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Cease to Hope posted:reading "nobody [in this discussion] is saying X" as "nobody [anywhere in the world, at any time, regardless of whether it's otherwise related to the thread] is saying X" is tendentious nonsense if it helps, I found someone saying it's okay to support Azov in the thread! DeadlyMuffin posted:Pointing at the Asov battalion as a way to "both sides" is a bit like pointing at bad actors in the Soviet Union and arguing that Lend Lease was a bad idea and that we shouldn't have sent weapons and material. to this person, giving support to the Azov batallion is like giving support to the soviet union in lend-lease! maybe not ideal, but certainly okay to do, in the name of accomplishing American strategic goals  it is telling, here, that the justification offered for giving arms to fascists is "remember that one time we armed communists." this makes absolutely zero sense if you consider fascism an existential threat to be opposed, but makes perfect sense if you consider fascists inconveniently uncouth fellow fighters against the real enemy.
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May 15, 2022 23:20
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PeterCat posted:It amazes me how many ACAB leftists' view on Ukraine seems to be "stop resisting!" Yet another example would be Iraq. The liberal consensus at the time supported toppling Saddam, because he was a ruthless and horrible dictator (true), but also because because they bought into a convenient narrative that he had something to do with 9/11 and had WMDs (false). Leftists warned strongly against this at the time, but were roundly shouted down. The conflict, and those that spiraled out of it (like Syria) have killed over a million people. Many leftists (including me) now think that throwing more weapons into Ukraine (some of which will wind up in the hands of the Azov battalion) is not prudent. The unknowns are huge and highly dynamic, and as such the risk is high. Sometimes the immediately appealing option may not be the best one, and we should think carefully how similar situations in the past have panned out. This also wraps back into domestic policy, because this is being used by Biden as a justification to discontinue much COVID funding. cat botherer fucked around with this message at 23:25 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 23:21
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PeterCat posted:It amazes me how many ACAB leftists' view on Ukraine seems to be "stop resisting!" Can you quote any specific posts like this in the thread?
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May 15, 2022 23:29
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cat botherer posted:Once again, totally misconstruing what I and others said, and also demeaning the views of many people who are fighting for things like racial justice. Many bad things happen, and our "help" has a track record of making things worse. An recent example of us trying to help the good guys that went south was Libya. Another one was arming the Mujahadeen. Another example would be Syria. This is exactly the problem. You are painting it as "leftists feel (x), liberals feel (y)" when that is not the case, and it only serves to allow you to use phrases like "demeaning the views of many people who are fighting for things like racial justice." The current viewpoint on Ukraine among leftists is nowhere near as unified as you try to pretend and the convenient painting of anyone leftist who doesn't agree as 'liberal' is just a lovely rhetoric used to pain everyone who disagrees with you as an enemy opposing good things. Beyond that trying to paint Ukraine and Iraq as the same thing is downright insulting. It's an extremely different situation. And there are plenty of arguments to be made about domestic policy and how it's lovely we can come up with funding for wars in a second but can't fund health care, but that is largely because America is a loving hellscape and not because the money isn't there.
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May 15, 2022 23:37
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PeterCat posted:It amazes me how many ACAB leftists' view on Ukraine seems to be "stop resisting!" I'm not sure it's any less contradictory a view than vocally anti-gun liberals hooting and hollering about the moral righteousness of shipping much deadlier weapons overseas en masse and telling Ukrainians shoot their way to freedom whereas domestically even the hint of physical resistance to violence is labeled as futile and/or insane apocalypse fantasy. Nobody's worldview is entirely coherent Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:if it helps, I found someone saying it's okay to support Azov in the thread! Speaking of coherence, though, I honestly think shrugging off qualms about offering material support for Banderism as eggs being broken for omelets is a much more ideologically coherent position than the weird fig leaf that we can simply gun-run around any Nazis. I don't agree with it in the least, but it's at least more holistic analysis with a firmer grip on reality
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May 15, 2022 23:42
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The Sean posted:Can you quote any specific posts like this in the thread? Yeah, basically everything that Cat Botherer has posted.
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May 15, 2022 23:50
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PeterCat posted:It amazes me how many ACAB leftists' view on Ukraine seems to be "stop resisting!" Horseshoe theory is real, hth (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 15, 2022 23:52
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:I'm not sure it's any less contradictory a view than vocally anti-gun liberals hooting and hollering about the moral righteousness of shipping much deadlier weapons overseas en masse and telling Ukrainians shoot their way to freedom whereas domestically even the hint of physical resistance to violence is labeled as futile and/or insane apocalypse fantasy. Nobody's worldview is entirely coherent Unless I'm mistaken, the liberal view of gun control is that firearms are appropriate for the military to have to wage war with, but not for the average citizen to have private ownership of. Supplying the Ukrainian military is not the same thing as imagining some kind of popular uprising with your AR-15.
