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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Tbh I think the problem with how vague the posting about posters rule is it's unclear if you can say "It's TenementFunster" or "Just take a look at their rap sheet and move on" even when it's a case like this and it's pretty obvious trolling. TF's original comment about portrayal of Azov and Azovstal in Western media is certainly something worth discussing if folks want. Posting about posters is a bit subjective but your best bet is to just ignore and report, as a couple people did.
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May 17, 2022 05:09
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Fritz the Horse posted:Posting about posters is a bit subjective but your best bet is to just ignore and report, as a couple people did. 
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May 17, 2022 05:14
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HolHorsejob posted:On the Kharkiv front, is the Russian retreat much of a victory? Being the second-largest city, it sounds like it's a perpetually juicy target, and Ukraine will have to tie down a ton of manpower to keep Russia from moving on it later on. Sure, but that manpower was already tied up keeping Russian forces from pushing harder in/around Kharkiv. Rolling back Russian gains means Ukraine's lines of communication and supply become that much more secure, and if push comes to shove Ukraine doesn't have to hold every inch of that territory; the more of a buffer Kharkiv has, the more time and attrition it will cost Russia to threaten Kharkiv again.
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May 17, 2022 05:16
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HolHorsejob posted:I, too, square off when someone steps into the thread absolutely spoiling for a fight. There is a block button.... I would say getting pushed out of the biggest and now second biggest city are pretty big defeats. While Ukraine won't be able to move all their troops to the next spot, Russian new attacks will have to be spun up its not some instant thing and it will require more of their rapidly dwindling available manpower. This of course doesn't cover that ukraine can now attack on multiple fronts
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May 17, 2022 05:19
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Forces in Kharkiv, unlike in Lviv or Kyiv, can serve a duel purpose of putting pressure on Belgorod. Already multiple attacks have happened there when the front-lines were much further from the city. So the russian army will have to leave enough competent forces stuck in Russia that are desperately needed in Ukraine to block any potential embarrassing attacks across into Russia itself. Yeah it kind of ties up both armies but the Ukranians are performing better and getting better reinforcements so over time it's going to be a better deal for Ukraine
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May 17, 2022 05:19
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Fritz the Horse posted:TF's original comment about portrayal of Azov and Azovstal in Western media is certainly something worth discussing if folks want. The thing is, I agree with him there. I don't think we should be lionizing, or even turning a blind eye to far right militias in the Ukrainian military. They should be removed from the military as soon as possible and you don't, in fact, have to hand it to them. That said, I've noticed that people who constantly bring up Azov are the same ones who claim to believe that the vast majority of Ukrainians are goose stepping nazis. There's a lot of people that don't read these threads regularly and I think they should know who's posting in good faith and who isn't. But you're the mod, so I'll stop.
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May 17, 2022 05:19
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this is fake news, that is not our horse fritz. fritz has a star. I am concerned that some no-good horse has clearly been misleading you as an excuse to get close to u
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May 17, 2022 05:20
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There is nothing better for the inside of a thread than the outside of a horse.
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May 17, 2022 05:20
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BigRoman posted:The thing is, I agree with him there. I don't think we should be lionizing, or even turning a blind eye to far right militias in the Ukrainian military. They should be removed from the military as soon as possible and you don't, in fact, have to hand it to them. I don't think anyone here actually approves of Azov. It's definitely regrettable that Russia's invasion is creating so much of mythology around Azov but in terms of negative impacts of Russia's war, turning Azov into martyrs ranks pretty low down on the list below, y'know, all the genocide. I suppose at least it's theoretically a plus that the mythology is now one step further removed from Actual Literal Nazis?
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May 17, 2022 05:26
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BigRoman posted:The thing is, I agree with him there. I don't think we should be lionizing, or even turning a blind eye to far right militias in the Ukrainian military. They should be removed from the military as soon as possible and you don't, in fact, have to hand it to them. Nah I'm not shutting down discussion of the Azovstal release/capture or whatever you want to call it, and absolutely 110% people should not be lionizing Azov. That's why I mentioned that discussion of Western coverage of Azov and Azovstal is something worth talking about if the thread wants, because there is lionizing of them and their stand in Mariupol. Per the OP, what is discouraged is going "did you know Azov are Nazis and there are Nazis in Ukraine??" which is rehashing stuff we've been over a bunch in this thread. Everyone knows Azov was founded by and has a bunch of neo-Nazis, and there are historical and modern far-right Ukrainian nationalist elements. Their existence is not news. If there is relevant news like Azov getting captured / evacuated from Azovstal then by all means discuss it.
