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A Wizard of Goatse posted:yeah Very Important people want her dead and longterm survival is unrealistic, so she should just quit being a silly billy and take one for the team so those important people are not tragically forced to keep hurting others. How come people don't get that the Sunday Friend is the real protagonist I couldn't give a rat's rear end about Moralintern, but I do care about the next Ruby and the next Titus she's inevitably going to throw under the bus for another precious week of life
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May 25, 2022 23:32
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the moralintern literally already sicced a kill squad on Titus before they had any idea she was around, Ruby's an outlaw well aware they'll eventually come for her much the same, you cannot appease capital through human sacrifices and should probably interrogate your instinct to do so
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May 25, 2022 23:35
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No Dignity posted:I couldn't give a rat's rear end about Moralintern, but I do care about the next Ruby and the next Titus she's inevitably going to throw under the bus for another precious week of life Nor should you. God is in his heaven, and all is right with the world.
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May 25, 2022 23:37
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christmas boots posted:My heart tells me that Klassje has some part to play in it, for good or evil, before this is over. So she’s Gollum? gently caress the moralintern is why I let her go.
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May 25, 2022 23:39
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:the moralintern literally already sicced a kill squad on Titus before they had any idea she was around, Ruby's an outlaw well aware they'll eventually come for her, you cannot appease the oligarchy through human sacrifices and should probably interrogate your instinct to do so I don't know why you keep bringing up appeasing Moralintern, my only point is that she keeps burning other people to save her own skin and that's repulsive. Any sympathy I had for her vanished when I failed the check to stop Ruby killing herself
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May 25, 2022 23:41
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The entire argument needs to stop a few steps earlier and consider why you think it should be your call to make at all, as harry or as the person playing the game. When you hit the inherent cruelty of cop brain... hit da bricks. Just walk out, you can leave
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May 25, 2022 23:42
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Thankfully my arbitrary choices in video games reflect my social sensibilities *shoots a dude in the crotch 1000 times in 2000's Soldier of Fortune*
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May 25, 2022 23:45
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No Mods No Masters posted:Just walk out, you can leave Alternately you can’t in the sense of “Hell is other people”
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May 25, 2022 23:47
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No Dignity posted:I don't know why you keep bringing up appeasing Moralintern, my only point is that she keeps burning other people to save her own skin and that's repulsive. Any sympathy I had for her vanished when I failed the check to stop Ruby killing herself
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May 25, 2022 23:52
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No Mods No Masters posted:The entire argument needs to stop a few steps earlier and consider why you think it should be your call to make at all, as harry or as the person playing the game. When you hit the inherent cruelty of cop brain... hit da bricks. Just walk out, you can leave Sure, I think it's completely fair. My point wasn't what the right moral choice was to make was, just that she deeply, intensely sucks
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May 25, 2022 23:52
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Klaasje does suck. But she could get better. And so could Harry
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May 25, 2022 23:55
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But Kim is perfect just as he is.
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May 25, 2022 23:58
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Owlbear Camus posted:But Kim is perfect just as he is.   Here is a picture of Kim we can take from the good discussion of the game to enjoy.
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May 26, 2022 00:07
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No Dignity posted:It is remarkable how they took 'Homer Simpson arguing with his brain' and turned it into such a rich, faceted and incredibly entertaining mechanic
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May 26, 2022 00:34
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Fabricated posted:I'm interested to see if any AA/AAA studio takes a shot at straight ripping it off and how badly they'll botch it. I wouldn't be surprised if David Cage/Quantic Dream cribbed some superficial bits.
