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They do explain how dancer works which is nice, but other than that yeah they just kind of throw you in the deep end.
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May 15, 2022 21:31
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If nothing else they should make the tutorials class-focused instead of role focused.
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May 15, 2022 21:32
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Martman posted:In most content there's not really any meaningful strategic options, it's just, do mechanics correctly and hit the enemies using your proper rotation etc. I'm presenting a situation where I thought the ninja was going the entirely wrong direction but was actually doing something right, how would that happen in normal PvE content? Or, in other words, in a pve fight why would I think someone is doing poorly when they're actually not? I guess to be more clear, if I see that someone did a bunch of damage at the end of a 24-man for instance, all I get from that is that I realize they know how to do their rotation etc., whereas the pvp score can help me to realize that big picture stuff like "just stay on the crystal" is wrong.
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May 15, 2022 21:32
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ImpAtom posted:If nothing else they should make the tutorials class-focused instead of role focused. they should not also train you to tank wrong, as a joke
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May 15, 2022 21:34
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cheetah7071 posted:they've talked about how they kind of like that idea but the problem is that rotations can change on a whim from patch to patch as part of balancing, and it's a lot of extra work to maintain it through that Yeah, that's the big hurdle. Even a quest once an expansion and making it super modular would still be a lot of escalating work with every new job added. I do think they should put more emphasis on ALWAYS BE CASTING somewhere, since I'm pretty sure that would improve overall DPS for all causal players. stev posted:Yeah this would help. It's not so bad when you're levelling and learn skills one by one - but jumping into a class that starts at 30/50/60/70 with a full rotation to learn in one go can definitely be overwhelming. Some job quests do that a little, every new job since ShB has its first quest giving you a roundown of the kit. But your second point has the same problem that they may change a kit for reasons so they can't always have you use X skill. It's already a problem when they have to retcon quests because the skills you used to have have been lost to time (like AST). ImpAtom posted:If nothing else they should make the tutorials class-focused instead of role focused. The big thing is people new to MMO need to understand the roles first. And the Hall of the Novice is already iffy enough (whith things such as a tank that refuses to grab aggro if you aren't constantly healing and dissuading you from using AOE).
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May 15, 2022 21:35
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ImpAtom posted:I feel like if someone can get to Savage tier 4 you can at bare minimum assuming they can do enough DPS and the problem is likely more dying to loving mechanics instead of being an ice mage and no amount of DPS tracker is going to fix that. ZenMasterBullshit posted:If hitting enrages in high end content is such consistently an issue for you this late into a raid tier when you've had time to gear up...like 4 classes on tomes alone outside of upgrade mats I'm not sure the occasional unskilled pick up player in PF is your issue. yall realize that thanks to the magic of  illegal third party tools we can actually *gasp* see what everyone is doing over the entire fight?but no i guess actually i'm the problem and not the red mage who presses acceleration once over ten minutes
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May 15, 2022 21:36
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Honestly I'm just not sure how people can say this games moderation is so amazing and then turn around and say that this would ruin the game and turn everyone into an evil wow player who kicks small children from leveling roulette or whatever. knowledge is power and power corrupts therefor knowledge corrupts
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May 15, 2022 21:38
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Oneiros posted:yall realize that thanks to the magic of If you are not clearing content because the RDM isn't pressing acceleration then it isn't just the RDM who is the issue. This is basically a great example of why this stuff is lovely. No DPS check is tight enough that will cause a wipe unless a bunch of other stuff is going wrong too, but it's easier to blame the RDM who didn't press acceleration than to acknowledge everyone needs to shape up.
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May 15, 2022 21:38
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Ibram Gaunt posted:But this won't happen. This is entirely made up in your head. It happens in WoW because WoW has cultivated over 15 years of a culture with next to zero moderation. XIV actively punishes people who are reported for even minor things as long as they break the rules. Being harassed and bullied for your rotation would not be common because it would be bannable. as it already is now They (being SE) don't want to deal with all the added reporting. Let's say some dudes run a dungeon and at the end of it, one player says to another hey your damage was low, try doing x y and z and dips. That other player might feel bad and report the other player just trying to be helpful and even though this interaction was pretty mundane, a GM still has to look at it, which takes time out of their day handling other poo poo, which means SE has to hire more support which touches their bottom line. Also all the dunning kreugers out there who don't want to find out they're garbage. Essentially, the current status quo is all upside for SE while adding meters is only upside for the console players who wish they add access to a damage meter.
