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A Buttery Pastry posted:I mean, depends on what the purpose of the alliance is. And as pointed out earlier, if their location is going down in value due to climate change then it might not make sense to favor them over countries existing in areas less vulnerable. Why would it go down in value because of climate change, we're talking about strategic location not arable land.
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May 17, 2022 11:15
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Kamrat posted:Why would it go down in value because of climate change, we're talking about strategic location not arable land.
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May 17, 2022 12:08
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Groda posted:Except for that stupid phonetic alphabet we insist on keeping. Sorry you have to be deported. *basks in Adam Bertil Cesar, not Tango Flango Chango*
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May 17, 2022 12:24
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I'd argue the lack of mechanism makes it potentially easier, because that means you can just make one up. Given that the initial membership is based on unanimous consent, it'd follow that unanimous consent should be a requirement for staying. Now that is a bit too volatile, so just change it to a 2/3 majority vote to kick someone out. Like, the whole idea of NATO is that countries can be expected to defend each other, which obviously isn't the case if a clear majority of the alliance wants to kick them out instead. I assume making one up also reqires unanimous consent.
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May 17, 2022 12:28
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Potrzebie posted:I assume making one up also reqires unanimous consent.
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May 17, 2022 12:39
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A Buttery Pastry posted:A strategic location implies an interest in a region. If the Middle East is sufficiently destabilized then Turkey just allows you to project power into territories that no one in NATO cares about anymore. Moreover, if the instability spreads into Turkey itself then its position becomes a liability as NATO assets come under threat. There is interest in controlling the Black sea and it's in a good strategic location against Iran as well. This is a big deal for America... I mean Nato Also, in a coming climate war (if this ever happens) controlling the middle east is of the utmost importance for Nato, since desperation breeds radical behavior.
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May 17, 2022 12:50
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A Buttery Pastry posted:A strategic location implies an interest in a region. If the Middle East is sufficiently destabilized then Turkey just allows you to project power into territories that no one in NATO cares about anymore. Moreover, if the instability spreads into Turkey itself then its position becomes a liability as NATO assets come under threat. Turkey sits on one of the most important trading routes on the planet and is quite literally the gate between most of central Asia and Europe. To put a cherry on top it is in itself a massive security threat to NATO, with its claim to Cyprus being a risk to the stability of yet another of the worlds most important trading routes. So no, it is very much of strategic value and will remain so in the immediate future.
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May 17, 2022 14:23
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Groda posted:Except for that stupid phonetic alphabet we insist on keeping. I was in the national guard for ten years. Back in like 2010 there was a serious push to get us to switch over to Nato standard. It held for two years and then we quietly switched back. I have no idea if this was some mandate from HQ or if some local colonel came back from Afghanistan and decided we needed to adhere to international standards.
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May 17, 2022 14:49
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MiddleOne posted:Turkey sits on one of the most important trading routes on the planet and is quite literally the gate between most of central Asia and Europe. To put a cherry on top it is in itself a massive security threat to NATO, with its claim to Cyprus being a risk to the stability of yet another of the worlds most important trading routes. As far as I can figure out, global warming further destabilizing the middle east would make Turkey's geostrategic location more important, not less. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 17:12 on May 17, 2022 |
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May 17, 2022 15:08
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Turkey can have little a ethnic cleansing and violation of sovereign territory, as a treat. And maybe whatever the modern equivalents of Jupiter MRBMs are, that seemed to work out to everyone's benefit in the past.
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May 17, 2022 17:09
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Groda posted:Except for that stupid phonetic alphabet we insist on keeping. Nato code was added to the curriculum 20 years ago, it would take a special kind of idiot to default to fredrik over foxtrot E. When speaking English, who cares what you do in another language ThisIsJohnWayne fucked around with this message at 18:00 on May 17, 2022 |
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May 17, 2022 17:56
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Beeswax posted:Direct democracy, but only me and my friends get to vote Same, except I have no friends.
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May 17, 2022 18:13
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ThisIsJohnWayne posted:Nato code was added to the curriculum 20 years ago, it would take a special kind of idiot to default to fredrik over foxtrot Especially when Filip is correct, not Fredrik.