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May 26, 2022 00:45
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I would find Klaasje 100x more sympathetic if her last act in trying to save her own life, which she admits is miserably empty and selfish, was to lie and throw someone who cared about her in harms way. That really showed me the type of person she was. Sure, people are capable of change, and they're also capable of making the same choices they've made before. Klaasje wasn't found in Martinaise helping people. The remorse of ruining people's lives and driving at least one to suicide didn't change her amoral, self-serving behavior. In fact, her decision to frame Ruby could potentially lead to another suicide. gently caress the MI, but she's one of their ilk. She was a corporate spy who got burned by people playing the same game better than she did. If the opportunities she had were just a little different, I can easily see her working for people like the Sunday Friend, doing whatever dirty business they needed doing in order to keep Revachol suppressed. No Dignity posted:I couldn't give a rat's rear end about Moralintern, but I do care about the next Ruby and the next Titus she's inevitably going to throw under the bus for another precious week of life If I could only make the choice once, it would be to arrest Klaasje, and this is why. I could not accept responsibility for whichever lives she'd ruin next in her ongoing quest for meaningless self-preservation. No Mods No Masters posted:The entire argument needs to stop a few steps earlier and consider why you think it should be your call to make at all, as harry or as the person playing the game. When you hit the inherent cruelty of cop brain... hit da bricks. Just walk out, you can leave What if you're the one who needs to make the call because you happen to be the one who has the means at hand, in that moment, to make the call? Yes, you can walk away from this particular trolley problem, but that is also making a choice which will lead to consequences that you could have altered one way or the other.
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May 26, 2022 01:14
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re: Klaasje - You can't "redeem" Klaasje because she's just some crappy chick in a world that isn't good enough. She sucks too, sure, but the lynching wasn't her idea and it's not like she did anything to cause Lely's murder. He randomly died and Ruby came up with the idea for the Hardy boys to turn it into a political stunt. They didn't do it to nobly protect what they thought was a defenseless maiden (though that may have been part of it, especially for Ruby), it was an opportunity to flex on Wild Pines and they were all too happy to take the risk. The Clare brothers gleefully allowed this to happen knowing it might lead to the tribunal because any outcome there was a win. If Wild Pines backed down, the Union would be able to continue seizing the means of production unchallenged, and if the company flew off the handle and killed everyone, that would reignite the revolutionary spirit in the general public and potentially even draw international support for the cause. I'd say out of the whole group, only the mercenaries, the sniper, and the Clares are really all that despicable. Many people (not me, but) would even argue that the Clares' ends justify their means. Remember too that Klaasje called the police at great personal risk. If she had done the smart thing and dipped, the Hardy Boys and probably a lot of other people would have been slaughtered by Krenel. She stayed long enough to make sure Harry and Kim got the evidence they needed to catch the real killer. This cost her a lot - the phasmid eventually found her buoy and ate her fake passport, so she's probably not having a good time wherever she went. In my opinion she's not that bad. A white collar spy loving with corporations and banks doesn't really register for me on the morality scale, and while she has bad taste in men, she's not responsible for anything Lely or Krenel did. If you do believe she is as bad as all that, what could she possibly do to make up for it? It's a big theme of the game that real people don't get redemption arcs. Harry can get as sober and communist as he wants and he's always going to be the drunk violent rear end in a top hat cop who paralyzed two relatively innocent people and traumatized the entire town of Martinaise, plus all the other poo poo he's done in his life. If you were close to him you might understand that he had done a lot of work to make a personal change, but to most of the world he'd always be the worst person he'd ever been, which is a big source of his pathos - he also feels that way about himself. Also I don't think Klaasje going to Steampunk Gitmo would actually make anyone feel like she had been redeemed, it would just put her in a black box where nobody would have to think about or look at her, except I guess the guards who would torture and/or execute her or whatever they had planned. It didn't sound good! worm girl fucked around with this message at 01:57 on May 26, 2022 |
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May 26, 2022 01:51
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Doc Hawkins posted:i hope its suzerainty This is a tangent I know, but Suzerain is a really drat good video game and I literally only bought it because of the name similarity. I'm very glad I did.