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May 15, 2022 21:39
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ImpAtom posted:I feel like if someone can get to Savage tier 4 you can at bare minimum assuming they can do enough DPS and the problem is likely more dying to loving mechanics instead of being an ice mage and no amount of DPS tracker is going to fix that. earlier in the tier i ran into a surprisingly large amount of parties that couldn't make it past the p4s door boss enrage even with zero deaths. this doesn't really happen anymore since people have appreciably better gear at this point, but there was definitely a period where being bad at dps meant you were preventing the group from making progress
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May 15, 2022 21:39
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Oneiros posted:yall realize that thanks to the magic of you don't NEED third party tools to figure out who is doing the least amount of dps. Stone Sea Sky is a thing that exists in game for this purpose. it would take extra work, yes, and maybe some guessing and working with the person(s) to help fix their rotation or their opener, but it can all be done without damage meters.
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May 15, 2022 21:43
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ImpAtom posted:If you are not clearing content because the RDM isn't pressing acceleration then it isn't just the RDM who is the issue. This is basically a great example of why this stuff is lovely. No DPS check is tight enough that will cause a wipe unless a bunch of other stuff is going wrong too, but it's easier to blame the RDM who didn't press acceleration than to acknowledge everyone needs to shape up. what if they also aren't pressing a) manafication b) fleche c) contra sixte d) their gap closer or e) their raid buff <e> or any buttons at all for a significant period in case it isn't clear this is not in fact a hypothetical Oneiros fucked around with this message at 21:49 on May 15, 2022 |
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May 15, 2022 21:43
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Stone sky sea is a terrible measure, and it's not even the same amount of damage needed per job.
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May 15, 2022 21:44
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all I really want personally is an opt-in un-publicized damage meter and for the hall of the novice to train you on how you actually play the game instead of teaching you that going fast is the devil no good can come of public damage meters
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May 15, 2022 21:44
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Stone Sky Sea is so weird because you have to go into it cold, so it's basically an opener simulator.
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May 15, 2022 21:45
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Kerrzhe posted:you don't NEED third party tools to figure out who is doing the least amount of dps. Stone Sea Sky is a thing that exists in game for this purpose. it would take extra work, yes, and maybe some guessing and working with the person(s) to help fix their rotation or their opener, but it can all be done without damage meters. Oneiros posted:it's tyool 2022 and the official policy towards figuring out whether someone can actually put out the dps to beat a check is for the entire party to world travel and watch each other hit a training dummy with a stopwatch
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May 15, 2022 21:45
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i don't know what to tell you guys. they're not adding damage meters. but you can use them if you want just don't talk about it in game. i dont see what the problem is or what everyone is arguing about edit: wait i figured out what to tell you guys just don't be an rear end in a top hat
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May 15, 2022 21:47
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if parsing was legal people wouldn't have to set ludicrously high min ilvl requirements to make sure people can pass enrage checks
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May 15, 2022 21:54
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a cartoon duck posted:if parsing was legal people wouldn't have to set ludicrously high min ilvl requirements to make sure people can pass enrage checks Like that would stop them.
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May 15, 2022 21:58
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SettingSun posted:Stone Sky Sea is so weird because you have to go into it cold, so it's basically an opener simulator. There is also weirdness in that it's a strict 3 minute timer, so optimally you do things like hold 90 second cooldowns (for the few jobs that still have those) for the 2 minute mark that you wouldn't do in a normal fight. It used to be even weirder in earlier expansions where you had more desyncs with cooldowns. It's also completely worthless for judging healer DPS, which is far more important than people give it credit for. And of course, there are plenty of people who can perform their rotation adequately on a dummy but make far more mistakes when they have to concentrate on mechanics at the same time.
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May 15, 2022 22:03
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stone sky sea is useless why is this a conversation lmao just grey parse and do mechanics it is easy
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May 15, 2022 22:06
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a cartoon duck posted:if parsing was legal people wouldn't have to set ludicrously high min ilvl requirements to make sure people can pass enrage checks
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May 15, 2022 22:07
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Oneiros posted:what if they also aren't pressing a) manafication b) fleche c) contra sixte d) their gap closer or e) their raid buff Then yelling at them because of their in-game DPS meter is not actually going to change anything.
