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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:Tensions are high because muikku supplies are low. ...ngl, now i want to try it
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May 20, 2022 05:19
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GreyjoyBastard posted:aren't you literally Finnish They're right in the sense that Oklahoma is majority Christian with an evangelical Baptist minority within that who are probably very conservative but as someone who is also not from Oklahoma or very personally accuainted with Christians there I think we both have the same ground view which is none. Also as to the question of why you don't use more progressive religious movement, we already have them and they primarily live in blue states. You're not going to flip stars using religion trying to import new ones, you need to meet people where they are first. How many are out and out unreachable bigots and how many are reachable? I have no idea and you would need to do on the ground research to build any movement. The actual for real Christian message is a message that should resonate with leftists and can be harnessed to move people left. It's tossing out an old system of laws for compassion. The biggest problem with evangelical Christianity is sola fide, the belief that belief alone promises salvation. You still need to be a holy person and do good acts but that's all evidence of your belief and not acts you must perform for salvation. This is uh, insanely heretical. But no one really cares about that poo poo and reforms are just races to see who can better misunderstand original texts. Also, as to the idea any state is unsavable, the evangelical christians are a slim minority in Oklahoma. Even if you think every single one of them is an unsavable bigot who is more monster than human, you're deciding it's not worth helping the majority who are suffering from their death cult. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 05:36 on May 20, 2022 |
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May 20, 2022 05:31
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E: quote isn't edit
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May 20, 2022 05:33
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Gumball Gumption posted:
I’m sorry, you’re taking one of the major points of the Reformation itself and calling it “insanely heretical”? You’re really going to rage against Martin Luther as the real problem here? Who are you to declare what is and isn’t proper doctrine? Also, shoving all evangelical denominations into the same pot doesn’t make any sense at all. There are massive differences between Lutherans and Baptists.
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May 20, 2022 06:16
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GreyjoyBastard posted:aren't you literally Finnish Uhh I live in Oklahoma City (have lived here my whole life) and the poster is 100% correct. Religion in Oklahoma is a satanic blend of authoritarian racism, violent nationalism, and unhinged prosperity gospel. Our legislature just passed a Bill that makes a zygote a person. It is the most politically hopeless state in the country.
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May 20, 2022 06:25
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:It is the most politically hopeless state in the country. I feel like Mississippi still has a leg up on it.
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May 20, 2022 06:48
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GreyjoyBastard posted:aren't you literally Finnish Fwiw while they are not wrong about the lay of the land, given that the poster mentioned the denomination by name, it's also relevant that Oklahoma has some of the oldest and largest extant congregations of Unitarian Universalists.
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May 20, 2022 06:56
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Solkanar512 posted:I’m sorry, you’re taking one of the major points of the Reformation itself and calling it “insanely heretical”? You’re really going to rage against Martin Luther as the real problem here? Who are you to declare what is and isn’t proper doctrine? In terms of US religious movements, "Evangelicalism" is a distinct movement from mainline Protestant churches, and is founded in Second Great Awakening stuff. It leads to strange things like how the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is not evangelical, but the Lutheran Missouri Synod is. Likewise, the American Baptists are mainline Protestant while the Southern Baptists are evangelical. And the gap between mainline and evangelical churches has become bigger in many ways than internal differences in detailed theology, just since the gap in focus, practice, and culture has overshadowed the rest. There are even Catholics who consider themselves Evangelicals and feel more common purpose with Southern Baptists than with the mainstream Catholic church. A lot of the differences end up being things like biblical literalism, born-again ideology, and generally injecting religious teachings into your interactions with others, but there's a difference in the view of faith vs works too. Mainstream Lutheranism holds that salvation comes from faith alone, but also holds that good works are evidence of faith, and someone who has found salvation through faith will do good works as a matter of consequence. Evangelical Lutheranism might still hold that technically, I'm not sure, but they generally have a very different view of the kind of good works that save you. Which is why "Donald Trump might be a sinner but he's clearly doing God's work!" is way easier for evangelicals to say than mainstream Protestants or Catholics.
