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or snorch posted:I feel like "defund the police" was a psyop to boost extremist sentiment
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May 6, 2022 22:24
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Trazz posted:The "BLM slogan is objectively good" until you talk to someone who thinks it's a terrorist organization, how did that happen? I thought it was an "objectively good" slogan? They were, eventually, mostly unsuccessful because the slogan is so good. The meaning is very clear, and difficult to attack. You can beat people down with propaganda, but just taken by itself without any extraneous bullshit, its a good slogan. Defund the Police is a hilariously bad slogan in that the opponents of the movement just merely have to laugh, nod, and agree that the people saying it really do mean those words. The people using the slogan have to twist themselves into knots trying to explain that the words actually somehow mean something else in this specific case, which make them look like lying weasels.
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May 6, 2022 22:24
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Rigel posted:They were, eventually, mostly unsuccessful because the slogan is so good. The meaning is very clear, and difficult to attack.
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May 6, 2022 22:26
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It’s almost as if cops will murder minorities and white people will find a reason to defend them no matter what the slogan is! Well that can’t be it, let’s keep workshopping this. Someone please call Aaron Sorkin to write a foolproof new slogan that no one will be able to argue with. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 6, 2022 22:26
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it’s just so funny that people here are saying “Defund the Police is a bad slogan, it’s unclear and takes too long to explain” and then the best alternative they can come up with is “Let the police do their jobs.” Really? That’s a clear slogan that doesn’t require explanation? Like I said, try it out if you think it’ll work.
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May 6, 2022 22:27
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CubanMissile posted:It’s almost as if cops will murder minorities and white people will find a reason to defend the no matter what the slogan is! Well that can’t be it, let’s keep workshopping this. Someone please call Aaron Sorkin to write a foolproof new slogan that no one will be able to argue with. The slogan can be bad and that can be true at the same time. The 70+% of black and Hispanic people who oppose "Defund the Police" and the fact that the policy goes from 15% approval to 42% approval when you explain the entire context means there is a fundamental messaging issue.
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May 6, 2022 22:29
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theCalamity posted:I’m still the opinion that defund the police wasn’t a slogan but a demand. From what I remember, the initial demand was abolish the police It was, but it shifted when people started asking what we should do instead an a surprising number of people went "we'll just have armed citizens banding together to solve things" which in common vernacular is called a "posse" and that does not have good history in this nation.
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May 6, 2022 22:30
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Leftists: Defund the Police Public: No, we don't want that, crime is really bad. Leftists: Lol, Democrats suck at messaging. I want the police to be dismantled and a new civil servant force created in its stead, but that's a position most people do not share. Thus making that the thrust of my message is inherently self-defeating. This isn't a negotiation so staking out an extreme position is not helpful. You have to build support and in-roads among people, and you can't do that with a rigid extreme position. Oracle posted:And yet polls are telling us those selfsame minorities are not down with defunding the police, which is mainly driven by white leftwing activists. the Twitter effect.
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May 6, 2022 22:30
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"We need to solve the messaging issue with better slogans that brainwashed people won't be brainwashed into misconstruing!"
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May 6, 2022 22:30
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"BLM came to be accepted because it was such a sound slogan that nobody could deliberately misconstrue" is perhaps the most divorced from reality take I have ever read in this subforum (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 6, 2022 22:31
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:You said yourself you didn’t care about the funding, you just want cops to stop doing crimes. You don’t have a problem with the slogan, you disagree with it as a policy. Mellow is pointing out that the slogan is actively harmful towards reaching the desired policy outcome. If we lived in a situation where, hypothetically, doubling all police budgets would result in the cops stopping doing crimes then I assume everybody here would take that deal. Outcomes matter, not slogans. This particular slogan is not going to get anybody who has been shouting it the outcome that they are looking for.
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May 6, 2022 22:33
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Trazz posted:And then I look out my window and see how many of my neighbors have the Blue Stripe flag, would you like to explain that to me? I'm in a deep dark red state and I very rarely see it anymore aside from the odd bumper sticker or decal on a truck window maybe once a week. I see Trump stickers all day long, but blue stripe not so much. Maybe a couple random houses here and there, thats it.
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May 6, 2022 22:33
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How do you even make a slogan that explains the position of "move some police funding to social services" effectively? "Defund the police" just sounds like you want to take money from cops and nothing else, so what slogan effectively conveys the second part of the position?
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May 6, 2022 22:34
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Trazz posted:"We need to solve the messaging issue with better slogans that brainwashed people won't be brainwashed into misconstruing!" This is the issue ultimately. There's an entire history and existing propaganda systems that have to be undermined to get through to people.
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May 6, 2022 22:34
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Rigel posted:I'm in a deep dark red state and I very rarely see it anymore aside from the odd bumper sticker or decal on a truck window maybe once a week. I see Trump stickers all day long, but blue stripe not so much. Maybe a couple random houses here and there, thats it. That's nice but I literally live in SoCal and they're everywhere lol Also the existence of that flag is diametrically opposed to the BLM movement BTW!
