because they wouldn't know about us just killing all the actual Ascians and Fandaniel loving with them. Hence them knowing if it was a real calamity or not. Sharlayan was founded in the aftermath of the 5th or 6th though. Whichever one was the flood. Nyunkrepf built his ark, picked up survivors and then whisked them all away to the middle of abalathias spine in response to some massive wave. When resources ran short, he went gently caress this I'm out, took his original crew and founded sharlayan on the principles of knowledge and non-violence. ImpAtom posted:I feel like calling Hermes irredeemable misses a whole lot of his actual actions. He was driven by his despair and depression but it was reinforced by the fact that he'd just gotten basically the most die-hard confirmation you can get that the universe is a horrible place and that the Ancients were as flawed as the creations they destroyed. Naw Hermes can get hosed and is in fact irredeemable gutter trash. While yes, everything you said applies to the Hermes we met in Elpis, I am going to remind you that this motherfucker was Amon, definitely in the running for worst person to ever exist in history and also that Amon was his favorite life. So while yes, he was a tortured sad boy who saw injustice and tried to right it through terribly misguided means, he then went on to make a habit of swapping peoples heads with animals for laughs, enslaved piles of dragons, helped spread misery and empire across the the continent and into Meracydia, and was just all around a massive piece of poo poo. His time spent as Fandaniel (modern incarnation, maybe he was a fine Fandaniel on the convocation) isn't any better either! Failboattootoot fucked around with this message at 02:54 on May 5, 2022 |
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May 5, 2022 02:47
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ImpAtom posted:I feel like calling Hermes irredeemable misses a whole lot of his actual actions. He was driven by his despair and depression but it was reinforced by the fact that he'd just gotten basically the most die-hard confirmation you can get that the universe is a horrible place and that the Ancients were as flawed as the creations they destroyed. He didn't mindwipe himself to give his society the best chance, since if he didn't he, Emet-Selch, Hythlodaeus, and Venat could all have worked together to try and fix the final days. He did it because he didn't think it would be fair to the animals he killed if he and the rest got to remember things for their test while the animals couldn't. Hermes wasn't the cackling madman who wanted people to suffer and hurt but he intentionally handicapped his society in ways that increased their chances of suffering and hurting.
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May 5, 2022 02:57
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Failboattootoot posted:Sharlayan was founded in the aftermath of the 5th or 6th though. Whichever one was the flood. Nyunkrepf built his ark, picked up survivors and then whisked them all away to the middle of abalathias spine in response to some massive wave. When resources ran short, he went gently caress this I'm out, took his original crew and founded sharlayan on the principles of knowledge and non-violence. Amon was specifically a broken shattered fragment of Hermes. It's like saying you're the same person as Ardbert. Hellioning posted:He didn't mindwipe himself to give his society the best chance, since if he didn't he, Emet-Selch, Hythlodaeus, and Venat could all have worked together to try and fix the final days. He did it because he didn't think it would be fair to the animals he killed if he and the rest got to remember things for their test while the animals couldn't. He didn't do it to give his society the best chance, he did it to give his society a fair chance. It was an intentional mimicry of how they treated other species.
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May 5, 2022 03:02
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Cleretic posted:I made a video on the PotD of the Dead with my theory on this (basically, 'it's so deep it hit the Aetherial Sea and poo poo got weird'), but I think all the zombies actually fit just fine. The story seems to take Tactics Ogre as canon, and the struggle in TO with perfect necromancy was that the soul wouldn't rejoin the body until the moments of (re-)death. I wasn't so much thinking the zombies as the weird void and the way you encounter people who logically really should not be there.
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May 5, 2022 03:05
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ImpAtom posted:Amon was specifically a broken shattered fragment of Hermes. It's like saying you're the same person as Ardbert. Yeah and when you fight him in the Aitiascope he puts on his Amon form and says that this was by far his favorite form so it turns out that the hosed up science monster is the coolest thing he ever did, according to him.
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May 5, 2022 03:05
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ImpAtom posted:Amon was specifically a broken shattered fragment of Hermes. It's like saying you're the same person as Ardbert. I would actually say more that Amon is just a random guy with his own life and issues that had Hermes' memories, duty and title foisted on him. Other Ascians like Mitron accepted that quite readily, but Amon clearly didn't.
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May 5, 2022 03:08
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It was also the last full life that he lived. Fandaniel was just Amon with a bunch of Hermes memories crammed into him, not Hermes with a bunch of Amon memories.