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May 17, 2022 05:26
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the holy poopacy posted:I don't think anyone here actually approves of Azov. It's definitely regrettable that Russia's invasion is creating so much of mythology around Azov but in terms of negative impacts of Russia's war, turning Azov into martyrs ranks pretty low down on the list below, y'know, all the genocide. My fear is that Azov are turned into hero's and lead to ugly ultra-nationalism down the road. Wars create scars. I hope the Ukrainians don't forget that it was majority ethnically Russian cities that bore the brunt of the invasion and fought back bravely. There needs to be a reconciliation when this is over. BigRoman fucked around with this message at 05:32 on May 17, 2022 |
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May 17, 2022 05:29
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Are people really having like majority experiences with activist progressive types that are in large part being Rushist apologists? I know plenty of people that feel real weird about the US involvement and are pissed that we're losing basic liberties/social welfare in the face of 33bil for Ukraine while gearing up for frightening peak fascism in our own country inside like 20 years but I don't personally know anyone who has anything but pro-Ukrainian opinions in the general view. Loud threads on twitter not reality blah blah blah and I do bump into folks here and there that knee-jerk assume anything US or NATO is bad but I really don't consider it a majority viewpoint among the quote-unquote "left" Maybe its just the local sentiment from a certain type of feral PNW lefty that I'm used to interacting with but I am not accustomed to seeing the "Russia did nothing wrong this is NATO expansions fault" pretty much... anywhere. poo poo the only act of any effort whatsoever I have seen of pro-Putin sentiment was boomers spray painting Zs all over a local college months ago. Like I get these people exist but in flesh and blood ecosystems I'm not seeing this specific type of "actually its NATO and Ukraine's fault" attitude in person ever in numbers larger than one, and usually they're easy to convince if you know what you're talking about on this subject.
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May 17, 2022 05:30
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weirdly no one i know talks about it. This is what it must feel like to be turbo online. I mean I already knew but like the people who would go after you for laughing at Notorious RBG dying aren't talking about this either
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May 17, 2022 05:34
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BigRoman posted:My fear is that Azov are turned into hero's and lead to ugly ultra-nationalism down the road. Wars create scars. I hope the Ukrainians don't forget that it was majority Russian cities that bore the brunt of the invasion and fought back bravely. There needs to be a reconciliation down the road. I would suggest that the genocidal acts of Russia is more than enough to fuel ultra-nationists for decades to come, rather than a minority of goose stepping assholes being part of a larger force defending Mariupol
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May 17, 2022 05:37
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Willo567 posted:https://twitter.com/Nick_L_Miller/status/1526365497486352385 Probably the same people who decided to invade Ukraine because of Nazis and in order to prevent an attack by NATO. Michael Kofman mentioned on the latest podcast of War on the Rocks that while a nuclear strike still is very unlikely, an above surface test by the Russians would be the next step by them to tell everyone they are getting serious about possibly using one.