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May 26, 2022 02:07
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worm girl posted:re: Klaasje - You can't "redeem" Klaasje because she's just some crappy chick in a world that isn't good enough. She sucks too, sure, but the lynching wasn't her idea and it's not like she did anything to cause Lely's murder. He randomly died and Ruby came up with the idea for the Hardy boys to turn it into a political stunt. They didn't do it to nobly protect what they thought was a defenseless maiden (though that may have been part of it, especially for Ruby), it was an opportunity to flex on Wild Pines and they were all too happy to take the risk. Yes, the lynching was her idea. Klaasje lied about it being Ruby's. In fact, Ruby specifically mentions that she did think about the political consequences, but figured the merc's death would have led to that anyway. (And Drama tells you she feels guilty about that.) As far as I know, there's no evidence Ruby and the Hardies went along with Klaasje's idea to flex on Wild Pines. Klaasje set up the fake lynching, likely knowing perfectly well what it would lead to. She also knew to fake the lividity with the shower head, so I'm not so sure what she did for the Moralintern was really just corporate espionage. Then she tried to have Titus take the fall, and when he ratted her out she blamed Ruby for the fake lynching. Even after Harry figures out she's lying, she just shifts to another lie. I don't think it's accurate at all to say that she stayed to make sure Harry and Kim got the evidence they needed. Yes, the smart thing would have been to bail immediately, but people are rarely completely rational. Not wanting to leave doesn't mean she had some altruistic reason for staying. She probably just liked Martinaise and hoped she could stay, even if she probably knew that was stupid. And I don't think anyone's suggesting arresting her would redeem her somehow—just that she would be dead, and no longer able to ruin people's lives.
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May 26, 2022 02:21
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why did she call the RCM that's probably what my personal reaction to her hinged on
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May 26, 2022 02:26
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she says something to the effect that she had a momentary lapse of reason
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May 26, 2022 02:31
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Could honestly be as simple as kinda wanting justice for Lely and/or hoping that seeming to cooperate would get her off the hook. Probably the most compelling piece of evidence for giving her a station summons imo is one that i can't remember if you can actually get it before the choice - an Esprit de Corps vision that confirms that whatever the hell else she's lying about, the Moralintern will in fact black bag her.
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May 26, 2022 02:31
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the most telling piece of evidence about klassje’s true feelings over the lynching is also the most obvious: the fact that she spends all day on the balcony. part of her wants the shooter to finish her off if she was completely self interested then she wouldn’t have chosen that place to smoke
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May 26, 2022 02:35
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^^^^^^^^^^^^That makes sense too.Doc Hawkins posted:why did she call the RCM I think she genuinely wanted justice. For all her fake outer shell, I think she connected with the mercenary on a deep personal level. Both of them were corporate soldiers risking their life for someone else's money. Both of them used drugs and sex as an escape.
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May 26, 2022 02:37
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No Dignity posted:It is remarkable HALF LIGHT: Why can't I have no kids and 3 money?
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May 26, 2022 02:42
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she’s also genuinely unnerved at the insinuation that she was ”the love that did [lely] in.” to anyone else it’d just be another of Harry’s non sequiturs but she’s so rattled by it that she actually brings it up later in the conversation (“I’m the love that does people in, remember?”), which is a major slip for someone as cagey as her klassje must have thought that despite her attempts to renounce her old ways, people still died just from their proximity to her. she reverted to her old behavior during the coverup, but then made one last attempt to claw it back when she placed the call, which is also what might doom her in the end despite everything, she didn’t want to be that kind of animal anymore
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May 26, 2022 02:44
