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The SS used the sonnernand aswell how can we not assume this guy was actually a waffle SS hitman sent to help the MAGA movement?
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May 15, 2022 16:42
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DarkCrawler posted:It is a necessary step towards the solution at a larger level. Not a solution on its' own. If this was your position I would think it's reasonable and agree with you. But you take it several steps further into a really bizarre place by saying that addressing material conditions is not just unnecessary, but counterproductive. Just as a reminder, this was your original post on the subject: DarkCrawler posted:Now imagine living in the same country with these obvious monsters, and thinking they're good people who are just scared and confused and that you should talk to them over a period of years, appeal to their material conditions and turn them into socialist allies. You're strawmanning the left as wanting to buddy up with fascists and magically turn them into socialists. You seem to be arguing that severing is the only way to stop fascists, not just that it's a necessary step.
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May 15, 2022 16:43
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Nucleic Acids posted:It's neo-nazi apologia, just like every other time liberals try to rationalize away Azov being Jew hating freaks. That's laughably false from her very post. You guys are really doing a great job at trying to reframe this about her defending Azov rather than simply pointing out it likely has nothing to do with Azov, but everything to do with both groups being tied to White supremacist symbols. How is that 'defending white supremacy' and 'rationalizing' it. That's straight up misrepresenting the argument so you can score ideological points.
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May 15, 2022 16:43
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Nucleic Acids posted:It's neo-nazi apologia, just like every other time liberals try to rationalize away Azov being jew hating freaks. Saying that the Azov batallion did not in fact invent or have any meaningful ownership of a common neo-nazi symbol is not saying they're not dipshit fascists. It'd be like calling the Valknut a Wagner Group symbol because those dipshits use it. TGLT fucked around with this message at 16:51 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 16:44
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cat botherer posted:There seems to be a definite uptick in liberal hostility towards leftists (not just D&D) Liberals are being hostile to people who continually insist on blaming them for the actions of conservatives. Which is actually not most leftists, but does describe a lot of posters here (and probably the twitter circles you're also seeing it in) pretty well. It's not the duty of liberals to be your punching bag. So yeah, you're gonna catch some hostility, sorry.
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May 15, 2022 16:49
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 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 15, 2022 16:51
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Mellow Seas posted:Liberals are being hostile to people who continually insist on blaming them for the actions of conservatives. Which is actually not most leftists, but does describe a lot of posters here (and probably the twitter circles you're also seeing it in) pretty well. It's not the duty of liberals to be your punching bag. So yeah, you're gonna catch some hostility, sorry. I'd say it's more that liberals need a punching bag themselves rather than admit that the people they blindly support are failing yet again.
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May 15, 2022 16:52
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using a corporate website like imgflip instead of open source software like gimp is poor praxis
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May 15, 2022 16:52
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Nucleic Acids posted:I'd say it's more that liberals need a punching bag themselves rather than admit that the people they blindly support are failing yet again. Could we knock it off with the ""liberals liberals LIBERALS" posting poo poo? Its just white noise at this point and loving annoying at that Its one thing to discuss the failing of liberals to actually recognize that the Dems suck, its another to just turn it into tokenism so you can have someone to be angry about. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:07 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 16:53
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The conservative voting base is moving away from Trump and is primed for the next GOP fascist in line https://twitter.com/ByronYork/status/1525842434919485440
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May 15, 2022 16:58
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https://www.jacobinmag.com/2022/04/ukraine-russia-putin-azov-neo-nazis-western-media Nonwithstanding that Twitter post (its content was supposed to be an example of liberal tolerance of fascism, when convenient), Azov apologia has very much been a thing. cat botherer fucked around with this message at 17:03 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 17:01