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May 20, 2022 08:02
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TipTow posted:Which, as I said, was among the best returns for him in the nation. Do you have a point to make, or merely the snarky white noise? Debs' relative success in Oklahoma comes off of its heavy sharecropping economy in that period. It's a pretty slim level of relative success, but generally, the base for socialists in the rural areas in this period was sharecroppers. This is no longer the case. Indeed, if you read Debs' speeches, he does sound like a preacher, but then so did most every politician at that time. There's a tendency in online discourse, I think, to just kind of assume that the political lean that you have is the one everyone else secretly has and that it's the one that will win elections. I'm not sure there's a substantive way to win Oklahoma in a way that captures the religion of the area that doesn't cause unacceptable compromises in more core areas. Historically, the Socialist party did best relative to the population in New York, and there was a period where they could win elections fairly consistently in NYC, even sending a US House rep.
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May 20, 2022 11:23
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GreyjoyBastard posted:aren't you literally Finnish ...am I wrong? I'd also say that pointing out past socialist history of Oklahoma as a reason for why there would be potential for leftists ignores kind of one very important thing...most American unions were racist as gently caress. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:24 on May 20, 2022 |
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May 20, 2022 13:20
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Panzeh posted:generally, the base for socialists in the rural areas in this period was sharecroppers. This is no longer the case. . . Historically, the Socialist party did best relative to the population in New York, and there was a period where they could win elections fairly consistently in NYC, even sending a US House rep. Both Engels and Lenin noticed how few "American Americans" (as Lenin termed them) were joining the Marxist movement. It wasn't until 1936 that the CPUSA could claim that the majority of its membership was born in the United States (compared to 70% foreign-born in 1933.) DarkCrawler posted:most American unions were racist as gently caress. That being said, the Socialist Party's leadership did accommodate racism, to the extent of permitting segregated locals in the South, as Philip S. Foner notes in his American Socialism and Black Americans. Debs himself criticized racism, but he wasn't a leader of the party and didn't want to be. Enver Zogha fucked around with this message at 14:18 on May 20, 2022 |
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May 20, 2022 13:26
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Good news keeps on rolling in! Another mass shooting, this time in Chicago https://apnews.com/article/crime-shootings-chicago-5b8abfd9f6488cecd891d435dcb66a0f Police: Chicago shooting leaves 2 people dead, 8 wounded quote:CHICAGO (AP) — Two people are dead and another eight wounded following a shooting near a fast food restaurant in Chicago that sent bystanders scattering, authorities said. And things keep getting worse and worse for Biden Biden’s approval dips to lowest of presidency: AP-NORC poll https://apnews.com/article/biden-approval-rating-drops-ap-norc-poll-d41bce85e1b062b588a32908b2affa65 quote:President Joe Biden’s approval rating dipped to the lowest point of his presidency in May, a new poll shows, with deepening pessimism emerging among members of his own Democratic Party. I'm honestly surprised his AR with democrats is that high. I don't any people on my side of the political spectrum that are happy with him
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May 20, 2022 13:30
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Those are some dire numbers. Possibly the worst I can recall seeing among a president’s own voters
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May 20, 2022 13:32
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:It is the most politically hopeless state in the country. A self-fulfilling prophecy. I've lived here my whole life ('sup OKC posting buddy) and I can tell you that a part of the reason our legislature passed a bill making a zygote a person is because this place was abandoned by national Democrats 20+ years ago. It "made more sense" to focus energy and resources into battleground states. And now even with a trifecta in the federal government the Democrats can't or won't do poo poo. DarkCrawler posted:...am I wrong? Maybe? I don't have any data on hand, and yes of course conservative evangelical Christianity is bigger here than elsewhere in the U.S. but saying "most strands" is a bit of a statement and I'm disinclined to believe it but of course would welcome data. Not everyone who goes to church every Sunday is some insane bible-thumping theocrat. DarkCrawler posted:I'd also say that pointing out past socialist history of Oklahoma as a reason for why there would be potential for leftists ignores kind of one very important thing...most American unions were racist as gently caress. As for this, you should try reading some of the articles I posted earlier. The Green Corn Rebellion was explicitly multi-racial. Anyway, didn't mean to make US CE all about Oklahoma.
