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selec posted:Enormous Well it was a dumb loving question that needed a simple loving answer. It sure as poo poo ain't going to happen with captain numb nuts over there
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May 27, 2022 19:13
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I think the core problem is that guns are subject to a similar paradox of force that nukes are. You're not gonna eliminate these guns without at least the threat of oppositional force and we're in a really tough, unenviable position if we can't trust the enforcement arm of our state to do so, which given their history would be questionable at best. It's a Pandora's Box that will be a massive struggle to close again.
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May 27, 2022 19:14
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Bishyaler posted:You think this is bad, imagine how cops lie when they're not under intense national scrutiny. Only thing I'm stunned by is that they admitted it. Do we still not know what happened in vegas? Why are police so scared about this. Don't they need all that gear to be heroes?
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May 27, 2022 19:15
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BonoMan posted:Well it was a dumb loving question that needed a simple loving answer. It wasn't a dumb question, I was attempting to lead you to the realization that you will never pass gun control before Democrats lose congress in the midterms and the GOP, having shredded voting rights at the state level, begin their permanent control of government.
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May 27, 2022 19:16
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Bishyaler posted:It wasn't a dumb question, I was attempting to lead you to the realization that you will never pass gun control before Democrats lose congress in the midterms and the GOP, having shredded voting rights at the state level, begin their permanent control of government. Ok then, post-revolution gun control.
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May 27, 2022 19:19
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CYBEReris posted:I think the core problem is that guns are subject to a similar paradox of force that nukes are. You're not gonna eliminate these guns without at least the threat of oppositional force and we're in a really tough, unenviable position if we can't trust the enforcement arm of our state to do so, which given their history would be questionable at best. It's a Pandora's Box that will be a massive struggle to close again. This why I think going lateral on tearing down the state or forcing it to submit on other essentials is the only way through. I don’t want to get into a fight with gun owners, who have a personal stake in fighting me, as petty and dumb as that stake seems to me/us. If I can get the state to provide the kind of support the shooter needed for years before this happened I can get to a place where maybe gun ownership seems less vital? I just don’t see an effective way to claw back all the guns out there when you’d be fighting an entrenched corporate interest with years more experience than you, plus all the gun owners of all political stripes. Nobody has a hobby of defending medical billing practices; the right of insurance companies to gouge us isn’t written into the constitution, but the material and spiritual poverty in this country could be addressed and do major work to relieve the causes of gun violence, especially suicides.
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May 27, 2022 19:20
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Bishyaler posted:It wasn't a dumb question, I was attempting to lead you to the realization that you will never pass gun control before Democrats lose congress in the midterms and the GOP, having shredded voting rights at the state level, begin their permanent control of government. Yes, but the answer remains: More guns are NOT going to improve our safety and there's still no proof that Good Guy With A Gun solves any of these issues. It will only certainly make it worse. Apt example: https://twitter.com/Tina_Ry_7/status/1530241026413080576?s=20&t=s7GucF7qqOPQb8ofzGML1g CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 19:23 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 19:20
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FishBulbia posted:Only thing I'm stunned by is that they admitted it. The police are used to hurting people for money, or threatening to hurt them. They may deliver the pain indirectly by using state means to fine or imprison, or they may do it directly by shooting children in parks or kneeling on the throats of disabled people. The gear makes it easier for them to threaten people, which is why it's so important for them to have it. It's more like a status symbol or plumage than anything else. If you look into the statistics of Line of Duty deaths, the picture is pretty clear. Most of them die from heart attacks or car accidents, so the simplest and best solution to exist as a police officer is to do nothing, and when asked to do something, do it as aggressively and demonstrably violently as possible so that people don't ask you to do other things. The cops involved here were just using standard operating protocol: do nothing, and yell at people that are nearby. Why wouldn't they admit it?
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May 27, 2022 19:22
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Bishyaler posted:I would argue that was less the imagery on the packaging and more a combination of the health effects, long term use making you less attractive, and societal opinion on everything smelling like stale cigarettes. And the mental image of cigarettes causing all those things is because of the advertising push to get people to stop using them. You think cigarettes are gross because you spent your entire childhood being told they are going to give you cancer and make you look like you're a thousand years old.