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Fister Roboto posted:You're looking at a broad societal problem through an individualist lens. Nobody wakes up one morning and says "welp I guess I'm going to be a fascist". It's a long process of radicalization that doesn't really have any discrete steps but one of the root causes is deteriorating material conditions. Likewise, no fascist is going to wake up one morning and say "welp my material needs are met, guess I'll stop being a fascist", and nobody is actually arguing this (this is entirely a strawman you invented). But what does happen is that broadly speaking, fewer and fewer people are impacted by that root cause that causes radicalization into fascism. You know, kind of like how if you want to reduce crime you also have to address the root causes that cause people to commit crime. It's not as personally satisfying as your disassociation theory, but neither is your theory going to magically make fascists stop being fascists. I appreciate this post and you're right that people don't just flip a switch and arrive at Full Fash anymore than I arrived at my far left ideology suddenly, in some sort of vacuum or the second I went to college. The far right feels the same anger, frustration, powerlessness, disappointment in government, economic pressure and sense of desperation that the left does and a palpable sense that America is rapidly dying but that's where the similarity ends and there is no middle ground to be reached with white supremacists and nazis. But, by and large, the same things that drive anyone to that sort of thing - joining gangs, becoming cops or prison guards, or becoming involved in cults - is to me, like you said, largely due to social conditions, fear and the system. It's systematic issues entrenched over time that drive depression and poor mental health just in general. The richest nation in the world should, in theory, lead to a happier, more educated and well adjusted populace but when everything is greed, guns and god it's not healthy. 95% of us are upset with the system and rightfully don't think it's doing enough. We're all upset with our choices of political candidates and their performance once they get elected. We all hate out jobs and the bullshit that goes with them. We're all pissed at income disparity and having to work harder for less with every passing year while corporations rob us blind. It comes down to who you blame and that's where the fascist rational falls apart because they blame the weakest and poorest (victims) instead of the most powerful and rich. Well, except the for Jewish people that they hate for controlling banks and poo poo. And it always has to be a non white race. Heck Yes! Loam! posted:The conservative voting base is moving away from Trump and is primed for the next GOP fascist in line I'll believe it when I see and strongly believe we will get DJT2.0 in 2024, but I agree with your opinion on it and my main takeaway from this poll as that they need a bigger, smarter more polished and effective rear end in a top hat. Not that anything Trumps is espousing is going too far or wrong. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 17:05 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 17:02
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Bel Shazar posted:Neither deprogramming nor severing works effectively. The effective method has been large amounts of brutal violence. When you get to that point through excessive tolerance of fascists, sure. I hope that U.S. isn't a at that point yet but if it is, that's bad news to self-described anti-fascists who think not calling their fascist grandma is a step too far already. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:if only there was some underlying force that produced these people, which could be opposed I have plenty of political platform and means that accompany not being nice to fascists in defeating fascists. But the idea of not talking to their fascist friends and family is so abhorrent to Americans that I don't usually get to that point. I have already said this though, so I am not sure why you bothered to write what you wrote. Do you really think that "not talking to grandma" is the beginning and the end, or do you focus on that because you don't have an argument against the effectiveness of hate? What do you think, out of interest, that the underlying force is? How do you resist it without also resisting the people who ascribe to it?
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May 15, 2022 17:03
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cat botherer posted:https://www.jacobinmag.com/2022/04/ukraine-russia-putin-azov-neo-nazis-western-media That's fine to call that out, but that's not what that twitter post was doing which you were using as an example.
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May 15, 2022 17:04
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When you see a black sun you should go "hey its the diet swastika" not "Azov did this." Like that's why it kept appearing in all those pics of Azov members without anyone who published the pics noticing, it's the Mount Shasta swastika that isn't instantly recognizable by some people. Some of us are just terminally addicted to politics or black metal and see it and know what it is instantly. vvvv A buddy was telling me yesterday (no link sorry) that it was being planned openly in a discord server, so I'm sure discord is going to rightfully get asked a lot of questions why their systems didn't pick this up Nazzadan fucked around with this message at 17:08 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 17:05
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There was a lot of info yesterday about how the Buffalo shooter had been planning this for months and had it all posted online. It included plans for which gun to use as well as a diagram of the store. The tweets I saw about it have been removed, does anyone have a different source for it by chance? It seems like all the discourse about this is about tucker Carlson and Ukraine, and not about the fact that the police/feds completely dropped the ball. Maybe they were too busy trying to decipher Gunna lyrics.