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May 6, 2022 22:34
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Rigel posted:I'm in a deep dark red state and I very rarely see it anymore aside from the odd bumper sticker or decal on a truck window maybe once a week. I see Trump stickers all day long, but blue stripe not so much. Maybe a couple random houses here and there, thats it. It’s the exact opposite in every red state I’ve been in over the past two years. Blue line stickers are everywhere. Trump flags are still common but the apparel and stickers are ge tiring more rare. Blue lives bs is THRIVING.
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May 6, 2022 22:35
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Rigel posted:I'm in a deep dark red state and I very rarely see it anymore aside from the odd bumper sticker or decal on a truck window maybe once a week. I see Trump stickers all day long, but blue stripe not so much. Maybe a couple random houses here and there, thats it. it's much more of a blue state conservative social symbol than anything. red states have less of that because everyone is just assumed to be pro-cop already, thus less reason to slap that sticker on your truck. In my experience anyway.
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May 6, 2022 22:36
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:"BLM came to be accepted because it was such a sound slogan that nobody could deliberately misconstrue" That would be a pretty stupid opinion if anyone on this board had it, I agree. For a more substantive response, there no longer is a serious attempt to turn people against it anymore aside from fringe groups and the occasional angry politician throwing a tantrum. Hell, Corporate America has spoken and warmly embraced the slogan. Its even gotten the ultimate American cultural blessing from the national football league. Attacking BLM is now just a thing lovely conservatives quietly grumble at each other about.
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May 6, 2022 22:38
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Conservatives responded to the BLM movement by radicalizing themselves into wannabe Punisher-style vigilantes but sure, it's an "objectively good" slogan in a way that "Defund the Police" isn't BTW conservatives think that "Defunding the police" is what the BLM movement is trying to do anyway! It's not a slogan to them, it's one of the goals of the "objectively good" BLM slogan!
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May 6, 2022 22:39
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Rigel posted:For a more substantive response, there no longer is a serious attempt to turn people against it anymore aside from fringe groups The Republican party isn't really a "fringe group" lol
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May 6, 2022 22:39
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A real good message is dems actually deliver on the promises they made while campaigning instead of using the struggle of people as a fundraising opportunity (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 6, 2022 22:41
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Trazz posted:The Republican party isn't really a "fringe group" lol The Republican party is no longer spending serious time, effort, or energy trying to convince people that actually BLM is bad. (maybe they can yell at rabid crowds within the safety of a Trumpian rally during a primary, but thats it) Outside their base they have definitively lost that argument and have moved on to other things that sway voters.
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May 6, 2022 22:41
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You know how I know Defund the Police is a good slogan? Because it’s being used by activists all over the country, it’s getting airtime on every news outlet in the country, and it’s done more to mainstream the idea of taking money away from police budgets than anything else in my lifetime. You know how I know no one here can come up with a better slogan? Because no one here has come up with a better slogan.
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May 6, 2022 22:42
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Rigel posted:I'm in a deep dark red state and I very rarely see it anymore aside from the odd bumper sticker or decal on a truck window maybe once a week. I see Trump stickers all day long, but blue stripe not so much. Maybe a couple random houses here and there, thats it. Anecdotes are anecdotes. I live in an dark blue city in a light blue state and I'd say about 33% of all the trucks I see in town have a blue lives matter decal.
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May 6, 2022 22:42
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Rigel posted:The Republican party is no longer spending serious time, effort, or energy trying to convince people that actually BLM is bad. They have definitively lost that argument and have moved on to other things that work. Even Kyle Rittenhouse made a point to say he supports BLM, lol.
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May 6, 2022 22:42
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Rigel posted:That would be a pretty stupid opinion if anyone on this board had it, I agree. Why do you believe this happened exactly
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May 6, 2022 22:43
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Rigel posted:The Republican party is no longer spending serious time, effort, or energy trying to convince people that actually BLM is bad.
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May 6, 2022 22:43
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:Why do you believe this happened exactly Because there was a national outpouring of sympathy following George Floyd and BLM was highly associated with that event. BLM had been around for 5+ years prior to that, but only really became ubiquitous and mainstream after that. Plus, it's a lot harder for a random non-political person to get into an explanation for why they don't agree with the phrase "Black Lives Matter" without coming off bad or requiring a lot of context.
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May 6, 2022 22:47
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Rigel posted:The Republican party is no longer spending serious time, effort, or energy trying to convince people that actually BLM is bad. (maybe they can yell at rabid crowds within the safety of a Trumpian rally during a primary, but thats it) Outside their base they have definitively lost that argument and have moved on to other things that sway voters. I remember thinking this wrt to normal vanilla gay rights, but the recent FL bill shows that regressives still care about all the things they hate and they will comeback to a issue when their stupid little brains of rage and hate remembers a thing.
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May 6, 2022 22:49
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The republican party very much still thinks BLM is bad and spends vast amounts of effort saying so it, but they aren't trying to convince anyone that doesn't already believe that.