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May 17, 2022 05:37
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BigRoman posted:My fear is that Azov are turned into hero's and lead to ugly ultra-nationalism down the road. Wars create scars. I hope the Ukrainians don't forget that it was majority ethnically Russian cities that bore the brunt of the invasion and fought back bravely. There needs to be a reconciliation when this is over. Thing about Azov is that they're likely full of ethnic Russians themselves or at least people who prefer to speak Russian [1]. There is also less division in the country than a lot of people think; people's opinions are more of a continuum than a straightforward split dumb color coded maps use (and Putin managed to position himself as hated by 98% of the spectrum or so) and super-obnoxious weirdos like Irina Farion have always been niche. What will be tricky is finding the right balance between rejecting Russian cultural colonialism and protecting domestic Russian-speaking culture. (Something that's historically has been attempted in poorly considered and heavy-handed ways). There may also something of an opportunity for throwing the ghost of Bandera into trash --- opposing NKVD may be respectable, but terrorism against Poland, when Polish people are such friends and took care of,so many Ukrainian refugees? [1] Talking about "Russian-speakers" is misleading since at this point most people in Ukraine would be bilingual. Edit: what probably will turn ugly is questions of collaboration. Edit #2: I think I forgot to say what I wanted to say.... I do absolutely agree they will be risks and cleavages, but they will likely take a different form than based on ethnic and language lines. In some sense, your concerns match the Russian misunderstanding of Ukraine --- likely because they were parroted in the West by Moscow-based journalists or someone who saw 2014 section results map once or something. OddObserver fucked around with this message at 05:55 on May 17, 2022 |
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May 17, 2022 05:49
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BigRoman posted:My fear is that Azov are turned into hero's and lead to ugly ultra-nationalism down the road. Wars create scars. I hope the Ukrainians don't forget that it was majority ethnically Russian cities that bore the brunt of the invasion and fought back bravely. There needs to be a reconciliation when this is over. Nothing makes martyrs out of bad actors like... making martyrs out of them. DeliciousPatriotism posted:Are people really having like majority experiences with activist progressive types that are in large part being Rushist apologists? I know plenty of people that feel real weird about the US involvement and are pissed that we're losing basic liberties/social welfare in the face of 33bil for Ukraine while gearing up for frightening peak fascism in our own country inside like 20 years but I don't personally know anyone who has anything but pro-Ukrainian opinions in the general view. Loud threads on twitter not reality blah blah blah and I do bump into folks here and there that knee-jerk assume anything US or NATO is bad but I really don't consider it a majority viewpoint among the quote-unquote "left" The bad takes I've heard from the more left-leaning people in my life amount mostly to "NATO is just another vehicle for US imperialism and no, I'm not going to educate myself on any of the particulars of what's going on in Ukraine." Which, oddly enough, lands in the same ballpark as lovely takes from the right-wingers I know ("The US just uses NATO to play games and waste our money abroad and we shouldn't be footing the bill for anyone else's security or something. And no, all this wealth we have was made from our own bootstraps fair and square.")
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May 17, 2022 05:49
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:I would suggest that the genocidal acts of Russia is more than enough to fuel ultra-nationists for decades to come, rather than a minority of goose stepping assholes being part of a larger force defending Mariupol I agree, but ignoring them doesn't help Ukrainian stability in the long run.
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May 17, 2022 05:54
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BigRoman posted:I agree, but ignoring them doesn't help Ukrainian stability in the long run. I mean, if you're worried about them becoming martyrs it probably does. Estimates were less than 20% of Azov were Nazi affiliated, and Azov Battalion was far from the only unit defending Mariupol. Making a point to preface every statement about the defenders with disclaimers about how they're evil Nazis seems like it would be giving Nazis more credit for the defense than they deserve, not less.
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May 17, 2022 06:01
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DeliciousPatriotism posted:Are people really having like majority experiences with activist progressive types that are in large part being Rushist apologists? I know plenty of people that feel real weird about the US involvement and are pissed that we're losing basic liberties/social welfare in the face of 33bil for Ukraine while gearing up for frightening peak fascism in our own country inside like 20 years but I don't personally know anyone who has anything but pro-Ukrainian opinions in the general view. Loud threads on twitter not reality blah blah blah and I do bump into folks here and there that knee-jerk assume anything US or NATO is bad but I really don't consider it a majority viewpoint among the quote-unquote "left"
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May 17, 2022 06:04
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BigRoman posted:I hope the Ukrainians don't forget that it was majority ethnically Russian cities that bore the brunt of the invasion and fought back bravely. There needs to be a reconciliation when this is over. Good news, the population of these cities won't consider themselves "ethnically russian" after what has happened
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May 17, 2022 06:45
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nm
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May 17, 2022 07:13
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I think of Azov like I think of the proud boys, 3 percenters, oath keepers or the myriad other far right wackjob groups here in the US. Like they are all white nationalist scum, and plenty of them are in the military but they are no means the majority and definitely don't represent the majority of America. But if some foreign country invaded the US, and some brigade of proud boys was fighting them off in some city well as much as it pains me to say it id be rooting for the proud boys. Of course if that invading country was Russia well then obviously all those groups would be openly collaborating with them.