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May 27, 2022 19:24
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CommieGIR posted:Yes, but the answer remains: More guns are NOT going to improve our safety and there's still no proof that Good Guy With A Gun solves any of these issues. It will only certainly make it worse. I’m sure all the attendees there are yelling vehemently about this obvious trampling of their second amendment rights. Right?
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May 27, 2022 19:26
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CommieGIR posted:Yes, but the answer remains: More guns are NOT going to improve our safety and there's still no proof that Good Guy With A Gun solves any of these issues. It will only certainly make it worse. Why is more guns in the hands of civilians not the answer but the Democratic apparatus seems to believe the answer is more guns in the hands of more cops?
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May 27, 2022 19:26
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Bishyaler posted:Why is more guns in the hands of civilians not the answer but the Democratic apparatus seems to believe the answer is more guns in the hands of more cops? I think cops should be fully disarmed other than special units. Just so we're clear on where I stand versus the Democrats. But again: Your solution is a non-starter.
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May 27, 2022 19:28
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Bishyaler posted:Why is more guns in the hands of civilians not the answer but the Democratic apparatus seems to believe the answer is more guns in the hands of more cops? I don't really think it matters what the democratic apparatus seems to believe when looking for "the answer" in regards to any question, tbh
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May 27, 2022 19:28
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A big flaming stink posted:https://twitter.com/DuddingChris/status/1530233969429598208?t=U5bIcilTOR16vQcyeyLbSw&s=19 Even freepers are upset about the cops' actions there. This sure would've been a good time for Schumer to call off the Senate's vacation & at least grandstand in front of the cameras. davecrazy posted:How has the FBI not taken over this investigation from the obviously incompetent and compromised local yokels. Does anyone know the answer to this?
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May 27, 2022 19:29
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Bishyaler posted:Why is more guns in the hands of civilians not the answer but the Democratic apparatus seems to believe the answer is more guns in the hands of more cops? They're very stupid and well protected from that stupidity.
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May 27, 2022 19:33
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Bishyaler posted:Why is more guns in the hands of civilians not the answer but the Democratic apparatus seems to believe the answer is more guns in the hands of more cops? You're equivocating the likelihood of a gun ban passing to universal gun ownership. The former is unlikely to stop gun crime because there was a a lack of will for it to occur. The latter is unlikely to stop gun crime because if it does occur it will increase gun crime. Every single piece of gun control that has been revoked has preceded increased gun violence.
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May 27, 2022 19:36
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Bishyaler posted:Why is more guns in the hands of civilians not the answer but the Democratic apparatus seems to believe the answer is more guns in the hands of more cops? Thank you for defending the rights of child killers.
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May 27, 2022 19:38
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Bishyaler posted:Why is more guns in the hands of civilians not the answer but the Democratic apparatus seems to believe the answer is more guns in the hands of more cops? Why is "more guns equals more deaths and we prove this with reality and statistics" not the answer but you seem to believe the answer is more guns in the hands of more people?
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May 27, 2022 19:39
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CommieGIR posted:I think cops should be fully disarmed other than special units. Just so we're clear on where I stand versus the Democrats. That's pretty much the issue though isn't it? There's nothing close to a solution that can get enacted through our current government. Bishyaler just seems to be stuck in nearly the opposite of the typical CE discussion where starry eyed leftists dream of a better world that serious, realistic posters have to drag them back to earth on. Like yeah of course getting rid of the guns would be how a sensible government reacts to these massacres, just like universal health care would be. But, without utterly titanic systemic change to this country, that's never ever happening, so you're stuck implementing comically inept measures that will accomplish nothing positive, shorthanded to shrugging and going "good guy with a gun?".