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May 6, 2022 22:51
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Trazz posted:The problem is that the right-wingers think that Derek Chauvin WAS "doing his job" when he murdered George Floyd  Where are you getting this broad generalization from?Most right-wingers didn't think Chauvin was "doing his job". According to a YouGov poll soon after the murder, 68% of Republicans thought Chauvin should be arrested. Even Trump condemned Chauvin.
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May 6, 2022 22:51
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Kalit posted:
They have no problem with the police murdering people, they just didn't want to look bad by admitting this before an election lol
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May 6, 2022 23:00
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Because there was a national outpouring of sympathy following George Floyd and BLM was highly associated with that event. BLM had been around for 5+ years prior to that, but only really became ubiquitous and mainstream after that. Plus, it's a lot harder for a random non-political person to get into an explanation for why they don't agree with the phrase "Black Lives Matter" without coming off bad or requiring a lot of context. It was actually extremely loving easy to take issue with as a slogan and it was done all the time. It was so easy that it had an equivalently punchy counter-slogan that required you to explain to non-political people why an anodyne positive statement that implied universal equality was actually a white supremacist dogwhistle But more to the point, why exactly was it considered a fringe movement slogan before the Floyd murder? If it was such a great slogan, why did it poll like poo poo for five years before viral execution footage led to riots?
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May 6, 2022 23:00
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Kalit posted:
That's a bit of an outlier because of the video. People saw Chauvin doing a murder, and they didn't much care for it. In the abstract, conservatives overwhelmingly support police brutality and summary execution of the bad people, but when faced with the reality of what that looks like, they waffle. What people largely object to is how the sausage is made; they love the sausage itself.
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May 6, 2022 23:04
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Yeah, what made BLM a "Good slogan" after George Floyd was murdered but not after Tamir Rice was murdered? It was the same slogan then as it is now.
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May 6, 2022 23:05
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Trazz posted:They have no problem with the police murdering people, they just didn't want to look bad by admitting this before an election lol So... people who were polled about Chauvin were lying to YouGov because of an upcoming election? I'm getting more and more confused by your claims....
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May 6, 2022 23:06
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:A real good message is dems actually deliver on the promises they made while campaigning instead of using the struggle of people as a fundraising opportunity Yeah, at the end of the day it doesn't really matter if Defund the police is a good slogan or not. Both parties have stood in firm opposition of it even when they know what it means and are currently blaming the existence of the slogan for an increase in crime even though no one has defunded their police. It really doesn't matter if regular people understand what it means (and they obviously generally do) since politicians don't actually make decisions based on popular sentiment. I think when we talk about slogans and convincing people that there is an idea that you need to reach 50%+1 in the market place of ideas and then politicians have to inact the popular idea. But that's not really how it works, the message needs to energize and resonate with those who understand it, not be something that everyone will latch onto and agree with. And politicians obviously know what it means and could Defund the police if they thought it was a good idea. They just don't think it's a good idea and their messaging is that anyone who thinks it is should shut the gently caress up.
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May 6, 2022 23:06
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Kalit posted:So... people who were polled about Chauvin were lying to YouGov because of an upcoming election? I'm getting more and more confused by your claims.... I dunno if you've ever met a right-winger but they will literally lie to everyone including their own children, so yeah, most of them have no qualms about lying to pollsters
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May 6, 2022 23:07
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:It was actually extremely loving easy to take issue with as a slogan and it was done all the time. It was so easy that it had an equivalently punchy counter-slogan that required you to explain to non-political people why an anodyne positive statement that implied universal equality was actually a white supremacist dogwhistle BLM didn't poll like poo poo. It was basically 40/40/20 Support/Oppose/Don't Know in 2017, had positive polling in 2018, and exploded after George Floyd. The worst it ever polled was a net -5. The worst Defund polled was a net -72. https://civiqs.com/results/black_lives_matter?annotations=true&uncertainty=true&zoomIn=true Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 23:11 on May 6, 2022 |
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May 6, 2022 23:07
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Oracle posted:And yet polls are telling us those selfsame minorities are not down with defunding the police, which is mainly driven by white leftwing activists. Polls don't actually say that, they say that if you ask it slightly differently people support it very well. "let the police do their jobs" is incredibly tonedeaf to sell to a community that knows that the job of police is to harass them. And I can tell you in LA police reform activist groups support defunding, and those groups are predominately people of color. The job of the police is to harass and hurt minorities, Oracle. What the gently caress made you think that is a good slogan? Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Leftists: Defund the Police Crime isn't "really bad". It's at a statistical low point following a trend for decades. Areas that are "high crime" don't need more police because they're already overpoliced. There's a significant amount of time and money spent on propaganda that says that crime is bad and police are the solution. And when crime is "really bad" under a "tough on crime" regime, people don't question whether or not "tough on crime" is effective, they just try and get tougher on crime. People do not have clear ideas on how bad crime is and what can be done to fix it. The are told that more cop spending is always the answer, constantly, and so they are resistant to any idea that reducing spending. The best slogan in the world isn't going to change the fact that a significant portion of TV time is spent scaring people about crime and glorifying police.
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May 6, 2022 23:08
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