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May 20, 2022 13:34
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Solkanar512 posted:I’m sorry, you’re taking one of the major points of the Reformation itself and calling it “insanely heretical”? You’re really going to rage against Martin Luther as the real problem here? Who are you to declare what is and isn’t proper doctrine? I mean, I don't think being a cult nation has been very good for America and that is one of the central beliefs of the cults that built this country. I'm being glib but from the direction of how do you harness religion to get people to do left wing things and help others, your central belief being that you do those things to show off your faith isn't helpful.
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May 20, 2022 13:45
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Killer robot posted:In terms of US religious movements, "Evangelicalism" is a distinct movement from mainline Protestant churches, and is founded in Second Great Awakening stuff. It leads to strange things like how the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is not evangelical, but the Lutheran Missouri Synod is. Likewise, the American Baptists are mainline Protestant while the Southern Baptists are evangelical. And the gap between mainline and evangelical churches has become bigger in many ways than internal differences in detailed theology, just since the gap in focus, practice, and culture has overshadowed the rest. There are even Catholics who consider themselves Evangelicals and feel more common purpose with Southern Baptists than with the mainstream Catholic church. I was assuming they meant specifically evangelical denominations of Lutheran and Baptist but we have a guy arguing it's all Martin Luther's fault--never mind all the protestant nations that had movements just as wacky as the puritans back in the sixteen hundreds--so I don't even know anymore.
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May 20, 2022 14:02
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BiggerBoat posted:I'm honestly surprised his AR with democrats is that high. I don't any people on my side of the political spectrum that are happy with him My Boomer mother-in-law loves him almost entirely because he's Not Trump. While I may have missed it, did student loan forgiveness ever come back into the news since the SCOTUS leak? That's my incredibly low-bar litmus test for voting for Democrats this mid-term. No loan forgiveness from Biden, all races get a "None of the Above" write-in.
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May 20, 2022 14:03
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BiggerBoat posted:And things keep getting worse and worse for Biden Job approval means different things to different people. For some people, the scope is narrow (such as blame for inflation, gas prices, stagnant legislature, etc not being his since it's out of his direct/immediate control), for some people the scope is broad (he should push harder, sign more executive orders even if they'll get stayed/overturned, etc). On top of that, I'm sure there's core group who will always just say "yes" to job approval for anyone who is a part of the same political party they identify with. Kalit fucked around with this message at 14:13 on May 20, 2022 |
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May 20, 2022 14:08
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Cheesus posted:Do you know any well-off Democrats? It hasn't come back into the news in a significant way (There are republicans who are pushing a bill to prevent student loan forgiveness but it's not exactly breaking news that they'd be opposed to it and it's not like it'd pass right now either) so I suspect it's on the backburner until the next student loan expiration period, especially since the SCOTUS leak gave dems something to run on for midterms.
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May 20, 2022 14:10
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The interesting thing about the AP poll is that it shows Dems' dropping approvals of Biden while other polls show that the abortion issue has energized mainly Democratic voters.Kalit posted:Job approval means different things to different people. For some people, the scope is narrow (such as blame for inflation, gas prices, stagnant legislature, etc not being his since it's out of his direct/immediate control), for some people the scope is broad (he should push harder, sign more executive orders even if they'll get stayed/overturned, etc). The AP story, if you read it, goes into the details you're seeking; it covers his broken-out approvals on the economy, immigration & the Ukraine war, and compares them with prior polling.