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May 17, 2022 07:40
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Posted hours ago....KitConstantine posted:Really good article in the New Yorker, ostesibly about the occupation of Melitopol but it touches on the whole southern occupied portion of Ukraine. Based on interviews with people who escaped Melitopol and the mayor who was kidnapped then released. Zalupa - "Dickhead"
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May 17, 2022 08:10
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I didn’t realise that rocket powered GPS guided artillery shells were a thing. Sounds suspiciously wh40k-ish. How does the, uh, impact/yield/bang of an excalibur shell compare with those switchblade drones? Are they 112k too? I’m just picturing an MLRS type drone swarm launcher as the horrifying evolution of warfare - which will see humans losing against skynet.
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May 17, 2022 08:10
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Rapulum_Dei posted:I didn’t realise that rocket powered GPS guided artillery shells were a thing. Sounds suspiciously wh40k-ish. A switchblade is a grenade. An Excalibur shell is a 155mm artillery round.
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May 17, 2022 08:13
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Cable Guy posted:Posted hours ago.... Does Taco Bell still have a presence in Russia? Boy do I have an idea for them: the Zalupa chalupa
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May 17, 2022 08:40
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIZIspwem2s Not sure if this has been posted before, but is quite interesting and should be watched. Basically some home videos by some young Russian military officer (?) prior to the invasion. A lot of drinking, and that theme seems to continue throughout the video. Towards the end he eventually gets involved in some combat and does not seem so thrilled about it. The part were he is sitting in the BMP (?) and they are just standing still there getting shot at and their main gun malfunctioning is a bit perplexing. Later it is him apparently cut off and hiding in some shed. They do not show his eventually capture. Would definitely be interested in reading more about his story if anyone has come across it.
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May 17, 2022 08:43
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Dick Ripple posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIZIspwem2s There was a followup interview with him, although much less interesting, a generic POW talk. The chechen grandpa part turns this video into a contender for some kind of documentary award, what a find by Ukrainians indeed.
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May 17, 2022 08:55
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dr_rat posted:So propaganda channels do, do that, but usually they try and get someone who can't articulate or argue that point of view very well so it's easier for the hosts or another "expert" to tear the argument down. This guy actually seemed fairly knowledgeable, and I don't know what was said after the interview so possibly the hosts did just spend the next hour just tearing his points down one by one when he wasn't there, but during it the one host that was talking to him seemed unable to put up any real argument at all against what he was saying. Absolutely. This guy was bringing forth very specific irrefutable arguments as everyone in the studio looked on in dumbstruck horror. Contrast that with the host who was reduced to spouting slogans by way of response (Someone translated the full segment here) https://twitter.com/BBCSteveR/status/1526329765065539592?s=20&t=E8X4UYYwlX15yd4U8tF8ww
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May 17, 2022 09:09
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fatherboxx posted:There was a followup interview with him, although much less interesting, a generic POW talk. Yeah this was p striking at times and it's funny that the vid has two instances of his subjects asking him why the gently caress he's filming. Dude has a bit of a knack for filming / interviewing.
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May 17, 2022 09:14
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:I would suggest that the genocidal acts of Russia is more than enough to fuel ultra-nationists for decades to come, rather than a minority of goose stepping assholes being part of a larger force defending Mariupol The Azov Battalion after all came into being as a direct result of the 2014 invasion. In any case the reason far right groups are bad is because they do far right things - not because of their use of iconography and symbolism. It would be more useful to point out the bad things the Azov Battalion is doing rather than just endlessly repeating they are nazi and then hope the reader imagines some warcrimes. The complete disinterest in some circles in actual verified slaughter, rape and torture by Russian forces combined with this obsession with Azov ideology is bizarre and the disinterest in Russian forces using similar iconography along with outright neonazi Rusich paramilitaries deploying alongside Russian forces suggests it's not a genuine concern.