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May 15, 2022 17:06
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CommieGIR posted:That's fine to call that out, but that's not what that twitter post was doing which you were using as an example. To me, this is pretty clearly carrying water for Azov battalion - the Sonnerud is literally in their flag. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_the_Azov_Battalion.svg edit To sum up: She said the Sonnenrad is a white supremacist symbol - as such, people who display are usually fascists. She said maybe some guys had stuff with it, which implies she accepted that some Azov guys might be Nazis. Nowhere did she mention it was a Neo-Nazi battalion, despite everything about them. So, this is pretty clearly a dog-whistly, wishy-washy defense of Azov. cat botherer fucked around with this message at 17:17 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 17:12
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Serious question: white supremacists and neo-nazis seem to have just.... a really weirdly enormous number of symbols associated with their movements and hateful philosophy. Why? It seems to be an excessive number of symbols and letters and phrases, etc. Is there any particular reason why they felt they needed to come up with enough symbols to fill up a small book? Most groups don't go this deep to create things to identify other members of their group. Did they just keep coming up with more to fill their skin with ink and jackets with stupid patches, or what? Rigel fucked around with this message at 17:18 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 17:13
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DarkCrawler posted:What do you think, out of interest, that the underlying force is? How do you resist it without also resisting the people who ascribe to it? In order 1) capital 2) Typically you redirect their anger at capital via empathy. Pretty easy when they bring up a bill they are upset about. When culture war bullshit comes up ask them how that is feeding their family or lining their pockets. Works so far for me. At the very least it shuts them up.
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May 15, 2022 17:13
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Sincere request please re-open dark crawlers quarantine thread if we're going to do this. I feel compelled to start copy and pasting some of the excellent refutations of his little thesis and neither I nor anybody else likely wants that. Honestly I really strongly believe with as broad a definition of fascist as is presented or could be inferred in American culture and politics, DC's is an infuriatingly counter-productive ideology. It's been discussed at length and actually really pisses me off, I can't be the only one. Said poster doesn't even live in the US. I don't believe in "blocking" people in a discussion forum, but it would be just so thematically appropriate in this case.
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May 15, 2022 17:19
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Rigel posted:Serious question: white supremacists and neo-nazis seem to have just.... a really weirdly enormous number of symbols associated with their movements and hateful philosophy. Why? part of it is that the yearning for an imagined past thing is a big attachment to mysticism, but a bigger part of it is that openly identifying as one still results in social opprobrium American queer culture in the 20th century was similarly full of symbols, phrases, and codes that were indecipherable to outsiders, it's just that the codes for 'I am gay and would like to find other gay people, are you also?' are a lot less sinister than the codes for 'I would like to kill all minorities, do you also?' look up Naval Intelligence's search for Dorothy sometime, it's absolutely hilarious. enough gay people were identifying themselves to one another as 'Friends of Dorothy' that they thought there was some Gay Command Center code named Dorothy that they could bring down.
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May 15, 2022 17:25
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cat botherer posted:The second tweet says in part, "From the second tweet: I’m sure some Azov Battalion guys have posted stuff with a sonnenrad on it, but the symbol is not an Azov thing; " No, its not. She's countering the claim that the shooter was using it to create a connection specifically to the Azov Battalion, when its a very common White supremacist/Nazi symbol used worldwide by other white supremacist groups as well. You seriously need to stop digging this hole. Nowhere in her post did she say that Azov is NOT White supremacist nor denied that they were Nazis. That's entirely a figment of your imagination. At this point, you've made this entire shooter MORE about Azov than anything else and have entirely gone off the rails about the White Supremacist shooter to create a link between Azov and the shooter, and that's really loving bizarre.
