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Silly Burrito posted:I actually agree with Hawley? Oh hell. You really shouldn't. He isn't saying "corporations shouldn't get sweetheart deals" he's saying "Woke corporations shouldn’t get sweetheart deals" which means that he thinks companies that reinforce conservative social issues *should* get special treatment.
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May 6, 2022 20:59
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Yinlock posted:Another important part of Defund The Police is that there's no weaseling around it. With something like "Reform" you can keep funneling money to the cops under the pretense of more training or whatever(this never works), but Defund The Police, under any possible interpretation, means that at the very least the cops are getting less money to terrorize people with. The polling shows that majorities of people see defund the police as "cops are getting less money to protect people with". You have to offer an alternative to go along with "defund". There's no way around that.
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May 6, 2022 21:00
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Silly Burrito posted:I actually agree with Hawley? Oh hell. Yeah but much like Desantis he is just making noise for the election and will never actually follow up on this rhetoric. Florida's going to quietly back out of dissolving the disney government district like 2 days after the election and I don't think Hawley even gets that far. Koos Group posted:Here's another study that examines pre-abortion mental states rather than post-abortion ones. It also finds that stigma is associated with increased negative emotions (which accords with common sense): This reminds me of the conversation around whether people regret gender confirmation surgery because of the suicide rates, and when you actually look at the research you find out people are super happy with the procedures, but society is so cruel that often it leads to overcoming them anyway. Abortion is a medical procedure. Child birth likely has more regret. vvvv That too Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 21:17 on May 6, 2022 |
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May 6, 2022 21:00
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Childbirth is also more deadly to women than abortion is by any measure.
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May 6, 2022 21:10
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Jaxyon posted:Child birth likely has more regret. Dad?
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May 6, 2022 21:10
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CuddleCryptid posted:That entirely depend on how you ask the question. Defunding the police is not popular, but all the polls for shifting money from the cops to social programs show strong support. The entire point of a slogan is to be understandable and persuasive to someone who's never heard anything more than the slogan. If the slogan requires explanation, that's on the same level as a politician on a debate stage telling people to go to hillaryclinton dot com for info on their policies. Epic High Five posted:Is there some other way I'm supposed to interpret these comments other than "yeah don't expect us to do anything"? It's less important than something they failed utterly to do and just sort of moved on from without ceremony? Who is "they" and "us" in this instance? The quote is from a single House Dem, speaking for himself and his own personal priorities, with no commentary or argument added by the person who posted it. That said, I think the statement is extremely clear that Clyburn personally would like to get a different thing passed before getting Roe codified. I have my own interpretations of the implications, of course, but since we lack context (because the article suggests it's a snippet from a larger interview that I can't find online anywhere), reading anything further into it is probably just us projecting our own personal feelings and biases onto Clyburn's words.
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May 6, 2022 21:15
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Main Paineframe posted:The entire point of a slogan is to be understandable and persuasive to someone who's never heard anything more than the slogan. If the slogan requires explanation, that's on the same level as a politician on a debate stage telling people to go to hillaryclinton dot com for info on their policies. There's unfortunately no real punchy way to say Defund The Police And Shift The Money To Poorly-Funded Social Services Rather Than State-Sponsored Terrorists, though. I think they should've started at Abolish The Police and negotiated down from there, the left often makes the mistake of starting from the compromise position.
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May 6, 2022 21:21
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Yinlock posted:There's unfortunately no real punchy way to say Defund The Police And Shift The Money To Poorly-Funded Social Services Rather Than State-Sponsored Terrorists, though. Or call it 'Let the Cops Do Their Jobs' and say its unfair to make big strong protectors and crime fighters do social work poo poo like mediate domestic arguments, deal with homeless and addicts and runaways and prostitutes and other 'social ills' and put money towards that instead. And because those social workers will sometimes need cop protection because sometimes those situations can get hairy, they should probably work together, and since now you've got both cops and social workers working together, it makes no sense to call it a police department, just call it public safety and keep them all under the same budget. Leave unsaid the 'so now money that used to just go to skull breakers now goes to social workers which will be a de facto reallocation of resources.' You paint it as doing the overworked cops a favor by expanding social services they aren't trained to do so take it off their plate, and it'd be a lot more well-received.