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May 20, 2022 14:52
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Cheesus posted:Do you know any well-off Democrats? I hope you mean "all federal races" because your local reps need all the support they can get and can't do poo poo about federal student loans.
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May 20, 2022 14:59
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Willa Rogers posted:The AP story, if you read it, goes into the details you're seeking; it covers his broken-out approvals on the economy, immigration & the Ukraine war, and compares them with prior polling. I was referring to just the last sentence of BiggerBoat's post, with them being surprised that there are people who still [overall] approve of Biden. Sorry if that was unclear. Kalit fucked around with this message at 15:19 on May 20, 2022 |
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May 20, 2022 15:02
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Solkanar512 posted:I hope you mean "all federal races" because your local reps need all the support they can get and can't do poo poo about federal student loans. My local (Democrat) reps who spout off about needing to fund the police? They need my help? For what?
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May 20, 2022 15:16
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TipTow posted:A self-fulfilling prophecy. I've lived here my whole life ('sup OKC posting buddy) and I can tell you that a part of the reason our legislature passed a bill making a zygote a person is because this place was abandoned by national Democrats 20+ years ago. It "made more sense" to focus energy and resources into battleground states. And now even with a trifecta in the federal government the Democrats can't or won't do poo poo. I get it. I've lived my whole life in flyover country, and the last decade plus in Oklahoma. It's frustrating to see people dismiss your entire life based on where you live, and it's frustrating to watch the national DNC abandon people who might otherwise vote for them. quote:Anyway, didn't mean to make US CE all about Oklahoma. Yeah that. eta: Blue Footed Booby posted:I was assuming they meant specifically evangelical denominations of Lutheran and Baptist but we have a guy arguing it's all Martin Luther's fault--never mind all the protestant nations that had movements just as wacky as the puritans back in the sixteen hundreds--so I don't even know anymore. It's not Martin Luther, or even the Reformation in total. It's the fact that American Evangelicals have turned the American civil religion into their for realsies religion and now worship the American nation alongside (or even in place of) God. Fighting Trousers fucked around with this message at 15:35 on May 20, 2022 |
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May 20, 2022 15:28
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Fighting Trousers posted:It's not Martin Luther, or even the Reformation in total. It's the fact that American Evangelicals have turned the American civil religion into their for realsies religion and now worship the American nation alongside (or even in place of) God. But only a very specific version of america which only exists in their fantasy. Which is in keeping with their behavior being dictated by a very specific version of Jesus that only exists in their fantasy so there it is.
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May 20, 2022 15:36
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:It is the most politically hopeless state in the country. I dunno Idaho is getting pretty crazy. Literal Dominionists running around saying they're going to shoot all the DEMONcrats running for office and/or intimidating others out of office.