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May 15, 2022 17:29
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cat botherer posted:The second tweet says in part, "From the second tweet: I’m sure some Azov Battalion guys have posted stuff with a sonnenrad on it, but the symbol is not an Azov thing; "
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May 15, 2022 17:29
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cat botherer posted:There seems to be a definite uptick in liberal hostility towards leftists (not just D&D) since the SCOTUS leak. I guess its just a normal impulse to circle the wagons and try to maintain ideological unity and group cohesion when closely-held beliefs are shown to be false. Honestly, I don't even see most liberals talking about leftists now...or ever, really. People here seem to think that they see the left as some equally massive existential threat that needs to be defeated at all costs...but you have Bernie in the Senate and like six people in the House. They've already defeated you. Why would you concern yourself with something that has no chance of really doing damage? All the liberals have built of patronage networks, name recognition, and even local state/city aid/political/church group support that ensures their continuing success and are not above utilizing the politics of hate and danger if they require it. The left thinks it doesn't need to engage in any dirty dealings or propaganda, that all they need to do is to point out how nice the things they will do once they get elected, and it fails every time except in the most progressive constituencies. It is almost effortless to fight against someone who refuses to play by the same rules. An efficient strategy for leftists would be to build up massive hostility towards fascists (no, not the only thing) and then crucify anyone who even appears to cooperate with them - something the radical right-wing has already perfected in the opposite way, which is why the entire party is doing what they want. But that requires being mean to fascists that you might know, and even without that, being part of a movement that is openly hostile to them and all they represent. virtualboyCOLOR posted:In order I mean, if the aim is to shut them up...not talking to them seems to be the number 1 thing. But I don't think it changes the underlying fascism. Even beyond you know, fascism, I've never really understood hanging out with someone if they need to hide their true selves and opinions in order for it to be tolerable. Or having to do it yourself. BRJurgis posted:Sincere request please re-open dark crawlers quarantine thread if we're going to do this. I feel compelled to start copy and pasting some of the excellent refutations of his little thesis and neither I nor anybody else likely wants that. Honestly I really strongly believe with as broad a definition of fascist as is presented or could be inferred in American culture and politics, DC's is an infuriatingly counter-productive ideology. It's been discussed at length and actually really pisses me off, I can't be the only one. Said poster doesn't even live in the US. By all means. It was certainly active enough. I maintain that the only reason why it is so infuriating to so many people is a) the personal aspect and b) you can't whine about liberals since I'm coming at you from the left. It doesn't actually have anything to do with the strength of the argument since I pretty clearly and exhaustively demonstrated why it is both necessary and works. That would explain why million rehashes of "liberals!" is ok but why a single thread got so many complaints they needed to shut it down for the mental health of moderators. And the definition of fascist is definitely less broad then many people in this thread define fascist by (liberals!). DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 17:33 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 17:29
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DarkCrawler posted:
Because that isn’t the aim but you can at least plant seeds of doubt in their brain. Also I am not advocating to never distance oneself. Folks should obviously do that if a family member, friend, whatever is toxic. I’m only saying find a common thing they hate in capital and redirect their focus on it. If they continue the fascist route then do what works for you. Life’s too short.
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May 15, 2022 17:46
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Rebel Blob posted:You should take a moment for self reflection. Why, after the tragic deaths of ten human beings in an act of white supremacist terrorism, are you so caught up in proving that a random woman on Twitter isn't condemning the Azov Battalion strongly enough? Frankly, your obsession with this dead-end rabbit-hole of a conversation, considering its context, is blinkered at best and monstrous at worst. why in the wake of that tragic event is this woman caught up in defending a white supremacist militia from affiliation with a white supremacist mass shooter wearing the same symbols. fascists are bad, op, and should be opposed. and when you see liberals arguing that the fascists are okay to support, just this once, it is right and proper to push back on that sentiment. there is a reason there were donation links to fascist organizations in this forum, and there is a reason there are no longer. you can, in your own small way, make the world a better place, by tamping down on the liberal reflex to support fascists when threatened. alternately, you can throw your lot in with Azov and company, and trust that the face-eating leopard will never get around to any faces you care about. this approach consigns an awful lot of people to horrible deaths at the hands of an energized right wing, but hey, if you're lucky, you won't be one of them!
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May 15, 2022 17:59
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DarkCrawler, if you're going to do this shtick, could you at least do so academically and make a case for an aristocracy using Aristotle's case for such instead of just using his same "the masses are not to be trusted" argument but with far less tradition and far less methodology? For a forum that prides itself on intellectual debate, it's astonishing how little intellectualism is actually on display.