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May 17, 2022 18:36
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DekeThornton posted:Especially when Filip is correct, not Fredrik. Faarao!
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May 17, 2022 19:24
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So hows this Turkey/NATO thing gonna shake out? I gotta admit, I'm getting a bit pissed here. Is it me, am I being unreasonable here? Man. gently caress Turkey.
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May 19, 2022 15:07
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It's probably a good thing, for as long as it lasts. If you buy the western propaganda that Putin is acting irrationally, has megalomania and is lashing out at imagined threats from NATO it should be doubly so.
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May 19, 2022 15:31
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propaganda?
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May 19, 2022 15:36
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Well, you see, ehm, thotsky is a tankie. Yeah 
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May 19, 2022 15:50
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thotsky posted:It's probably a good thing, for as long as it lasts. 
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May 19, 2022 16:03
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I’ll now be referring to the time I drunkenly puked on myself at centralen as western propaganda. the fact that I had too many cocktails and refused to eat despite the protests of others is frankly, wholly irrelevant to the vicious lies being spread.
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May 19, 2022 16:09
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teen witch posted:I’ll now be referring to the time I drunkenly puked on myself at centralen as western propaganda. For the rest of us, it was Tuesday
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May 19, 2022 16:14
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yeah we've all had a propa ganda and came to the same conclusion, guvnah
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May 19, 2022 16:33
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teen witch posted:I’ll now be referring to the time I drunkenly puked on myself at centralen as western propaganda. 
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May 19, 2022 17:00
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I hope Turkey stops us from joining the NATO, while I don't agree with their reasons they're doing good work stopping us.
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May 19, 2022 17:09
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Would Sweden be willing to expel one or two kurdish activists if it really had to?
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May 19, 2022 17:39
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Baudolino posted:Would Sweden be willing to expel one or two kurdish activists if it really had to? A year ago I would've said no but today I don't know
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May 19, 2022 17:42
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I hope not. If thats the price to get into NATO, we're better off outside of it
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May 19, 2022 17:45
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I don't see western media reprinting completely unverified statements made by the Ukrainian government, Ukranian military, their western allies, and just randos from twitter, as any less of a propaganda effort than what is coming out of the Russian side. Adding "This has not been independently verified" at the end of every update is not some silver bullet of journalistic integrity. Also, it should be obvious that having unsubstantiated talking points repeated ad nauseam by a gallery of monstrous columnist and talking heads is just another form of social control. It is all propaganda, from both sides. Anyway, the point stands. One should not think that Putin is liable to do crazy poo poo at imagined NATO provocations and also wish for something that looks like NATO provocations. thotsky fucked around with this message at 18:36 on May 19, 2022 |
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May 19, 2022 17:54
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May 19, 2022 17:54
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Do you guys have like, actionable complaints about the cost of joining NATO or is it just defeatist ML posturing to make sure you're saying that the West is bad at every point in time? Realistically, would it make any sense whatsoever for the strategic position of Sweden to opt out of NATO if Finland joins? I'm also assuming here that the surprise here is Sweden joining, not Finland, considering their fears of getting attacked by Russia are far from unfounded.
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May 19, 2022 18:09
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Doesn't matter if "both" sides are equal partners or not in some blue-checkmarked propaganda war because the fact is that Russia has invaded Ukraine, not the other way around, and that's like super-duper undeniable.
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May 19, 2022 18:14
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Realistically, those countries have been pretty integrated in the US sphere of influence for decades, and Russia treats them as such. There is probably not much tangible benefit to joining aside from making headlines and thumbing their nose at Putin, although clearly there are arms deals and money changing hands simultaneously with this development. Both Finland and Sweden already show up for US-led military misadventures, and NATO countries easily pledged to come to their defence even though no formal alliance exists. Theoretically, if you are not a member you would have more freedom to resist taking direction from the US, and if one believes Russia, with reason or not, feels threatened by NATO, not being a part of it might seem like the safer course of action. That has been the stance of countries like Sweden for decades, despite Russia doing what imperialist countries do. But yeah, I do not approve of what the US-led NATO does and I do not want to be guilty by either association or participation. Being a part of NATO does not make me feel any safer than not being in it would, and I dislike all the stupid poo poo they make us spend money on. anatomi posted:the fact is that Russia has invaded Ukraine, not the other way around, and that's like super-duper undeniable. I don't think anyone is debating this here right now. thotsky fucked around with this message at 18:35 on May 19, 2022 |
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May 19, 2022 18:27
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Like even this idea that due to being in NATO Sweden or Finland are going to be dragged into a foreign war seems to ignore that not all of NATO joined the Iraq War and that Sweden sent soldiers to Afghanistan anyway.