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May 20, 2022 16:01
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TipTow posted:A self-fulfilling prophecy. I've lived here my whole life ('sup OKC posting buddy) and I can tell you that a part of the reason our legislature passed a bill making a zygote a person is because this place was abandoned by national Democrats 20+ years ago. It "made more sense" to focus energy and resources into battleground states. And now even with a trifecta in the federal government the Democrats can't or won't do poo poo. I mean, it would have made more sense if for some reason adding more states had not become this bizarre anathema to the Democratic Party/United States in general. There's no reason to focus on Oklahoma if you can wrest enough power to add a few stars to the flag - if DC isn't an option there are still others. As we already know, populations between states don't matter so who cares, U.S. Virgin Islands is now Island Virginia with two senators. But yes, if you limit yourself to 50 states then abandoning any state is idiotic. Then again, the Democratic Party has long since abandoned political domination over being a vehicle of political cronyism and influence and secure jobs for loyalists and leadership regardless of actual political results and a handful of starry-eyed hopefuls. quote:Maybe? I don't have any data on hand, and yes of course conservative evangelical Christianity is bigger here than elsewhere in the U.S. but saying "most strands" is a bit of a statement and I'm disinclined to believe it but of course would welcome data. Not everyone who goes to church every Sunday is some insane bible-thumping theocrat. I mean glancing at Wikipedia it seems to be 50% evangelical Christians, 30% some other strain of Christianity, which is pretty big. Also 70% white. And the last election was like +33 Trump. Even if you aren't a bible-thumping theocrat it still doesn't remove all the other reasons people vote Republican. Mainly, and tied to many others, white supremacy. Not that there isn't anything to gain from progressive faith outreach, it is a pretty good way to move voters (black churches already do it for Democrats without necessarily always being all that progressive for reasons of sheer survival). quote:As for this, you should try reading some of the articles I posted earlier. The Green Corn Rebellion was explicitly multi-racial. And involved a thousand people or so and ended pretty badly by all accounts. I don't think there was ever much of a multi-racial strain in U.S. labor/socialism in the South except for few instances like that. quote:Anyway, didn't mean to make US CE all about Oklahoma. I mean it makes for a similar case all around U.S, though - if they ever were potential Democratic states (beyond Southern Democrats) the weight of history, America's bonkers political system and partisanship have made them impossible to gain for Democrats now and the answers to their problems don't realistically lie in winning any state like Oklahoma. For state-specific things, if we assume competence and greater ambition beyond fat stacks would have somehow taken them over, hey should work more on making purple states certain Democratic states by smart campaigning, mass mobilization of voters and playing as dirty with gerrymandering, judicial appointments, gubernatorial bullshit and whatnot. But obviously, they won't because most of their jobs will be secure enough either way 
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 16:13 on May 20, 2022 |
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May 20, 2022 16:06
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Kalit posted:Job approval means different things to different people. For some people, the scope is narrow (such as blame for inflation, gas prices, stagnant legislature, etc not being his since it's out of his direct/immediate control), for some people the scope is broad (he should push harder, sign more executive orders even if they'll get stayed/overturned, etc). I get it. I think that by and large the GOP is overall more prone to that tribalism though. I'd also imagine a big part of that 75% constitutes a lot of "better than Trump" thinking, along with deflecting the blame to congress EDIT And I feel confident that the states I edited into the post I quoted on the last page are lost for at least the rest of my lifetime. I don't see how citing some numbers from over 100 years ago is supposed to make me think I should have any misplaced hope about that. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 17:48 on May 20, 2022 |
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May 20, 2022 17:43
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Good https://twitter.com/redistrict/status/1527677794607587335?s=21&t=H3TZ1aq0PKgNiF5MQqKr7g AIPAC and other lovely groups spent absurd money to try and stop her and they failed
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May 20, 2022 18:17
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FlamingLiberal posted:Good Israel is one of those issues that many politicians either are in support of (sending money, weapons, protecting their apartheid state and crimes against humanity) or tiptoe around because of the money and being labelled, but also because they think voters care. In reality, most voters do not care about Israel and if they do, it's not anywhere near one of their top priorities. Israel may also have an outsized influence in online spaces like comment sections and twitter, but that isn't representative of how voters feel.
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May 20, 2022 18:35
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That’s true, which is why it’s so insane that these groups have so much outsized influence on that issue
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May 20, 2022 18:39
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https://twitter.com/whcos/status/1527676466284183553?s=21&t=AOMbKl9yIsDEiRyIBo5H3A First, shouting out that the economy is doing good actually while more and more people are struggling is extremely tone deaf. I doubt the average person is going to care about this when there are more pressing and material concerns. Second, they’re playing into sinophobia with this kind of rhetoric. They need to stop trying to position China as the enemy and focus more on the issues at home. Third, the US has over 1 million COVID deaths while China has had a little over 5k. Clearly, China is placing more value on actual human lives than the economy. Meanwhile, the US continues to let people die from it and won’t provide any more relief.