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May 15, 2022 18:08
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:fascists are bad, op, and should be opposed. and when you see liberals arguing that the fascists are okay to support, just this once, it is right and proper to push back on that sentiment. lemme know when you run into the liberal saying that fascists are okay to support, ideally without needing to say that "ukraine" is synonymous with "fascists" because the example you're whining about is not saying anything like that.
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May 15, 2022 18:10
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Probably Magic posted:DarkCrawler, if you're going to do this shtick, could you at least do so academically and make a case for an aristocracy using Aristotle's case for such instead of just using his same "the masses are not to be trusted" argument but with far less tradition and far less methodology? For a forum that prides itself on intellectual debate, it's astonishing how little intellectualism is actually on display. Why do you believe that is the case I am making, and is it possible for you to quote me? Masses are not your problem, if the masses could decide Democrats would be coasting from election to election. United States is not a democracy. Because if not, don't lecture others on intellectualism if you preferred method of debate is inventing things for your opponent so you can argue against them. This by the way was a common problem in this thread, people completely unable to quote me on any things they claimed I was proposing (say, genocide) or being (included but not limited to being a fascist in disguise and literally demonic). And I bet the result here is the same. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:14 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 18:12
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DarkCrawler posted:Where do you believe that is the case I am making, and is it possible for you to quote me? Masses are not your problem, if the masses could decide Democrats would be coasting from election to election. United States is not a democracy. It's the end point of your agreement because total disenfranchisement is the only way to get to the isolation you truly crave, and for that to happen, you would need to curb democracy. And there's legit philosophical background to back up such an argument, even if it's disagreeable for me. But that's the true extant of your argument, and you claiming otherwise is either dishonesty with yourself or dishonesty with us, and in fairness to you, it's likely the former. But isolation on a strictly social axis historically doesn't work, so your continued invocation of it means you desire something more strenuous. It's difficult to tell though because younwon't identify with any tradition of thought, so it leads to the same circular argument every time because there is no statistical way to prove how to disenfrannchise fascism. Even Germany who bans the fascist party still has hate crimes. So at least let's invoke a philosopher instead of make an unclear call to action yet again, shall we?
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May 15, 2022 18:21
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DarkCrawler posted:Why do you believe that is the case I am making, and is it possible for you to quote me? Masses are not your problem, if the masses could decide Democrats would be coasting from election to election. United States is not a democracy. If I had to guess it would probably come down to the fact that you've never actually made a case for anything, only plopped down a set of demands only to get indignant when people ask you questions or say it's dumb and obviously won't do anything to stop fascism. If you want to be taken serious I'd listen to PM here and maybe actually make a pitch - even an elevator pitch! - about how it would work and examples of DarkCrawler Thought stemming the tide of advancing fascism. fake edit - PM said it far better than I, if you want your philosophy taken seriously you need to develop it as such.
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May 15, 2022 18:25
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Probably Magic posted:It's the end point of your agreement because total disenfranchisement is the only way to get to the isolation you truly crave, and for that to happen, you would need to curb democracy. And there's legit philosophical background to back up such an argument, even if it's disagreeable for me. But that's the true extant of your argument, and you claiming otherwise is either dishonesty with yourself or dishonesty with us, and in fairness to you, it's likely the former. But isolation on a strictly social axis historically doesn't work, so your continued invocation of it means you desire something more strenuous. It's difficult to tell though because younwon't identify with any tradition of thought, so it leads to the same circular argument every time because there is no statistical way to prove how to disenfrannchise fascism. Even Germany who bans the fascist party still has hate crimes. So at least let's invoke a philosopher instead of make an unclear call to action yet again, shall we? No, that's something you've completely invented out of your own ideas, because you are unable to argue against the actual points I am saying. If the masses could decide, there wouldn't be the same problem. I'm completely ok with democracy in this case. That alone invalidates your made up strawman. By the way, I currently live in that "total isolation" without any disenfranchiment. How do you square that with what you are saying? Let's at least stick with the actual arguments? I know it is hard when someone is further to the left than you are, but let's do that before quoting philosophers. Epic High Five posted:If I had to guess it would probably come down to the fact that you've never actually made a case for anything, only plopped down a set of demands only to get indignant when people ask you questions or say it's dumb and obviously won't do anything to stop fascism. If you want to be taken serious I'd listen to PM here and maybe actually make a pitch - even an elevator pitch! - about how it would work and examples of DarkCrawler Thought stemming the tide of advancing fascism. Nah, I actually posted multiple giant posts behind both concrete and philosophical reasons behind my arguments. Including where and how that has worked. You pretend I get indignant when people ask me questions but I was the only one in that thread and here capable of quoting and addressing actual arguments made by actual people. The reasons why my philosophy is rejected is not because of strength of arguments or the concrete effect it would and has had on societies (proven in the same thread) but emotional and personal. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:34 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 18:31
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This is incredibly bluntly 'if you condemn this shooter but don't support the Russian invasion of Ukraine you are a neo nazi supporter' which is a loving insane argument to make.