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May 27, 2022 19:46
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Kalli posted:That's pretty much the issue though isn't it? There's nothing close to a solution that can get enacted through our current government. Bishyaler just seems to be stuck in nearly the opposite of the typical CE discussion where starry eyed leftists dream of a better world that serious, realistic posters have to drag them back to earth on. Except its quite literally reading the evidence and saying "All these statistics about how more firearms for self-defense directly leads to increased firearms violence are wrong, they just don't understand how a good guy with a gun can solve these issues" It will make no one safer and is the direct opposite direction.
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May 27, 2022 19:49
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Don't worry, folks, the GOP has found the real solution! https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1529817124256026624 Whether gun control is part of that solution remains to be seen. https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1529281988158541825 But when it comes down to it, I don't think there's any one single thing that can be done to solve mass violence. It needs to be a mix of measures attacking the problem from all angles, but for ideological reasons, a lot of people focus on just one or two specific approaches while ruling out others.
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May 27, 2022 19:52
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CommieGIR posted:Except its quite literally reading the evidence and saying "All these statistics about how more firearms for self-defense directly leads to increased firearms violence are wrong, they just don't understand how a good guy with a gun can solve these issues" I agree with the statistics, I just don’t think any amount of work short of house-to-house gun raids will achieve what is needed, and still wouldn’t stop mass violence because non of the underlying causes would be fixed. If every gun in the world disappeared, we’d see people ramming cars into farmer’s markets or other accessible groups of pedestrians. This isn’t to say wanting to get rid of guns is futile, or dumb; but believing it can be done under the current political order is absurd. The problem is the system, the guns are a symptom of and accessory to that system. You have to fight a fully integrated vertical, from legislator to manufacturer to consumer, all of whom have had a good fifty years of preparation and planning for this very fight.
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May 27, 2022 19:57
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The Sean posted:Why is "more guns equals more deaths and we prove this with reality and statistics" not the answer but you seem to believe the answer is more guns in the hands of more people? If more guns directly translated directly into more deaths, we should have the most gun deaths of any country on earth not actively engaged in war. But we aren't, Brazil leads us in total gun deaths. We aren't even in the top 10 of rates of violent gun death per 100k residents. We are 2nd in gun suicide but that's a mental health issue far more than a gun issue.
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May 27, 2022 19:57
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Main Paineframe posted:Don't worry, folks, the GOP has found the real solution! from what I understood of that it seemed like he was proposing a very authoritarian social media monitoring system?
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May 27, 2022 19:58
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Bishyaler posted:We are 2nd in gun suicide but that's a mental health issue far more than a gun issue. This is completely wrong. Having a gun in the house makes suicide rates rise dramatically. https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-ownership-associated-with-much-higher-suicide-risk.html quote:“Our findings confirm what virtually every study that has investigated this question over the last 30 years has concluded: Ready access to a gun is a major risk factor for suicide,”
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May 27, 2022 20:05
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Arist posted:This is completely wrong. Having a gun in the house makes suicide rates rise dramatically. Are you implying that the presence of a gun makes people depressed? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 27, 2022 20:06
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Bishyaler posted:Are you implying that the presence of a gun makes people depressed? I'm saying suicide is an incredibly impulsive decision most of the time, and you're arguing nonsense out of a refusal to consider that guns may actually be bad in and of themselves.
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May 27, 2022 20:09
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Bishyaler posted:Are you implying that the presence of a gun makes people depressed? That isn't even remotely what the study or the post says. Its about ease of access to firearms makes people who become depressed more likely to commit to it rather than having second thoughts.
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May 27, 2022 20:11
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Bishyaler posted:Are you implying that the presence of a gun makes people depressed? Arist is showing a clear cause and effect here; if you don't have an actual rebuttal then don't misrepresent their position. It's provable fact that a firearm in the home increases the risk of suicide because it's extremely easy to kill yourself with a gun. v Another mod can hit me with a sixer for this or something but I just have to point out that the post below mine is one of the most gobstoppingly, agonizingly stupid things I've read in the 15 years I've been on this site god drat v Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 20:14 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 20:12
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Arist posted:I'm saying suicide is an incredibly impulsive decision most of the time, and you're arguing nonsense out of a refusal to consider that guns may actually be bad in and of themselves. Blaming guns for suicide is like blaming cars for DUI crashes. You're arguing nonsense out of a desire to demonize a tool.