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May 15, 2022 22:09
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When you think about it. DPS checks either aren't real, or encourage damage meters. If they're so easy to do that you should be able to carry at least one person through them, then they're not a thing anyone needs to worry about. If they are a thing anyone needs to worry about, then we should have a way to track dps
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May 15, 2022 22:14
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Gobbeldygook posted:This week I joined an Ultima Unreal party that required ilevel 590 which is very funny because Ultima Unreal syncs to ilevel 565. It doesn't matter if you're wearing full 600 or your level 89 AF set! ostensibly it's to filter out people who don't know how to play their job, or the game it never works
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May 15, 2022 22:17
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weird how it's always portrayed as yelling and not simply being able to bring up "hey we're having problems getting past this bit and the lowest hanging fruit is you pressing your glowing buttons" and the response can be varied! "oh i didn't realize that was such a big part of my damage output i'll try to hit those more often" "i'm still overwhelmed dealing with the mechanics and can't focus on my hotbars as well as i'd like but i'll try" "gently caress you you don't pay my sub!"
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May 15, 2022 22:18
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A Moose posted:When you think about it. DPS checks either aren't real, or encourage damage meters. If they're so easy to do that you should be able to carry at least one person through them, then they're not a thing anyone needs to worry about. If they are a thing anyone needs to worry about, then we should have a way to track dps DPS checks aren't real but bad players are.
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May 15, 2022 22:25
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From what I've heard about P3S, a lot of PF groups drop DPS entirely during tethers for birds to focus on the mechanic which is a lot of downtime.
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May 15, 2022 22:32
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Eh, there is a bit of leeway on the adds DPS check on P3S because ideally you don't want to do any burst to kill the bird, and that top WAR dps of 4768 dps includes burst. Although that's still a "bad players" thing because if you haven't even seen enrage yet and are still progging the adds phase, just use your burst if you really can't get through it in any other way (although most of the reason why PFs couldn't get through adds is because they stand still instead of hitting the birds before tethers resolve, when you ideally should be hitting them before you get tethers and while the tether are present but not resolved yet).
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May 15, 2022 22:37
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Gobbeldygook posted:The ability of healers to parse well depends heavily on not having to spend GCDs healing and rezzing people who stand in the fire. A red mage who is chain rezzing idiots is going to parse badly. There are a lot of fights where random people get gaoled and lose an unknowable amount of uptime to their friends breaking them free or have to deal with some mechanic instead of DPSing (e.g. frogs on Amon in CT, the gorilla in A5). If you're running a standard strat on p2s then melee might get 100% or hosed on boss uptime during Kampeos Harma depending on RNG, or the tank/dps who is forced to run move away from the party during the second Predatory Avarice.
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May 15, 2022 22:51
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Martman posted:But how would the "scoreboard at the end" approach help with understanding any of this? quote:In most content there's not really any meaningful strategic options, it's just, do mechanics correctly and hit the enemies using your proper rotation etc. I'm presenting a situation where I thought the ninja was going the entirely wrong direction but was actually doing something right, how would that happen in normal PvE content? Or, in other words, in a pve fight why would I think someone is doing poorly when they're actually not?
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May 15, 2022 23:05
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it would be kinda cool to see a scoreboard at the end of trials/raids with like, damage done, damage taken, damage healed, number of deaths/raises, number of vuln stacks, uptime etc per person
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May 15, 2022 23:06
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Oneiros posted:"gently caress you you don't pay my sub!" I'm an ice mage. Adjust. I'm shocked but I'm actually really enjoying Machinist (so far, still not quite 50). I've bounced off every other ranged class I've tried in mmos.
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May 15, 2022 23:19
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Gobbeldygook posted:I was replying mostly to this part.
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May 15, 2022 23:30
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sassassin posted:I'm an ice mage. Adjust. If you think it's good now, just wait until you start getting the FF6 skills.