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May 15, 2022 18:32
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Hey folks, just got here but I have a hot take: the events in Buffalo are bad and so is white supremacist fascism
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May 15, 2022 18:42
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DarkCrawler posted:No, that's something you've completely invented out of your own ideas, because you are unable to argue against the actual points I am saying. If the masses could decide, there wouldn't be the same problem. I'm completely ok with democracy in this case. That alone invalidates your made up strawman. What argument? You've not made an argument, you've made demands and elaborated that they are based on your opinion and feeling. Nobody here cares that you did it once, somewhere else apparently, and to no other satisfaction but your own. You came in here to make the argument, so make it, I asked a few specific questions and so did PM, that'd be a good place to start. There are many good reasons to cut someone out of your life, but specifically if you want it to represent a pro/anti-fascist binary, when has someone ceasing communication with their Trump voting grandmother hindered the march of Fascism in the west?
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May 15, 2022 18:45
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Willa Rogers posted:Kind of stunned at almost one out of every four Democrats being stone-cold racists according to that poll. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was higher. A lot of Americans are freaking out, of all creeds, that most of Gen Z is “non-white”.
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May 15, 2022 18:46
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ImpAtom posted:This is incredibly bluntly 'if you condemn this shooter but don't support the Russian invasion of Ukraine you are a neo nazi supporter' which is a loving insane argument to make. that is not, in fact, the argument. it is a continuation of something the left has been saying since well before D+D had its whoopsie-donated-to-the-Bandera-Appreciation-Society moment. you are not required to support fascists in order to accomplish a short term political goal. it is a thing you can choose not to do. but instead, like in Afghanistan before, American foreign policy is indiscriminately arming far right paramilitaries to hold off the Russian menace and trusting that there will be acceptable long term consequences. someone wearing the same insignia and who believes the same things as those paramilitaries shot up a grocery store in Buffalo last week. and we proclaimed it a tragedy. do you believe arming more far right paramilitaries will lead to more instances of that tragedy, or less. and are you willing to accept those casualties as the cost of doing business.
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May 15, 2022 18:53
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ImpAtom posted:This is incredibly bluntly 'if you condemn this shooter but don't support the Russian invasion of Ukraine you are a neo nazi supporter' which is a loving insane argument to make. The argument is that you can’t say the “heroes of Azovstal” (Azov battalion) aren’t actually white supremacists when they proudly wear the sonnenrad while saying the shooter is a white supremacist in part for proudly displaying the sonnenrad. Liberals at large are trying to make some distinction between these two similar belief systems with identical symbols. Liberal mods in this forum have gone so far as to prohibit any discussion of Azov’s views, while very much not prohibiting celebration of their acts.
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May 15, 2022 18:56
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Sorry if I haven't done the assigned background reading to participate in this apparently long-running argument but is there an explanation for why someone who isn't American is apparently intimately familiar with American social dynamics to the point of developing a plan of prescriptive social action, because that alone sounds kind of absurd if they've never lived here before and have no first hand knowledge of what they're talking about
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May 15, 2022 19:04
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Best Friends posted:The argument is that you can’t say the “heroes of Azovstal” (Azov battalion) aren’t actually white supremacists nobody is saying azov battalion aren't white supremacists
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May 15, 2022 19:04
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