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May 20, 2022 19:48
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theCalamity posted:Meanwhile, the US continues to let people die from it and won’t provide any more relief. You can't really understate people's own behaviour in that, though. Sure people are still dying a whole bunch in the US and North America in general, but we have access to vaccines and masks and our vaccination rates (especially with regard to boosters) are abysmal, and I hardly ever see people wearing masks. You can no more force people to take COVID seriously than you can force them to quit smoking or alcoholism. These things are killing people and there's no will on the part of the people dying to make any sort of change.
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May 20, 2022 19:54
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That "lowest unemployment" thing is also disingenuous as poo poo, and really perverse to be bragging about.
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May 20, 2022 19:54
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PT6A posted:You can't really understate people's own behaviour in that, though. Sure people are still dying a whole bunch in the US and North America in general, but we have access to vaccines and masks and our vaccination rates (especially with regard to boosters) are abysmal, and I hardly ever see people wearing masks. You can no more force people to take COVID seriously than you can force them to quit smoking or alcoholism. These things are killing people and there's no will on the part of the people dying to make any sort of change. Not sure I understand this take. We've done a ton of stuff wrt regulations to make people quit smoking (or never start in the first place) and it's had a demonstrable effect on the number of people who smoke now compared to 20 years ago.
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May 20, 2022 19:59
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rscott posted:Not sure I understand this take. We've done a ton of stuff wrt regulations to make people quit smoking (or never start in the first place) and it's had a demonstrable effect on the number of people who smoke now compared to 20 years ago. Right, and we've tried a lot of things to try to get people to get vaccinated and wear masks too (some of it has definitely increased the number of people taking those precautions), but you have to accept that you just can't reach everyone. Wearing a mask or getting a quick vaccination is a hell of a lot easier than quitting an addiction and yet people are still like "no thank you, I'd rather roll the dice with a deadly virus a few times." I agree it's not an exact parallel but the main point is: you can point people in the right direction but you can't save people who don't want to be saved.
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May 20, 2022 20:02
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rscott posted:Not sure I understand this take. We've done a ton of stuff wrt regulations to make people quit smoking (or never start in the first place) and it's had a demonstrable effect on the number of people who smoke now compared to 20 years ago. It's just "welp we tried " with little actual consideration on if we actually tried or not. You can't force little to quit drinking or smoking but you can incentivize them too, the same way you can incentivize mask wearing and covid precautions. But mass action and incentivizing instead of outlawing and forcing compliance don't have a lot of traction in the US so the current attitude is we tried and anyone who didn't comply is a personal failing and nothing to do with the larger society.
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May 20, 2022 20:03
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rscott posted:Not sure I understand this take. We've done a ton of stuff wrt regulations to make people quit smoking (or never start in the first place) and it's had a demonstrable effect on the number of people who smoke now compared to 20 years ago. We haven't banned smoking, though. We've just banned or taxed the sale of tobacco. Because you can't actually ban smoking, just make it inconvenient. Covid is free. How are you suggesting we make getting Covid inconvenient via regulation?
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May 20, 2022 20:04
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COVID is inherently inconvenient in the short term in addition to being risky for one's health in the long term, possibly, and we know how to vastly cut down on the risk of either, and people aren't motivated to do any of it. If "you could die or suffer long-term illness" isn't enough to get people to act responsibly, how the gently caress is any amount of regulation going to move the needle?
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May 20, 2022 20:05
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Gumball Gumption posted:You can't force little to quit drinking or smoking but you can incentivize them too, the same way you can incentivize mask wearing and covid precautions. We don't incentivize not drinking or smoking, though. We don't reward people at all for quitting either. quote:But mass action and incentivizing instead of outlawing and forcing compliance don't have a lot of traction in the US so the current attitude is we tried and anyone who didn't comply is a personal failing and nothing to do with the larger society. We haven't outlawed or forced compliance with abstaining from alcohol or tobacco anywhere.
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May 20, 2022 20:06
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