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Fighting Trousers posted:So they're going after IFV now, eh? No no, these are perfectly safe. They need those Infantry Fighting Vehicles to shut down the IVF clinics. Joking aside, yes, I have no doubt they would eventually. They do have more pressing matters beforehand though, such as the evils of contraception and masturbation. Aramis fucked around with this message at 13:33 on May 5, 2022 |
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May 5, 2022 13:29
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CuddleCryptid posted:Can undocumented kids currently even go to public schools? Surely the schools are going to blink at a kid suddenly showing up that doesn't have a birth certificate on file and no immigration papers. Yes, undocumented kids go to public schools. Teachers are already overworked, underpaid, and just want to teach kids. They’re not in the business of moonlighting as ICE agents.
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May 5, 2022 13:40
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Baronash posted:Yes, undocumented kids go to public schools. Teachers are already overworked, underpaid, and just want to teach kids. They’re not in the business of moonlighting as ICE agents. They aren't and they don't want to be, but this is a country that has seriously entertained the idea of mandating teachers be trained and armed rather than doing sensible or useful things, so it wouldn't surprise me if there comes a push for teachers to be mandated reporters of people being in the country without documentation or whatever. ICE already has a habit of setting up outside of schools to snag people when they pick their kids up, so it's not even really a stretch. e: vvvv People say it's no good to call it unfortunate because what is essentially being said with that is "this shouldn't be happening, but it has to." You might mean it in the sense that "going through a medical procedure is unfortunate" but that's not what people hear. It's the same kind of thing that people talk about when they say that they want their leaders to actually lead -- what people say and how things are framed are important in shaping the way they're understood. Abortion is a fairly complicated issue, and most people don't really understand it that well. Elected officials even think that people can just opt to not be pregnant in the event of rapes, so the sort of thing that filters down to uniformed people is usually just "thing bad" or "thing good." Ershalim fucked around with this message at 13:52 on May 5, 2022 |
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May 5, 2022 13:46
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Somebody posted that we shouldn't call an abortion an "unfortunate" occurrence but I don't see why not. It's a deeply emotional, often traumatic, sometimes painful, expensive and very personal undertaking that often leaves the patient sad, depressed and distraught. I find any unwanted health related problem to be rather unfortunate, especially those that involve medical procedures. I don't think that undermines my firm pro choice stance on the issue. If I have to go to the hospital for any reason I consider that an unfortunate situation and I sympathize with those that do.
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May 5, 2022 13:48
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That's really not what they meant though. "Unfortunate", as per the Clinton use, refers to allowing abortions in the first place.
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May 5, 2022 13:53
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Many people do not see getting an abortion as an unfortunate occurrence and insisting that we refer to it as such only adds to the stigma around getting an abortion.
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May 5, 2022 13:53
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I think it's fine to refer to a specific abortion as an unfortunate occurrence when you know the person who got the procedure felt that way about it, but not the concept of abortion generally.
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May 5, 2022 13:58
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BiggerBoat posted:Somebody posted that we shouldn't call an abortion an "unfortunate" occurrence but I don't see why not. you could say that the unwanted pregnancy is the unfortunate occurrence. In pregnancies where it threatens the life of the mother, abortion is a life-saving treatment. I get where you're coming from but it's not always true and that kinda language seems to be associated w pro-life type positions. Kinda like "safe, legal, and rare" sounds pretty good but why stress "rare" unless you think its bad when it happens. Not a woman or an expert but that's what I've read in the past
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May 5, 2022 13:58
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Baronash posted:Yes, undocumented kids go to public schools. Teachers are already overworked, underpaid, and just want to teach kids. They’re not in the business of moonlighting as ICE agents. I meant more the administration who would go "this classroom that should have 28 students has 29", not individual teachers ratting out their own kids. But if the district is not doing that then I'm happy for the kids.
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May 5, 2022 14:09
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:you could say that the unwanted pregnancy is the unfortunate occurrence. In pregnancies where it threatens the life of the mother, abortion is a life-saving treatment. Its this. Abortion is life saving medicine, either directly or indirectly. There's multiple pregnancy and female health issues where abortion is the only solution other than death.