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May 17, 2022 09:15
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No in fact I will hand it to the Azov's for doing what they did. Like I don't believe that half of people who get called Nazis would actually go and fight for their country, let alone hold out to the last man. Most of the guys who talk poo poo about other nations would most likely dip once the bombs start dropping. So at least good on them on keeping the "nation" part of "nationalist" and actually fighting for their country. I also think that this is a matter of perspective difference between US and Europe but this is a whole other  And with regard of their portrayal on the surrender/loss/capture - propaganda works both ways, we've had this discussion before. The western world is generally on Ukraine's side, so we get the "even in defeat, they win" angle. Everyone loves a good underdog story. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 17, 2022 09:19
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Willo567 posted:https://twitter.com/Nick_L_Miller/status/1526365497486352385 I for one hope and expect that if nukes start flying around, the involved parties will reconsider their approach.
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May 17, 2022 09:21
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Doctor Malaver posted:I for one hope and expect that if nukes start flying around, the involved parties will reconsider their approach. Historically, this is exactly what happened though.
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May 17, 2022 09:23
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Dick Ripple posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIZIspwem2s He's a pow now, here he is being interviewed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCuGmQqhpkw&t=1591s It's insane how you can connect random bits of a war online  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) awesome-express fucked around with this message at 09:28 on May 17, 2022 |
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May 17, 2022 09:24
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DeliciousPatriotism posted:Are people really having like majority experiences with activist progressive types that are in large part being Rushist apologists? I know plenty of people that feel real weird about the US involvement and are pissed that we're losing basic liberties/social welfare in the face of 33bil for Ukraine while gearing up for frightening peak fascism in our own country inside like 20 years but I don't personally know anyone who has anything but pro-Ukrainian opinions in the general view. Loud threads on twitter not reality blah blah blah and I do bump into folks here and there that knee-jerk assume anything US or NATO is bad but I really don't consider it a majority viewpoint among the quote-unquote "left" I had it out with my brother when I went home last christmas, we got to talking about the news and Russia was gearing up fairly publicly at that time. He was the first place I heard the bs about NATO expansionism, spheres of influence, 'they're ethnically Russian,' 'the US is at fault' etc. I generally avoid talking with him about politics these days, but he's far, far left, the sort of person who is so infatuated with the idea of communism that he turns a blind eye to China's atrocities too, and says that everything Stalin did is justified because he was just defending himself from US aggression and had to secure his power because the world was "adversarial" to the USSR. He seems unable to deal with the fact that Russia is not a communist state, nor has it been for his entire life. He's also so used to seeing the kind of awful poo poo the US pulls that he frames all international politics with the lens that whatever the US is doing, it's wrong. Unfortunately, I was not able to convince him that setting one's ideals in opposition to something is childlike logic. I haven't asked him if he's changed his mind about this now that there's ample evidence of genocide, in part because I don't feel like having another conversation like that with a family member, and in part because my guts tell me has hasn't changed his mind. At our talk over christmas, I kept asking him, "Does Ukraine not get a say in whether they want to be a part of Russia or not?" and his answer was no. For what it's worth our parents are smart, considered individuals, both of whom are hoping for Ukraine to win, with as little loss of life as possible. I have to assume that he's got serious internet brain rot. But to answer your question, yeah, there are real humans that believe the things which seem like they must be straw men.
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May 17, 2022 09:42
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Those people I've noticed tend to have a need to feel smarter than other people, and for whom it's more important to believe they're right and clever than to actually self-reflect and thus grow, because that requires the capacity to acknowledge the possibility that they might be wrong To learn you need to acknowledge that you might not already know everything, which is a problem that transcends political alignment
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May 17, 2022 10:02
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Azov has some parallels with HOS in the Croatian war of independence. They were a militia, organized by a far right party, and often fought under names and slogans of Ustashe, WW2 nazis. At the same time, they provided some important military operations in the time when the proper Croatian army was only forming, and they did so rather bravely and sustained heavy casualties. They also committed almost no crimes. They are a controversial topic in Croatia today. Their participation in the war is acknowledged, but when veterans show up with Ustashe slogans, there's obviously an outcry. High Court made a ruling that nazi slogans are generally forbidden... except in the context of remembering HOS. Kikas posted:Historically, this is exactly what happened though. What do you mean? Doctor Malaver fucked around with this message at 10:33 on May 17, 2022 |
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May 17, 2022 10:04
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Doctor Malaver posted:What do you mean? Well the last time one country dropped a nuke on another, both have reconsidered their approach. One went "oh gently caress okay we surrender" and the other "oh gently caress, we need to get more of these".
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May 17, 2022 10:19
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