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May 5, 2022 03:08
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Failboattootoot posted:Yeah and when you fight him in the Aitiascope he puts on his Amon form and says that this was by far his favorite form so it turns out that the hosed up science monster is the coolest thing he ever did, according to him. That was Fandaniel, the broken shard of Hermes, not the whole Hermes.
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May 5, 2022 03:09
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ImpAtom posted:He didn't do it to give his society the best chance, he did it to give his society a fair chance. It was an intentional mimicry of how they treated other species. ImpAtom posted:And even despite that he wasn't on the "I want everyone to die" train. He actively said he wants to help his people fight against the oncoming despair and part of his reason to mindwipe himself is because he wants to be able to do that unfettered to give his society the best chance. I mean, your second quote is right, but that's not what you said the first time.
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May 5, 2022 03:18
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Hellioning posted:I mean, your second quote is right, but that's not what you said the first time. Fair enough. "Fair chance" is a better phrase.
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May 5, 2022 03:24
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As a different point of discussion, with the next Ultimate supposedly coming in 6.3. I wonder if they’ll move to three an expansion, and if so will they toss in the Trial Series as the third set. They reasonably could not do so for ARR as it doesn’t have bonus trials (they maybe could have done something with Ramuh, Leviathan, Moggle Mog and Shiva but I understand why they didn’t if at the time they were certain on the two ults per expansion thing). This would give the possibility of Warring Triad ultimate, which unfortunately lacks a single figure to be built around as the “boss”. The obvious mechanic gimmick I think would be having them actually fight eachother during some mechanics, Sephirot disrupting the scale meteors of Sophia, Zurvan putting ice and fire down during Sephirot slams. But that still leaves what would the final phase be. However I have come upon an idea. In the Omega raids it was confirmed that some of the bosses are based on historical figures, notably Helicarnassus is actually an Allagan noble warped by time and legend. I propose the obvious solution to Warring Triad Ultimate is, Allagan Kefka. The Scientist/General who imprisoned the Triad in the first place, with the Graven Idol being the actual Primals bound together with Neurolinks and Allagan Technology.
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May 5, 2022 03:39
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I highly doubt they'll be able to fit a third ultimate into an expansion's content pipeline. But they don't need to adhere to any sort of pattern or schedule to their releases.
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May 5, 2022 03:43
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Lord_Magmar posted:As a different point of discussion, with the next Ultimate supposedly coming in 6.3. I wonder if they’ll move to three an expansion, and if so will they toss in the Trial Series as the third set. They reasonably could not do so for ARR as it doesn’t have bonus trials (they maybe could have done something with Ramuh, Leviathan, Moggle Mog and Shiva but I understand why they didn’t if at the time they were certain on the two ults per expansion thing). I mean you have Actual Kefka in the game already, you can just combine them all.
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May 5, 2022 03:48
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:I highly doubt they'll be able to fit a third ultimate into an expansion's content pipeline. A schedule helps expectation management and presents a competent and well oiled machine to subscribers, one of the huge failings of WoW (outside the general blizzard garbage lawsuit stuff) is their content pipeline is absolutely in shambles. FFXIV is beating them and they’ve outright said they plan for at least an Ultimate in 6.3. They’re also working to ensure their content pipeline is healthier by shifting from 3 months to 4 months per major patch. From a design perspective, Mr Ozma (as he is known) doesn’t actually do much work on the odd number patches, he’s the savage and ultimate designer and would make dungeons more punishing if allowed. I think there is room given how they describe their design process and team for three ultimates an expansion, it is also something parts of the fan base have been asking for and the dev team do tend to listen to fans. Maybe it wouldn’t work out, but given the reaction to Dragonsong I feel like they’ll at least try it and this would be the time to properly nail down that development pipeline. ImpAtom posted:I mean you have Actual Kefka in the game already, you can just combine them all. This is what I mean but give him and the Idol an Allagan look to make it fit in with the presentation of this being the Allagan behind the Warring Triad as seen in FFXIV.
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May 5, 2022 03:50
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Lord_Magmar posted:The obvious thing is that transforming in public is stripping. So yes Hades fought you shirtless in the rain. Not only that, we fought him shirtless, on the top of a roof in Amaurot. 
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May 5, 2022 03:50
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even if they do three ults this expansion I expect it to just be making up for lost time: some sort of Stormblood-themed MSQ ult (garlean empire ultimate?) and Omega. Then we'll be back onto the original schedule of ultimates being about the expansion before last.