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May 15, 2022 23:52
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cat botherer posted:Yet another example would be Iraq. The liberal consensus at the time supported toppling Saddam, because he was a ruthless and horrible dictator (true), but also because because they bought into a convenient narrative that he had something to do with 9/11 and had WMDs (false). Leftists warned strongly against this at the time, but were roundly shouted down. The conflict, and those that spiraled out of it (like Syria) have killed over a million people. So, are you saying that Russian should withdraw from Ukraine and retreat to the pre-2014 borders? If not, why not?
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May 15, 2022 23:54
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PeterCat posted:Unless I'm mistaken, the liberal view of gun control is that firearms are appropriate for the military to have to wage war with, but not for the average citizen to have private ownership of. Supplying the Ukrainian military is not the same thing as imagining some kind of popular uprising with your AR-15. What difference does that make
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May 15, 2022 23:57
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Doctor Teeth posted:Horseshoe theory is real, hth Did you read that in the manifesto?
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May 16, 2022 00:00
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:What difference does that make It's the difference between an unorganized militia with small arms versus a professional military being supplied with APC, artillery pieces, anti-tank weapons, etc. Look at the difference in how the Russians are performing in Ukraine vs Syria, where they did very well against lightly armed insurgents, but got completely smoked when they attempted to attack a small US force.
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May 16, 2022 00:08
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PeterCat posted:It's the difference between an unorganized militia with small arms versus a professional military being supplied with APC, artillery pieces, anti-tank weapons, etc. I am asking for a moral and/or philosophical difference, not a difference in their tactical efficacy
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May 16, 2022 00:11
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PeterCat posted:Yeah, basically everything that Cat Botherer has posted. You said multiple people were saying this. You said that it "amazes [you] how many."
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May 16, 2022 00:11
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PeterCat posted:Unless I'm mistaken, the liberal view of gun control is that firearms are appropriate for the military to have to wage war with, but not for the average citizen to have private ownership of. Supplying the Ukrainian military is not the same thing as imagining some kind of popular uprising with your AR-15. You've mostly got the measure of it, the one blind spot being the police, which they do not view as a military force but do believe they should have access to whatever military hardware they "need"
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May 16, 2022 00:13
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The Sean posted:You said multiple people were saying this. You said that it "amazes you how many." You said "posts," of which Cat Botherer has made many. I wasn't qualifying my statement to only people that post in this thread though.
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May 16, 2022 00:14
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Can we agree that US intervention is Ukraine is cynical pandering, MIC worshiping, business as usual smoke and mirrors... while still supporting Ukraine as a country of people defending themselves? I personally agree with Ukrainians defending the poo poo out of their country against Russia's objectively wrong aggression. I don't need to trust our leaders or media to do that, and I fully recognize our lack of legitimacy on the world stage regarding this kind of aid without any coaxing from Russia. Can we all come forward and say like, poo poo's hosed, all the decision makers are hosed too, but nothing is conveniently black and white? It's tough and complicated and everything is set up to make us take sides. The Russian aggression in Ukraine is serious issue, but why should we be so glad to let it divide us?