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May 15, 2022 23:30
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Gobbeldygook posted:I was replying mostly to this part. Yep, as a healer I have some really low grey parses in content, and then you flip over to healing done and there’s 5+ resses because the party was dragged kicking and screaming through eating one-shots non-stop (I didn’t even know this unreal HAD an enrage until I saw it in a 7+ death fight). But a lot of people only care about damage. Healers are pretty much 100% dependent on their party for parsing well because once you’re in the ressing weeds RIP. But you can’t judge on heal numbers either, because some healers are over healing majorly. You’d need like damage done, healing done, overheal percentage, etc. charted just to make it remotely fair and that wouldn’t account for the tank trying the quadruple gulg pull without using cooldowns.
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May 16, 2022 00:43
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A Moose posted:it would be kinda cool to see a scoreboard at the end of trials/raids with like, damage done, damage taken, damage healed, number of deaths/raises, number of vuln stacks, uptime etc per person god no one of the biggest things about world of warcraft for me was that I was terrified of doing multi-player content at all, because I'm bad at video games and easily depressed, and I'd heard that people were really uptight about being hardcore so when I finally got it together enough to try a few dungeons, I very quickly found myself (when not actually getting kicked for not being up to the regulars' standards) getting to the ends of dungeons and someone's parser would dump the damage totals into party chat just so they could feel like a big man and so even the positive emotion of success of getting into multiplayer content and finishing a dungeon, which I'd spent absolute ages avoiding, was immediately taken away from me. not only was I being told this was not a place for me, I'd still also just occasionally get kicked for no clear reason. and it's not as if I wasn't pushing my buttons. goddamn, did I have a lot of buttons to push, and I was paying rapt attention to my hotbars so when people told me that ff14 was a place where people were nice about multiplayer content, it still took me weeks upon weeks to build up the nerve to start doing roulettes (I was, I think, up to MSQ level 32 on the old 35-max free trial before I started rouletting) and I still get loving yelled at on a regular basis when tanking or healing because I don't know how to do these things effectively enough for some people I'm not here to do savage or extreme or anything like that, I only do normal-level content (apart from the occasional unsynched extreme trial for catbook.) I'm not getting in anyone's way where they're the sort of person who can use a tool to learn where numbers are slipping in a tight fight, but making everyone's numbers publicly available in any situation does not do anything helpful for anyone except people who want an excuse to poo poo on other players. I don't care that "oh, the GMs are good, they'll ban the people involved." this isn't something the GMs should have to concern themselves with. yes, I'm bad at video games. I don't think I can move my fingers any faster than I already do, so I'm probably going to stay bad at video games. If this game could be made entirely single-player, I would sign up for it in a loving heartbeat.
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May 16, 2022 00:57
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coolusername posted:Yep, as a healer I have some really low grey parses in content, and then you flip over to healing done and there’s 5+ resses because the party was dragged kicking and screaming through eating one-shots non-stop (I didn’t even know this unreal HAD an enrage until I saw it in a 7+ death fight). But a lot of people only care about damage. Healers are pretty much 100% dependent on their party for parsing well because once you’re in the ressing weeds RIP. But you can’t judge on heal numbers either, because some healers are over healing majorly. You’d need like damage done, healing done, overheal percentage, etc. charted just to make it remotely fair and that wouldn’t account for the tank trying the quadruple gulg pull without using cooldowns. Even then properly avoiding overhealing is a lot more difficult with pub groups or whatever because both healers probably understandably have no idea if they can trust the other to do their job and it's better to get overhealing versus playing healer chicken and causing a death/wipe (I consider a death of any kind that could have been avoided way worse than any amount of overhealing). Same for dungeons because yeah, tanks not using cooldowns or whatever can gently caress poo poo up. (Alternately the amount of damage you can output with a warrior self-healing vs a dark knight is also a factor because no poo poo you're going to do more damage when the warrior has bene on a 25 second cooldown)
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May 16, 2022 01:00
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hexwren posted:
don't the trust reworks mean this game is on the way to being 99.9% single player https://www.fanbyte.com/news/ffxiv-trust-system-realm-reborn-heavensward-stormblood-msq/ e: they noted 8 man duties and above can't get that treatment so 
Erg fucked around with this message at 01:04 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 01:01
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Erg posted:don't the trust reworks mean this game is on the way to being 99.9% single player In about 2 years yeah
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May 16, 2022 01:03
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