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May 5, 2022 14:09
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Aramis posted:No no, these are perfectly safe. They need those Infantry Fighting Vehicles to shut down the IVF clinics. That's what I get for posting before I've had my tea. I do wonder how that's going to play when they do finally, officially take aim at IVF. Because it's a means for nice wealthy white people to reproduce biologically, and we all know how terribly important that is. 
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May 5, 2022 14:12
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Fighting Trousers posted:I do wonder how that's going to play when they do finally, officially take aim at IVF. Because it's a means for nice wealthy white people to reproduce biologically, and we all know how terribly important that is. Like abortion, laws don't apply to wealthy white people. They'll still have abortion, IVF, etc. The laws are for the little people.
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May 5, 2022 14:15
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Peever posted:Does this bill at least carve out exception for miscarriage? Otherwise any woman who doesn’t give birth can be changed with what, accessory to murder, or manslaughter charges? I learned yesterday that some states already prosecute for miscarriages. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544
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May 5, 2022 14:16
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CmdrRiker posted:I learned yesterday that some states already prosecute for miscarriages. Yeah Missouri is basically like: "We're going to track your periods without your consent and if you show up to a Planned Parenthood and we suspect your pregnant, we'll prosecute"
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May 5, 2022 14:21
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BiggerBoat posted:Somebody posted that we shouldn't call an abortion an "unfortunate" occurrence but I don't see why not. You can call your personal experience unfortunate, you probably shouldn't assume it's unfortunate for someone else though. It's like whenever I hear "That must be hard to live with" about my disability. Do I understand why people think that's a safe assumption? Yeah, but I don't think of it that way and I'm always just confused when people say that. Also I think the original complaints about unfortunate were that pro-choice advocates will try to massage their message by framing abortion as a necessary evil but all that does is leave a gap for anti-abortion advocates to go "So you agree, abortion is evil murder"
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May 5, 2022 14:21
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah Missouri is basically like: "We're going to track your periods without your consent and if you show up to a Planned Parenthood and we suspect your pregnant, we'll prosecute" Great news for people with irregular periods! (for which hormonal birth control is frequently prescribed as a treatment)
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May 5, 2022 14:37
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Many people do not see getting an abortion as an unfortunate occurrence and insisting that we refer to it as such only adds to the stigma around getting an abortion. Yeah; the "abortion is deeply traumatic" tropes were initially propagated by the right in order to justify those anti-abortion "pregnancy centers" used to scare women out of terminating their pregnancies, and to try to justify post-Casey waiting periods. What's deeply traumatic is the state ordering you to use your body as a vessel against your will to bear children, especially in a country like ours, which doesn't consider healthcare to be a human right & in which the barest of social-safety nets like welfare & childcare already have been stripped to the bone. Abortion needn't be justified, and so-called choice supporters who project negative emotions onto the process help feed the "it's icky, but should be legal" mixed-messaging. The right has been extremely successful in getting people to accept this PoV, which is why I'm so critical of Democrats who internalize & perpetuate those tropes.
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May 5, 2022 14:42
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Abortion needn't be traumatic, but it's understandably often a private experience all the same. That said, the common expectation for "justification" for abortions is the result of decades of propaganda aimed at splitting off people who don't understand a lot about the procedure because there is, at first glance, maybe something a little uncomfortable about it for a lot of people, especially if they don't actually probe deeper into the questions of the bodily autonomy of women or when life actually begins. Arist fucked around with this message at 14:48 on May 5, 2022 |
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May 5, 2022 14:46
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Abortion can be traumatic or difficult, but so can any other surgery or medical procedure. It's not an excuse to deny them.
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May 5, 2022 14:50
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RBA Starblade posted:Abortion can be traumatic or difficult, but so can any other surgery or medical procedure. It's not an excuse to deny them. Childbirth is just as likely to be traumatic and difficult.
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May 5, 2022 14:52
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Xombie posted:Childbirth is just as likely to be traumatic and difficult. Life is too at this rate
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May 5, 2022 14:52
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Dealing with right wing governments is traumatic and difficult.