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May 19, 2022 18:39
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In the current geopolitical situation, it seems like any EU/Western European country is basically a NATO country in practice, and formal membership is just a formality. It's also pretty clear that NATO is controlled by the USA, and that there's a lot of military industrial complex stuff integrated into the core of NATO, making it a really iffy thing to be a part of. There just isn't any real alternative right now, as any individual country in Europe isn't gonna provide sufficient security by itself. I honestly think getting the EU involved in defence would be a good step towards getting out of NATO, since a joined EU military would be able to measure up to Russia easily, but without going ridiculously overboard like the USA is doing. Just most of the alliance splitting out, leaving Turkey and USA and the UK and so on to their own, even if it would obviously be aligned most of the time.
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May 19, 2022 18:50
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In the end of the day I just want the US and it's imperialism to gently caress off to it's own corner of the world, how do we do this, well... not joining the US-led imperialist alliance would be a good start. I know everyone is equal on paper but that's not the case in practice, the US has huge pressure in the alliance and by joining we would be pressured to stay in line and not do our own thing. A Nordic alliance, hell even an EU one I could stand behind, but an American one, no way. fnox posted:Like even this idea that due to being in NATO Sweden or Finland are going to be dragged into a foreign war seems to ignore that not all of NATO joined the Iraq War and that Sweden sent soldiers to Afghanistan anyway. No one is forced to join a war but you're pressured to help out.
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May 19, 2022 18:52
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Kamrat posted:No one is forced to join a war but you're pressured to help out. Did you not read my post? We already did. While not being in NATO. We were pressured to help out despite having nothing to do with it. With NATO we at the very least get something back other than brownie points. If there were a better alternative in terms of alliances we'd take it, but there isn't really one. It's also like, this hilarious idea that we must oppose US imperialism, and only US imperialism, not Russian imperialism, not Chinese imperialism. The big imperialist state which is waging an imperialist war against the largest country in Europe? Ignore that, doesn't matter and if it did it's our fault anyway.
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May 19, 2022 19:07
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fnox posted:Did you not read my post? We already did. While not being in NATO. We were pressured to help out despite having nothing to do with it. With NATO we at the very least get something back other than brownie points. If there were a better alternative in terms of alliances we'd take it, but there isn't really one. Did I write somewhere I thought this was ok or something? No, we should stop doing that as well, joining an imperialist alliance is not the answer. fnox posted:It's also like, this hilarious idea that we must oppose US imperialism, and only US imperialism, not Russian imperialism, not Chinese imperialism. The big imperialist state which is waging an imperialist war against the largest country in Europe? Ignore that, doesn't matter and if it did it's our fault anyway. Also, what are you even talking about, is opposing US imperialism and Russian imperialism mutually exclusive in your mind or something? Even if that was true US imperialism is far more destructive than Russian imperialism anyway.
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May 19, 2022 19:14
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Kamrat posted:Also, what are you even talking about, is opposing US imperialism and Russian imperialism mutually exclusive in your mind or something? Even if that was true US imperialism is far more destructive than Russian imperialism anyway. How? I'm sorry but just, how can it possibly be more destructive for Scandinavia, when the only one of the two that could possibly, feasibly attack us is Russia? Also, are you serious, Russian imperialism is "less destructive"? Largest mass migration thus far since Syria (which was also loving exacerbated by Russian imperialism), largest land war since WWII, a body count that is a quarter that of the Iraq War except within 3 months instead of 8 years. Get loving real.
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May 19, 2022 19:28
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Do Russians count as whites? I need to know this before I can make up my mind about the situation.
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May 19, 2022 19:58
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russians are basically just swedes who thought the climate was too temperate and swedes are, in the immortal words of Benjamin Franklin, a swarthy people
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