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May 16, 2022 00:23
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punk rebel ecks posted:I am in no way, shape, or form saying that Americans did anything to truly aid Yemen. Just that for, a minute at least, it actually was a topic some people briefly cared about. Zayed bin Sultan Al Nahyan, one of the longest-ruling dictators of the modern age, who was also one of the butchers of Yemen, died just a few days ago. The official US response was flags at half-mast on embassies and weepy pieces about what a great ruler he was. There is an impulse on much of the left, born out of sheer desperation for alternatives, to see anything that goes against US-centric global dominance as positive and progressive. I've seen more than a few people I mostly like post about cleaning Mariupol of nazis in triumphant tones, or posting soviet flags when defending current Russia as a lone bastion against NATO hegemony. The fact that present-day Russia may well be the world's most conservative, religious and elite-dominated country after Saudi Arabia doesn't register for them. But sometimes just because you are paranoid, it does not mean they are not out to get you. even the break-up pf communist Russia was started with the understanding that there would be a new Marshal Plan to bring the whole hemisphere into a big peaceful common prosperity. even post-Nazi Germany got some cash, after all! It was worth it to avoid a global conflagration, right? Right? By the time it became clear that was a pipe dream, the ball was already rolling. Then followed one of the most severe peacetime mortalities in history, and the life expectancy for russian males dropped to 57, while western "do gooders" carved up everything of value, then applauded Yeltsin, an unstable, bloodthristy thug, when he shelled the parliament and then went on to slaughter Chechnya. NATO kept creeping East even though the enemy was no longer there. Just a big friendly group of pals, but no, of course you Ivans can't join, because, um, reasons. So yeah, it's alright to avoid an angry, biting dog. But the people who have been kicking it every week until it goes psycho don't get a pass. Especially when just last month they were gleefuly going "Oh, your island nation wants to host a chinese base? It'd be a shame if we had to boil your cities from the face of the Earth." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/26/us-wont-rule-out-military-action-if-china-establishes-base-in-solomon-islands Zelensky was elected with a never before seen margin because the whole game of cultural divide was already bleeding the country dry and keeping it poor and desperate. He reneged on that very early on, bringing the far-right elements that were not actively foaming at the mouth into government, felalting Bandera and such, and his approval rating were in the toilet before stupid Putin did him the favor of invading. At this point, 44% of the country's voters of the last election have had their parties outlawed. About half of those BEFORE the invasion. Until evidence to the contrary, I really do believe western support of Ukraine is just the Soviet-Afghan War part 2; boosting a neighboring rival of a power you don't like with endless guns, nix all talk of diplomacy or peace, and then leave when the game is up, with the very worst, hardened, most violent faction of that place left in charge. First it was salafi fundamentalists, now it'll be bona-fide nazis. Zelenski will be in hot water again six months after Russia gives up and he gets caught in a scandal after the economy remains lovely, or will just move to the UK to be feasted by NGOs until his dying day. They'll be left holding the tiller. "Oh there you go again, not all Ukrainians are Azov, they only got 4% in the vote, yadda yadda". Yeah, the hardcore wing tends to shrink when the main body of the movement learnes to wear a suit and say the quiet part quiet, then penetrates other parties. The US has its perception warped by having had a two-party system for so long, but trust me, here in Brazil the fash wave that lifted Bolsonaro in a tidal wave in under 2 years had even Labour parties like PDT accepting reactionary figures to surf the wave. After this, they1ll be flush with cash, weapons and prestige, andhave carte blanche to 'pacify' eastern Ukraine while the west grants them the same blind eye it afford to Turkey, Israel and KSA. At this point, there are no real good options. Maybe building a time machine and going back 15 years, when US-Russia relations were somewhat decent in the wake of the war on 'Terror', and hammering out an actual treaty with spheres of influence, demilitarized zones, and enough integration to make it stick.
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May 16, 2022 00:30
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PeterCat posted:You said "posts," of which Cat Botherer has made many. I wasn't qualifying my statement to only people that post in this thread though. You literally said "leftists" which is plural of a population, not one poster. Receipts: PeterCat posted:It amazes me how many ACAB leftists' view on Ukraine seems to be "stop resisting!" I was able to quote what I was referring to. You haven't done that. The Sean fucked around with this message at 00:46 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 00:43
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PeterCat posted:Unless I'm mistaken, the liberal view of gun control is that firearms are appropriate for the military to have to wage war with, but not for the average citizen to have private ownership of. Supplying the Ukrainian military is not the same thing as imagining some kind of popular uprising with your AR-15.
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May 16, 2022 00:45