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May 5, 2022 14:53
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Willa Rogers posted:Yeah; the "abortion is deeply traumatic" tropes were initially propagated by the right in order to justify those anti-abortion "pregnancy centers" used to scare women out of terminating their pregnancies, and to try to justify post-Casey waiting periods. I agree with this and you guys raise some good points, so thanks. I've known some women that struggled mightily with the decision and shared it with me - some who opted to give birth and others to terminate - and in my experience based on what they've told me the choice and the procedure was quite difficult for them. None of them indicated to me that it was due to external pressures but maybe it was. A close friend of mine chose adoption and it ate at her for years. She reunited with her daughter about 10 or 15 years ago and it made her really happy. Made us both cry. I was curious, since obviously this news is dominating the conversation, do we have a dedicated thread for it or should we make one? Or is the SCOTUS thread the default option? EDIT RBA Starblade posted:Abortion can be traumatic or difficult, but so can any other surgery or medical procedure. It's not an excuse to deny them. No, of course not. This whole thing is genuinely loving with my mood this week and making me angry and sad.
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May 5, 2022 14:55
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:Many people do not see getting an abortion as an unfortunate occurrence and insisting that we refer to it as such only adds to the stigma around getting an abortion. Is your argument suggesting that "many people" feel that having an abortion procedure is a "fortunate occurrence" or "neutral occurrence"?
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May 5, 2022 15:01
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BiggerBoat posted:I agree with this and you guys raise some good points, so thanks. Oh sorry I wasn't disagreeing with anyone or responding to anything in particular, just throwing in my two cents
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May 5, 2022 15:05
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It should be as easy and convenient to get an abortion as it is to get McDonald's drive through, and it should be treated with exactly the same moral significance as farting.
Xalidur fucked around with this message at 15:14 on May 5, 2022 |
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May 5, 2022 15:10
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:you could say that the unwanted pregnancy is the unfortunate occurrence. In pregnancies where it threatens the life of the mother, abortion is a life-saving treatment. The distinction you're trying to make doesn't differentiate abortion from any other medical procedure. Necessary medical procedures are seen in the light of the thing they are intended to treat. The only "positive" medical procedures are elective ones. It is actually good to correctly class abortion as a necessary medical procedure, rather than a nonchalant elective one. It is portrayed as a last resort because it is a last resort. There is no option beyond it for stopping a pregnancy. No one except a complete idiot is going to be fooled by trying to frame it as the same as taking birth control pills or getting a benign mole frozen off.
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May 5, 2022 15:13
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The Sean posted:Is your argument suggesting that "many people" feel that having an abortion procedure is a "fortunate occurrence" or "neutral occurrence"? Why is it important to you that society tell women that an abortion procedure should be an unfortunate thing? And it's self-evidently a fortunate occurrence to a woman who is trying to get an abortion because she doesn't want to give birth. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 5, 2022 15:15
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Devor posted:Why is it important to you that society tell women that an abortion procedure should be an unfortunate thing? It's not unreasonable for people to loudly state that "actually getting an abortion sucks pretty bad and its not done lightly" when the main opposition is loudly saying "people are having champagne parties where they do drugs and have abortions because they like it so much". It's fortunate that people can have an abortion in the same way that it's fortunate that they can have chemotherapy. That isn't a moral judgement, just a practical acknowledgement that undergoing a medical procedure to solve a problem sucks.
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May 5, 2022 15:21
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Devor posted:Why is it important to you that society tell women that an abortion procedure should be an unfortunate thing? It's "fortunate" to get heart surgery if you need to have a valve replaced. That doesn't mean people will feel positive about being told they need heart surgery. Enforcing nonchalance towards abortion is not honest about the amount of options there are for birth control prior to abortion being the best option, and completely counterproductive towards expressing the necessity of its legality.
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May 5, 2022 15:23
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CuddleCryptid posted:It's not unreasonable for people to loudly state that "actually getting an abortion sucks pretty bad and its not done lightly" when the main opposition is loudly saying "people are having champagne parties where they do drugs and have abortions because they like it so much". You know what sucks worse? Not being able to get a medical procedure to solve a problem. Like noone is running around going 'ooh I love chemotherapy! I hope I get cancer! Can I have a drag off your cigarette?' but you drat well better believe I'ma be first in line to shoot that poison into my veins should they find a tumor.
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May 5, 2022 15:24
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Any discussion about abortion and morality should be immediately stopped in its tracks. Especially since historically abortion legislation has never been fully up to women.