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May 6, 2022 21:35
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That might not play well with the people who know that violating their civil rights is what the cops do as their jobs. But it wouldn't be the first time that white activists told minorities that their safety was less important than a rhetorical win.
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May 6, 2022 21:42
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theCalamity posted:While we’re at this, the Democrats need to be more like the GOP rhetorically. Say that the GOP claim to wants big government in your vagina. Say that they want big government in your bedroom to see who you’re loving. Say that the GOP wants to track your periods. That the GOP wants to take away your privacy. Get the GOP out your bedroom by getting them out of government The problem is that this falls under the "Leopards won't eat MY face!" fallacy. "Clearly the GOP is only pushing laws like this in order to punish bad slutty libs, it obviously wouldn't apply to fine, upstanding, white christian conservatives." - What they will all believe right up until the leopard does infact eat their face.
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May 6, 2022 21:45
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Quibbling about the efficacy of the slogan is just bullshit obfuscation intended to redirect responsibility from people in power, which it has accomplished quite successfully. It elides the stark reality that absolutely none of the political class has serious interest in reducing the power of the police state and even with a perfect slogan that 100% of the public agreed to, the political class would still not willingly agree to do anything meaningful to curtail police power. The discussion over it isn't appreciably different than arguing over the optimal way to yell at your living room TV to make the football coach call better plays
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May 6, 2022 21:46
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Jeez it's almost like it's impossible to get a policy implemented when the vast majority of the public disagrees with you. We need to change minds and "Defund" just ain't doing it. I like the "Let Cops Do Their Jobs" idea Oracle mentioned. We don't actually care about the funding, we just want police to stop committing crimes.
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May 6, 2022 21:48
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Main Paineframe posted:The entire point of a slogan is to be understandable and persuasive to someone who's never heard anything more than the slogan. If the slogan requires explanation, that's on the same level as a politician on a debate stage telling people to go to hillaryclinton dot com for info on their policies. I don't think that you necessarily have to have the entire message come through in just the slogan, but it's definitely more useful if it does. However "Defund the police" was bad because you could ask anyone involved what "defund" meant or what they meant by "police" and you'd get a different answer. The issue is that you can't change it much without changing the meaning, and people really pick at the meaning hard in our circles. The counterpoint to that was MAGA, which was of course a signfier of a terrible movement but its a great slogan. "Make America great again". America was great, now its not, let's work to make it great again. The whole foundational basis of America fascism rolled up into a four word phrase that any mouth breathing idiot could understand, and sold to a group of people who brush off nuance like falling snow. There is a reason why it is never going away.
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May 6, 2022 21:48
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Jaxyon posted:That might not play well with the people who know that violating their civil rights is what the cops do as their jobs. And yet polls are telling us those selfsame minorities are not down with defunding the police, which is mainly driven by white leftwing activists.
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May 6, 2022 21:49
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CuddleCryptid posted:The counterpoint to that was MAGA, which was of course a signfier of a terrible movement but its a great slogan. "Make America great again". America was great, now its not, let's work to make it great again. The whole foundational basis of America fascism rolled up into a four word phrase that any mouth breathing idiot could understand, and sold to a group of people who brush off nuance like falling snow. There is a reason why it is never going away. He stole it from Reagan. So, it actually did go away for a long time. Reagan's re-election slogan "It's morning in America" ended up overshadowing the original slogan. 
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May 6, 2022 21:53
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Mellow Seas posted:Jeez it's almost like it's impossible to get a policy implemented when the vast majority of the public disagrees with you. The public doesn't control what the police are allowed to do and no amount of dollar store Don Draper cosplay will render that true
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May 6, 2022 21:54
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Mellow Seas posted:Jeez it's almost like it's impossible to get a policy implemented when the vast majority of the public disagrees with you. The problem is that the right-wingers think that Derek Chauvin WAS "doing his job" when he murdered George Floyd The "Blue Lives Matter" flag is the "Let Cops Do Their Jobs" flag
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May 6, 2022 21:55
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How are u posted:The heistancy to declare victory and do a victory lap on what is perhaps the single largest issue that has motivated the Republican base for decades is telling. I think this ruling really will change the midterm elections in a huge way. Agreed, the backlash will be similar to what would happen if the police were actually defunded.