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Can you support the statement that NATO's main ambition is debt slavery for the Eastern Bloc? That's a hell of an allegation. Discussion of this should probably be in another thread since it's not strictly USCE, though I don't really want to continue it in the D&D Ukraine thread, so I don't know. I will say that NATO has no other enduring reason to exist with the absence of the Soviet Union and its expansion after its collapse, and that such expansion has led to the crisis that "necessitates" its existence. This leads back to the idea of Russia for having no justification to invade, which ignores Ukraine's ambitions to join NATO which presents just as much of a security threat to Russia as Soviet missiles put in Cuba was to the United States. America had cause to invade Cuba, but would not to be right to do so, just as Russia has cause to invade Ukraine even though it's not right to do so. But justification and endorsement are not the same thing. Russia has justifications to invade Ukraine, and people portraying the events as strictly Ukrainian victims of Russian aggression seem to be ignoring Ukraine's aggression against the Donbas region. Does the Donbas have the right to defend itself? With Russian help? It'll be an argument lost in history as Russia has far over-exceeded anything close to a defensive operation in that region, and the denazification reasoning is also a complete eye roll, but no, there's a lot of nuance to the conflict, and in reality, there should probably be two Ukraines with no Russian annexation, but that's not something either side is going to agree to, which goes back to the fact that America is perpetuating the conflict in complete disregard of Ukraine's ability to sustain it to pursue proxy aggression against Russia. Probably Magic fucked around with this message at 01:00 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 00:46
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https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-fighter-neo-nazi-symbols-medal-kill-ukraine-nationalist-2022-4
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May 16, 2022 00:46
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Doctor Teeth posted:https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-fighter-neo-nazi-symbols-medal-kill-ukraine-nationalist-2022-4 edit: A broader point is that US foreign policy consensus and liberal opinion tends towards “good guy/bad guy” narratives, and we all want to help the good guys. It’s never that simple, and we would do well to remember that before Kramering in to another conflict. cat botherer fucked around with this message at 00:51 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 00:47
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Doctor Teeth posted:https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-fighter-neo-nazi-symbols-medal-kill-ukraine-nationalist-2022-4 Please refrain from posting just links without any context or commentary, thank you
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May 16, 2022 00:49
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I think you can recognize the US's blame for many things in the world without giving Russia's leadership a pass on their behavior. The constant comparisons to them as rabid dogs or whatever serves a very similar purpose to painting them as being acting in self-defense or having no other choice or they had to act before Ukraine hurt them or whatever. They are human beings. This war did not need to happen. If anything they had proven to be extremely effective with soft power. Even if you're arguing in favor of Russia having the right to expand their territory by claiming surrounding nations there are countless ways they could have moved forward in ways that were not this insane, absurd, violent mess. This 'special military action' is a sloppy half-planned half-researched attack and because of that many people on both the Russian and Ukranian sides are dying horrible violent deaths, not even counting the loving war crimes. This is not a rabid dog snapping out after being abused. It is a group of human beings who decided to engage in violent bloody conflict for, as near as we can tell, entirely egotistical purposes. Don't get me wrong, the US needs a whole fuckin' lot of blame, but the Russian leadership are the ones most to blame for this particular set of atrocities. There was no need for this war and every chance to pull back. (And arguably pulling back would have still been a coup for Russia because it would have made the US Military leadership once again look like fearmongers.) It was not the right choice ethically, morally, or tactically, and continues on because the other choice is to admit a loss and deal with the consequences of that. Instead the outcome of this war is basically the worst for everyone except maybe arms manufacturers. NATO is emboldened and strengthened, Ukraine is wrecked and ruined even if they 'win', the Russian military has been humiliated and a vast amount of its soft power and reputation is in the toilet, and the US is spending billions of dollars on weapons instead of anything else. (Note: the US would be doing this anyway so it's a minor loss but still.) You can make a whole lot of arguments about Russia and its use of power and how the US is to blame for some of its actions as a necessity of fighting against a stronger opponent, but not this. MAYBE if it was a genuinely well thought out plan with good equipment and prepared soldiers and was ended quickly. (Which would be good for Russia if nobody else) But this half-baked loving slaughter can't be justified by necessity or response. Edit: and the US is absolutely not immune to this, see most of our loving wars in the past century. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:53 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 00:51
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How come I want to beat on Darkcrawler, yet I feel some of you handed out team colors and didn't include me? I may get time to consider the scrimmage after this post, but wtf we can't even come together here where we spend our free time and energy with no tangible return?
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May 16, 2022 00:57
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BRJurgis posted:How come I want to beat on Darkcrawler, yet I feel some of you handed out team colors and didn't include me? Oooo, sorry BR but your VORP (Value Over Replacement Poster) is negative everywhere except right field and the poster who starts there's parents said they won't bring us all to Pizza Hut after the game if they get dropped down to 2nd string
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May 16, 2022 01:04
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The Sean posted:You literally said "leftists" which is plural of a population, not one poster. LoL. Yes, I said leftists, not leftists in this thread.