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May 5, 2022 03:52
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Actual Kefka is explicitly not anyone from Etheirys though, the Omega plotline says all the Deltascape stuff is Actually From Omega Glimpsing FF6. Kefka's minion says outright in its description that there is no record of a Kefka and Y'shtola says he's "eerily familiar" (because Dissidia.)
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May 5, 2022 03:58
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cheetah7071 posted:even if they do three ults this expansion I expect it to just be making up for lost time: some sort of Stormblood-themed MSQ ult (garlean empire ultimate?) and Omega. Then we'll be back onto the original schedule of ultimates being about the expansion before last. Omega Weapon Ultimate OwU and then Shinryu/Yotsuyu would be the pattern as previously seen. But lots of people want Warring Triad and Four Lords Ultimates too. Werlyt Weapons as well. If they can make three Ultimates in one expansion and nail down a development pipeline where and Ozma alternates Savage and Ultimate design I don’t see it really hurting anything. They’re not particularly strenuous in terms of art assets, the major delay on Dragonsong was related to testing it as much as anything else, which hopefully with COVID dying down is no longer a problem.
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May 5, 2022 03:59
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The 6.1 page has him in Lakeland. Imagine if we can introduce Feo Ul to Hildibrand. 
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May 5, 2022 04:00
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Yeah I don't think it's impossible that it goes to three ults per expansion, I'm more saying that I don't expect either Heavensward or Stormblood to get three. I expect it to just play catchup and, if they move to three per expac, have Shadowbringers be the first one to get a third.
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May 5, 2022 04:02
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Jetrauben posted:Actual Kefka is explicitly not anyone from Etheirys though, the Omega plotline says all the Deltascape stuff is Actually From Omega Glimpsing FF6. Kefka's minion says outright in its description that there is no record of a Kefka and Y'shtola says he's "eerily familiar" (because Dissidia.) Halicarnassus is Deltascape V3.0 and has been stated outright to actually be based on an Allagan (she’s from a fantasy book that was based on the real Allagan person). Much like Garuda is based on the Allagan in control of the Ixal forces they created.
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May 5, 2022 04:03
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cheetah7071 posted:Yeah I don't think it's impossible that it goes to three ults per expansion, I'm more saying that I don't expect either Heavensward or Stormblood to get three. I expect it to just play catchup and, if they move to three per expac, have Shadowbringers be the first one to get a third. Kohryu is already an existing model for the purpose of making a Four Lords Ultimate, and they’re an extended plot line even compared to The Warring Triad. Playing catch-up seems less interesting than more options for Ultimates to me. Them being out of sync wouldn’t really be an issue, and you could sort of line it up as MSQ Ult, Trial Ult, Raid Ult and it would actually be semi-appropriate. The second boss of the trial series is always the best one anyway and you unlock fighting a previous final raid boss by beating the final raid boss of an expansion. They haven’t yet announced plans for three this expansion, they’ve just said the next Ult will be in .3 instead of .5. I think if they did move to three now would be the time to introduce Bonus Trial Ultimates.
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May 5, 2022 04:06
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Lord_Magmar posted:Halicarnassus is Deltascape V3.0 and has been stated outright to actually be based on an Allagan (she’s from a fantasy book that was based on the real Allagan person). Much like Garuda is based on the Allagan in control of the Ixal forces they created. Sorry, Sigmascape. I'm stupid.
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May 5, 2022 04:09
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If you were going to do a Warring Triad Ultimate, you could probably include a fight with Regula in there at some point.
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May 5, 2022 04:12
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I mean... the Warring Triad are a trio of gods, summoned for a war. Obviously if there were a Warring Triad Ultimate, you'd build up to fighting all three of them simultaneously. Call it 'Crusader', if you must.
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May 5, 2022 04:22
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Four Lords actually has the most resources ready for an Ultimate built on a trial story, since you have two dungeons and a solo duty alongside the usual three fights, PLUS there is, of course, Kohryu that we never actually fight. Weapons has the three fights and a solo duty (perhaps even two if you take Estinien's earlier encounter with a prototype into play), and room for a new capstone fight. Warring Triad has the least immediate stuff, but yeah, Regula and his Ceruleum Servant could fill in some of the blank fight space. Maybe the Minstrel could dream up a scenario where Regula acquires the power of the Triad for himself.
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May 5, 2022 04:27
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