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Staltran posted:Yes, the lynching was her idea. Klaasje lied about it being Ruby's. In fact, Ruby specifically mentions that she did think about the political consequences, but figured the merc's death would have led to that anyway. (And Drama tells you she feels guilty about that.) As far as I know, there's no evidence Ruby and the Hardies went along with Klaasje's idea to flex on Wild Pines. That does put somewhat more blame on Klaasje, but again, the Clares would not have allowed any of this to happen if it wasn't exactly what they wanted. They could have sent Measurehead down there to remove the corpse at any time before the police were called, or told the Hardy boys (who report directly to them) to knock it off. There's no chance the tribunal wouldn't have happened anyway - it was a confrontation that was far bigger than any of the people directly involved in it. And it's not as if it's the fake lynching that ruined Ruby's life, she got hosed over because she was running drugs and police attention from the whole affair was going to expose her. She could simply have chosen not to be a huge smuggler. I think the point is also probably that you could see it either way. The game takes pains to show you how despicable the Moralintern and the Communists are, but it never really tells you that one of them is good and one is bad. As you mentioned, even if you make your rolls and see through all of Klaasje's bullshit, Volition tells you straight up that you still don't have the right story, and she probably doesn't either. Something similar happens with Joyce, where she tells you all this romantic and terrifying stuff about her adventures in the Pale and then you go talk to Evrart and he's like "She's an alcoholic, Harry. They all are. She's full of poo poo and none of that happened." But like, Evrart's full of poo poo, too? In any event, I don't think that lying is a big enough crime to get someone disappeared over, even if it is lying about a murder, and if Klaasje's guilty enough for rendition then there are several other people in the story who deserve a lot worse than they get. GreyjoyBastard posted:Could honestly be as simple as kinda wanting justice for Lely This is a factor too, unless we're just going to decide that every single thing Klaasje says is a complete lie, in which case there's not much to discuss. The game invites you to spare some empathy for a guy who never did that for anyone in his life, and more than a few times people angrily ask you why you're even bothering to investigate the murder of someone who didn't deserve to live. I'm comfortable calling Lely a bad guy and he certainly had it coming, but the game leaves who should have the power to make those decisions and when as open questions. Dang it's good writing! I don't agree with some people here but neither do I feel like they misunderstood the text. That's so rare in games. worm girl fucked around with this message at 03:03 on May 26, 2022 |
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May 26, 2022 03:01
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I think the last few pages of discussion is just a testament to how good the writing of this game really is.
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May 26, 2022 03:05
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But did Klaasje also lie about partying *unconventionally?*
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May 26, 2022 03:27
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The way I figure it, klassje hasn't shown sufficient indication that she's not simply going to hurt people and keep throwing them under busses when it suits her, and on the balance of things she's probably more likely to get someone innocent killed in future than not. She's also most likely quite literally a spook, like, far beyond 'incidental corporate espionage when the opportunity presents itself' - level given how she's able to come up with a way to construct forensic indicators in order to fake the cause of someone's death within minutes of having their brains blown out all over her and while shatteringly high. Even when you call her out on her lies all she does is reveal the next layer of lies and half-truths. Even when you find her documents it's essentially meaningless because they're probably yet another layer of bullshit. All klassje does is hurt people and cover for herself. And I'm not sure that feeling bad for the rapacious war criminal she'd been loving to the point where she calls the cops to report his death is exactly a huge argument in her favour.
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May 26, 2022 04:14
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Breetai posted:The way I figure it, klassje hasn't shown sufficient indication that she's not simply going to hurt people and keep throwing them under busses when it suits her, and on the balance of things she's probably more likely to get someone innocent killed in future than not. She's also most likely quite literally a spook, like, far beyond 'incidental corporate espionage when the opportunity presents itself' - level given how she's able to come up with a way to construct forensic indicators in order to fake the cause of someone's death within minutes of having their brains blown out all over her and while shatteringly high. You're right. There should be an option to shoot her on the spot. this is a joke but i do think rendition is probably not an appropriate answer and the loving moralintern is not the authority that should be making that arbitrary judgement, especially on those grounds worm girl fucked around with this message at 05:50 on May 26, 2022 |
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May 26, 2022 04:48
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worm girl posted:You're right. There should be an option to shoot her on the spot. The ideal outcome would be humane incarceration, the moral quandary arises when reality rears its head and makes it a choice between letting a person go who will likely do more bad things, and dealing with the fact that you might not be able to stop them from doing so without a third party, against your wishes, killing them when all you want to do is keep them from harming others.