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May 16, 2022 01:52
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:What difference does that make One is to help a country against a foreign government that's actively invading it. The other is for some future "self protection" and/or "protecting minorities from nazis" (most likely depending what side of the political spectrum the person is on) like they're in an action movie. Kalit fucked around with this message at 02:41 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 02:20
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Sephyr posted:
Okay, so what is your response to the atrocities revealed when Russians withdrew from the Kiev front? Are you claiming those are a false flag, a necessary consequence of modern warfare, or somehow the fault of NATO/the US? Are the deaths of hundreds of civilians by indiscriminate bombing, shots to the back of the head, and mines in residences a valid tactic by Russia? Do you think the fact that nothing equivalent has been inflicted on Russian civilians (at least not by foreign actors) is not a reflection of who is actually right here? Yes, Saudi atrocities in Yemen should have garnered equal attention, and the US being consistently on the wrong side with I/P is also lovely. That doesn't mean that we have to always pick the wrong side to back. Even if we take your objections to Zelensky at face value, the logical extension is that any country that elects a bad leader deserves to be conquered by their neighbors - if that's the case, shouldn't Hungary be on the chopping block? Shouldn't Poland? What is the actual outcome you are arguing for here, and why should be allow Russia to make those sorts of claims when China has a much stronger case for it from an economic and diplomatic perspective? Do you just think we "owe them one" for the lovely outcome of the Soviet collapse and therefore have to turn a blind eye when their oligarchic crony-capitalist shithead starts doing a genocide? Edit: Honestly, it feels like people are so used to the situations where we are backing governments against insurgents or vice versa that they don't know how to recalibrate their talking points when there is a no-poo poo war of conquest happening. You REALLY can't make any sort of argument for giving Putin what he wants here, because what he wants is to conquer a country that has been sovereign for longer than I have been alive BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 02:33 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 02:30
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PeterCat posted:Yes, I said leftists, not leftists in this thread. So a totally non-disprovable, anecdotal shitpost meant to antagonize rather than foster any real discussion or exchange of ideas. Nice.
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May 16, 2022 02:30
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What is this argument even about at this point? Some people conflate Ukraine and nazis? Yes. Some people forget there are nazis in Ukraine? Yes. Are either of those in dispute?
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May 16, 2022 02:53
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Kalit posted:One is to help a country against a foreign government that's actively invading it. The other is for some future "self protection" and/or "protecting minorities from nazis" (most likely depending what side of the political spectrum the person is on) like they're in an action movie. What is the material difference between a foreign government committing violence against you and your own government
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May 16, 2022 02:58
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Mendrian posted:What is this argument even about at this point? The culture war is a pervasive powerful gravity that apparently is all encompassing in its capturing orbit. The only enemies are bad faith posters.
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May 16, 2022 03:00
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:What is the material difference between a foreign government committing violence against you and your own government How is government violence on citizens correlated to gun control? I don't see a mass movement of private gun owners actively/currently "defending themselves" against the US government. Kalit fucked around with this message at 03:04 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 03:02
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BRJurgis posted:The culture war is a pervasive powerful gravity that apparently is all encompassing in its capturing orbit. Bad faith posters aren't heroes they're just the regular kind of stupid as gently caress instead of a specific kind. Like someone saying you should stop whining about rubbing mud into your eyes because it's technically clay
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May 16, 2022 03:03
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BougieBitch posted:Edit: Honestly, it feels like people are so used to the situations where we are backing governments against insurgents or vice versa that they don't know how to recalibrate their talking points when there is a no-poo poo war of conquest happening. You REALLY can't make any sort of argument for giving Putin what he wants here, because what he wants is to conquer a country that has been sovereign for longer than I have been alive That says more about how young you are than how old Ukraine is, lol. But on a more serious point, perhaps if America always has poor motivation in every conflict it's touched since World War II, then why would this be the exception. Instead of accepting that on face value, maybe you should question. I knew I should have during the Libyan intervention under Obama, and I didn't, and I judge my past self a lot since.
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May 16, 2022 03:11
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Kalit posted:How is government violence on citizens correlated to gun control? I don't see a mass movement of private gun owners actively/currently "defending themselves" against the US government. So is the problem with guns in the US that there is no mass movement attached to them?
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May 16, 2022 03:17
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Ukraine question: what is it about this war, in particular, that's worked everybody up into such frothing war-crazy moral outrage? Blue and yellow flags everywhere, super weird Zelenskyy fetishism, fundraisers and relief orgs all over the place. I get the policy rationale--gently caress Russia, Cold War 2.0, etc--but the general cultural fervor is something I haven't seen since the run up to the invasion of Iraq. Where was all this poo poo during Libya, and Syria, and Yemen, and who the gently caress knows how many other wars? "They ain't brown" is the easy answer, but there's gotta be more to it than that. Whatever the facts on the ground over there, whatever opinions people have, there's something pathological about all this.
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May 16, 2022 03:22
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:if it helps, I found someone saying it's okay to support Azov in the thread! It's an argument for giving support to Ukraine, despite the Azov battalion being part of the Ukrainian military. I could've easily used Soviet support for Republican Spain, the point is the same. What action do you think best opposes fascism? 1. Supporting the nation being invaded by a super-nationalist, expansionist neighbor. 2. Do nothing because there is a small fraction of the military of the nation being invaded that is fascist? There can, in fact, be lesser evils. Which nation is behaving in a fascist manner here? Just out of curiosity, do you actually consider the Soviet Union communists? I've been assured that it was fake communism and real communism will be a rousing success.
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May 16, 2022 03:24
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