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May 5, 2022 15:26
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Xombie posted:The distinction you're trying to make doesn't differentiate abortion from any other medical procedure. Necessary medical procedures are seen in the light of the thing they are intended to treat. The only "positive" medical procedures are elective ones. No; it's properly called "elective" abortion for a reason, while miscarriages are properly labeled as "spontaneous" abortions. And it rather is like getting a benign mole frozen off, except that it likely takes less time. As far as "taking birth control pills" it's like that too: abortion pills are now the most common method of ending pregnancies for the first time. There are women who are saddened & disappointed by not being able to carry a pregnancy to term for health or other reasons, but there are also women who are saddened & disappointed by having hysterectomies that preclude further pregnancies, and that's not a reason to make abortion a more emotionally fraught experience than it need be. eta: Xombie posted:Enforcing nonchalance towards abortion is not honest about the amount of options there are for birth control prior to abortion being the best option, and completely counterproductive towards expressing the necessity of its legality. You're trying to enforce people's feelings, though, because the most common emotional response I've seen is tremendous relief. No one has to rend their garments or buy into rightwing framing that it's Serious, and You Need to Treat It Seriously. You're also telling on yourself with that remark about birth control. I can't imagine you'd lay similar value judgments on someone getting a vasectomy, and your preaching the use of condoms or the rhythm method instead. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 15:33 on May 5, 2022 |
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May 5, 2022 15:26
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Abortions are cool and good and more people should get them, actually. Women should be drinking champagne and partying it up while getting fetuses removed, and gently caress anyone who says otherwise.
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May 5, 2022 15:26
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I keep trying to get an abortion but am prevented because "I don't have a uterus".
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May 5, 2022 15:29
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CmdrRiker posted:Any discussion about abortion and morality should be immediately stopped in its tracks. Especially since historically abortion legislation has never been fully up to women. Yeah, that's the entire foundation of the issue: To control and punish poor women. It's like the old joke/observation about how if cis-men were the ones who got pregnant, there'd be grape flavored abortion pills you could buy next to the tic-tacs in the checkout lanes for a dollar.
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May 5, 2022 15:36
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The Sean posted:Is your argument suggesting that "many people" feel that having an abortion procedure is a "fortunate occurrence" or "neutral occurrence"? Sure. If I had an unwanted pregnancy I would consider an abortion to be an extremely fortunate occurrence. I’m pro abortion. Like someone else said, the unfortunate occurrence would be the pregnancy.
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May 5, 2022 15:37
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imo abortion is going to remain a controversial issue until capital no longer requires poor people forced into labor by threats of violence (homelessness, starvation, incarceration, etc) and as long as we have a government full of capitalists there will be no meaningful protection of bodily autonomy
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May 5, 2022 15:40
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Xombie posted:The distinction you're trying to make doesn't differentiate abortion from any other medical procedure. Necessary medical procedures are seen in the light of the thing they are intended to treat. The only "positive" medical procedures are elective ones. The only distinction I make is that it isn’t always a life-saving procedure in the traditional sense of the term. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t.
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May 5, 2022 15:45
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BiggerBoat posted:Somebody posted that we shouldn't call an abortion an "unfortunate" occurrence but I don't see why not. But there's another sense of unfortunate and that's what people are criticizing, unfortunate in the sense that there's bad people out there defying God's will by getting sinful procedures even if we have to let them do it for practical reasons. That thinking tends to lead to moral judgments of people in crisis and to laws loving with them and discouraging them, like banning federal funding for it or making people jump through hoops to do it, and that's the kind of thing President Clinton did https://www.vox.com/2019/10/18/20917406/abortion-safe-legal-and-rare-tulsi-gabbard quote:Roe is at risk, advocates have argued that calling for abortion to be “rare” just makes it even harder for people who already struggle to get the procedure — who are disproportionately likely to be poor, people of color, LGBTQ, immigrants, or belong to more than one of these groups — to push for their right to get it. If a politician were talking about how cancer and AIDS are moral issues and we need to listen to the people who think it's God's will to punish sinners with disease, and chemotherapy or antiretrovirals are unfortunate interventions that should be "safe, legal, and rare" would that give you confidence? VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 15:49 on May 5, 2022 |
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