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May 6, 2022 21:56
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:The public doesn't control what the police are allowed to do and no amount of dollar store Don Draper cosplay will render that true It's actually much closer to being controlled by the public's will than most policies, because this issue is actually entirely under local control. The polls aren't a trick, dude. "Defund" is an 15/85 slogan that you can explain up to a 40/60 policy. Yes, the preferences of the "political class" will always be an obstacle, but public opinion is a real issue here, I would argue the main issue.
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May 6, 2022 21:56
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Mellow Seas posted:It's actually much closer to being controlled by the public's will than most people, because this issue is actually entirely under local control. I understand you would argue that, and you would be wrong Trazz posted:The problem is that the right-wingers think that Derek Chauvin WAS "doing his job" when he murdered George Floyd You say they "think" he was doing his job like they're not correct
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May 6, 2022 21:58
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Mellow Seas posted:It's actually much closer to being controlled by the public's will than most policies, because this issue is actually entirely under local control. I am urging you to sit down and watch your local major network affiliated news broadcast and try and soak up just how much coverage random acts of crime get and how that might play into Americans' deep-seated fear that the Bastards in Blue are the only thing separating them from the mongrel hoards of mad max style raiders all hopped up on the
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May 6, 2022 22:00
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:I understand you would argue that, and you would be wrong Okay well take "what I argue" out of it, do you have any response to the substantive part of the post? Lib and let die posted:I am urging you to sit down and watch your local major network affiliated news broadcast and try and soak up just how much coverage random acts of crime get and how that might play into Americans' deep-seated fear that the Bastards in Blue are the only thing separating them from the mongrel hoards of mad max style raiders all hopped up on the Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 22:03 on May 6, 2022 |
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May 6, 2022 22:01
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Mellow Seas posted:Okay well take "what I argue" out of it, do you have any response to the substantive part of the post? The substantive part of the post is your estimation of poll numbers in response to the argument that poll numbers are orthogonal to police power
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May 6, 2022 22:03
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Mellow Seas posted:Jeez it's almost like it's impossible to get a policy implemented when the vast majority of the public disagrees with you. No, “we” do actually care about the funding. Have you seen police budgets? They’re completely insane, and every dollar that goes towards them is money that could go into the budget of another social service that helps people as opposed to killing them. “It’s a bad slogan” is a smokescreen, always has been.
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May 6, 2022 22:03
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defend is apparently a magic spell that makes bad dems lose regardless of whether or not anybody associated with the party is actually saying it, so it's pretty effective imo
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May 6, 2022 22:04
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Also IIRC there was not a single Dem that ran on "Defunding the Police," it was something that someone somewhere said that was immediately blown up, taken out of context, and conflated to mean "DEMS SOFT ON CRIME!!!"
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May 6, 2022 22:04
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:No, “we” do actually care about the funding. Have you seen police budgets? They’re completely insane. Uncle Boogeyman posted:“It’s a bad slogan” is a smokescreen, always has been. Motto posted:defend is apparently a magic spell that makes bad dems lose regardless of whether or not anybody associated with the party is actually saying it, so it's pretty effective imo
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May 6, 2022 22:06
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Something to consider is that Black Lives Matter polled poorly when it began, and also had its messaging criticized; back when it started (and even today of course) it sure was easy to see people saying "Shouldn't it be All Lives Matter?"Motto posted:defend is apparently a magic spell that makes bad dems lose regardless of whether or not anybody associated with the party is actually saying it, so it's pretty effective imo 
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May 6, 2022 22:07
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Mellow Seas posted:No, it's a bad slogan. I don't think any slogan has ever been more empirically proven to be ineffective. Go back to the drawing board instead of insisting everyone who can read a poll result of "12%" or whatever secretly loves cops. I'm going to maliciously attach a slogan to you, claim it's the worst slogan ever, force you to defend it, and claim you have a "messaging problem," and smugly talk down to you about it. What should that slogan be? I'm thinking "Smear poo poo On The Walls" but I'm open to suggestions Oh, I know! Why do you support "Letting Cops Murder People?" What kind of message are you trying to send??? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Trazz fucked around with this message at 22:11 on May 6, 2022 |
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May 6, 2022 22:08
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If you genuinely think “let the cops do their jobs” is a better slogan than “defund the police,” the solution should be simple: try your slogan out and see if it catches on like “defund the police” has. Let me know how it goes.