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May 26, 2022 10:25
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I always let Klassje go and afterwards, I always feel like I'm doing a huge mistake that will eventually bite Harry in the rear end big time. Then in next playthrough, I let her go again.
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May 26, 2022 11:16
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Harry deserves redemption where Klaasje does not because spies are ontologically more evil than cops. Simple.
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May 26, 2022 11:31
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Breetai posted:The ideal outcome would be humane incarceration, the moral quandary arises when reality rears its head and makes it a choice between letting a person go who will likely do more bad things, and dealing with the fact that you might not be able to stop them from doing so without a third party, against your wishes, killing them when all you want to do is keep them from harming others. Asking a group of consenting adults to commit an essentially victimless crime (I guess it's disrespectful to the Krenel death squad, but putting that aside) doesn't really warrant extrajudical execution no matter how badly it goes, and neither does lying to a cop to save your own life. Making a lifelong habit of lying, cheating, and stealing still doesn't make it OK for a police officer with extremely limited information to decide to send you to be killed. I don't really think the death penalty is super great IRL but at least when they put down a serial killer or something there's an argument that it had to be done, also there's habeas corpus and due process, and probably not torture. Serial killers get to write letters and look out the window and drink toilet wine. Anyway it's not like the ghouls hunting her down are looking for justice for her spy poo poo. They're the people that had her do it! They are just trying to cover their awful tracks, gently caress them. There's literally a game over screen where they disappear you for finding the source of the apocalypse, possibly because they're using it to read the future instead of trying to fix it. worm girl fucked around with this message at 11:49 on May 26, 2022 |
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May 26, 2022 11:39
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Breetai posted:All klassje does is hurt people and cover for herself. And I'm not sure that feeling bad for the rapacious war criminal she'd been loving to the point where she calls the cops to report his death is exactly a huge argument in her favour. Except at this point people have given numerous examples of her doing other things. Maybe those things aren't enough to compensate, but you can't just pretend that's all there is to her
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May 26, 2022 11:45
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worm girl posted:Asking a group of consenting adults to commit an essentially victimless crime (I guess it's disrespectful to the Krenel death squad, but putting that aside) doesn't really warrant extrajudical execution no matter how badly it goes, and neither does lying to a cop to save your own life. Making a lifelong habit of lying, cheating, and stealing still doesn't make it OK for a police officer with extremely limited information to decide to send you to be killed. I don't really think the death penalty is super great IRL but at least when they put down a serial killer or something there's an argument that it had to be done, also there's habeas corpus and due process, and probably not torture. Serial killers get to write letters and look out the window and drink toilet wine. I'm not advocating extrajudicial execution, but ultimately would rather try to keep her in protective custody (something that's explicitly an option in the game no less) instead of letting her roam free.
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May 26, 2022 11:57
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One interesting thing about arresting her is that is that you can't arrest her for a good reason, even thought good reasons exist. You only know how harmful she is after you already talked to Ruby, when the opportunity has passed. If you arrest her, Harry is doing so for very bastard cop reasons even if the player might act on justification by knowledge from a later play-through. There is a smaller version of this dynamic with Gary. Where you can fine him for littering, possibly motivated by your dislike of his fascism. Which makes Harry into the kind of cop who uses such small crimes to punish people who he dislikes. You later find out that he stole that armor, but you can't change your decision then.
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May 26, 2022 11:59
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VictualSquid posted:One interesting thing about arresting her is that is that you can't arrest her for a good reason, even thought good reasons exist. You only know how harmful she is after you already talked to Ruby, when the opportunity has passed. I'd argue that interfering with a murder investigation and lying directly to the police in respect to it isn't exactly deserving of just a slap on the wrist.
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May 26, 2022 12:10
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Breetai posted:I'd argue that interfering with a murder investigation and lying directly to the police in respect to it isn't exactly deserving of just a slap on the wrist. Yeah but where are you going to find a medal on such short notice.
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May 26, 2022 12:11
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