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May 6, 2022 22:09
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Srice posted:Something to consider is that Black Lives Matter polled poorly when it began, and also had its messaging criticized; back when it started (and even today of course) it sure was easy to see people saying "Shouldn't it be All Lives Matter?" The BLM slogan is objectively good. "Defund the police" as a slogan is, objectively, a horrifically bad slogan. This is because the plain, clear meaning of the phrase is to take the budget for the police all the way down to zero dollars, which makes people advocating for this seem insane. And yes, the plain meaning of "defund X" in every other context does mean to reduce the budget for X to zero, and that wont change no matter how much people try to yell or explain that it doesn't mean that.
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May 6, 2022 22:12
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I’m still the opinion that defund the police wasn’t a slogan but a demand. From what I remember, the initial demand was abolish the police
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May 6, 2022 22:13
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Trazz posted:I'm going to maliciously attach a slogan to you, claim it's the worst slogan ever, force you to defend it, and claim you have a "messaging problem," and smugly talk down to you about it. Like, guys - the slogan doesn't work. Nothing has changed because of it, and it has gotten votes for Republicans. They are desperate to attach "defund" to the Dems. I don't think any of the Dem response ("nuh uh!," basically) has been effective, but it's a perception they need to reduce in a lot of communities, or they're probably going to lose votes.
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May 6, 2022 22:14
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We should unironically reduce the police budget to 0 dollars thoughRigel posted:The BLM slogan is objectively good. The "BLM slogan is objectively good" until you talk to someone who thinks it's a terrorist organization, how did that happen? I thought it was an "objectively good" slogan? Watching D&D discuss the red herring of "Messaging" when like a third of the country is literally loving brainwashed is pretty funny though
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May 6, 2022 22:15
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Mellow Seas posted:No, it's a bad slogan. I don't think any slogan has ever been more empirically proven to be ineffective. Go back to the drawing board instead of insisting everyone who can read a poll result of "12%" or whatever secretly loves cops. You said yourself you didn’t care about the funding, you just want cops to stop doing crimes. You don’t have a problem with the slogan, you disagree with it as a policy.
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May 6, 2022 22:15
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:You said yourself you didn’t care about the funding, you just want cops to stop doing crimes. You don’t have a problem with the slogan, you disagree with it as a policy.
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May 6, 2022 22:18
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Nearly every chud thinks Black Lives Matter means "Only Black Lives Matter" when in reality we're just saying "Black Lives Matter Too (and we only have to say this because nearly everything in this country is telling us that they don't)" Bad slogan. Easily misrepresented.
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May 6, 2022 22:18
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Like turning the discourse to the slogan in the wake of the Floyd backlash was a legit masterstroke of deflection. The conversation itself is fundamentally premised on the police state being a product of public opinion rather than public opinion being a product of the police state, and it's packaged as an invitation for liberals to show everyone how clever they are by regurgitating marketing pablum that they've passively absorbed through cultural osmosis, which is a siren's song they cannot resist
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May 6, 2022 22:19
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Mellow Seas posted:Leaving aside how deeply weird this post is, I'm not asking anybody to defend "Defund the police" as a slogan, because at this point "Dems are pro-defund" is just Republican messaging. And I agree with the actual goals of defunding the police. So Democrats don't have to "defend" the slogan(since no one actually uses it), but "the slogan doesn't work," and Democrats need to "reduce this perception"(which BTW is a defensive move), BUT they can't just dismiss false claims by saying "Nuh uh,"(even though this is actually the correct course of action)
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May 6, 2022 22:20
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I feel like "defund the police" was a psyop to boost extremist sentiment on the left.
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May 6, 2022 22:22
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