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May 27, 2022 20:12
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Bishyaler posted:Blaming guns for suicide is like blaming cars for DUI crashes. You're arguing nonsense out of a desire to demonize a tool. Wait, I think I know what's going on here Are YOU a gun?
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May 27, 2022 20:13
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Professor Beetus posted:Arist is showing a clear cause and effect here; if you don't have an actual rebuttal then don't misrepresent their position. It's provable fact that a firearm in the home increases the risk of suicide because it's extremely easy to kill yourself with a gun. Just because a tool is extremely useful for a task doesn't mean it causes the task to happen. jesus christ.
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May 27, 2022 20:14
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CommieGIR posted:Except its quite literally reading the evidence and saying "All these statistics about how more firearms for self-defense directly leads to increased firearms violence are wrong, they just don't understand how a good guy with a gun can solve these issues" I agree, but twisting yourself into a pretzel to say, hey maybe I should own guns is about all there is to do do. Liberals and some leftists think that's stupid, Conservatives and some leftists cling to it. I just find the reversal of roles in the discussion funny I suppose. At least it's better then the old gun-hugger posting D&D used to have.
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May 27, 2022 20:14
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Bishyaler posted:If more guns directly translated directly into more deaths, we should have the most gun deaths of any country on earth not actively engaged in war. But we aren't, Brazil leads us in total gun deaths. We aren't even in the top 10 of rates of violent gun death per 100k residents. We are 2nd in gun suicide but that's a mental health issue far more than a gun issue. Why are you trying to compare different countries? It's obvious The Sean was talking about the number of guns in the same country....
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May 27, 2022 20:16
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Bishyaler posted:Just because a tool is extremely useful for a task doesn't mean it causes the task to happen. jesus christ. In the case of a successful suicide, it absolutely does. Without access to a gun, people will tend to otherwise attempt suicide in a manner that has a lower likelihood of being successful. The gun changes that to a situation where they make the attempt, on average, more successfully. It doesn't cause people to become more suicidal, but it causes people to be more successful when they attempt suicide. In this case, easy access to a gun is a direct contributor.
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May 27, 2022 20:16
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Bishyaler posted:Just because a tool is extremely useful for a task doesn't mean it causes the task to happen. jesus christ. When the 'task' is 'killing people' then maybe we should try to have less of those tools in circulation, you loving moron. Maybe I shouldn't be posting like this with my mod star but a close relative killed themselves with a handgun a year and a half ago and I guarantee you if he hadn't had access to a firearm he would still be alive today. So quite frankly, go gently caress yourself you gun humping dipshit.
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May 27, 2022 20:16
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Bishyaler posted:Just because a tool is extremely useful for a task doesn't mean it causes the task to happen. jesus christ. No it just makes it far more effective and efficient. Same reason why auto-dialers make scamming so easy, guns make committing suicide trivially easy when most other methods require so much setup, knowledge or ability that attempts fail at a far higher rate, because shockingly, people who are trying to commit suicide are typically in a terrible state of mind that you can escape from if it takes more time then click.
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May 27, 2022 20:17
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Lemming posted:In the case of a successful suicide, it absolutely does. Without access to a gun, people will tend to otherwise attempt suicide in a manner that has a lower likelihood of being successful. The gun changes that to a situation where they make the attempt, on average, more successfully. It doesn't cause people to become more suicidal, but it causes people to be more successful when they attempt suicide. In this case, easy access to a gun is a direct contributor. If you had to guess which has a shorter, less violent route to success, would it national health care that includes thorough mental health support, or somehow getting back all the handguns?
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May 27, 2022 20:17
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Yeah, not having a gun in the house at least means a suicidal person doesn't have a suicide dispenser in their house. It makes the process a touch harder than pressing button exit brains.
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May 27, 2022 20:17
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Bishyaler posted:If more guns directly translated directly into more deaths, we should have the most gun deaths of any country on earth not actively engaged in war. But we aren't, Brazil leads us in total gun deaths. We aren't even in the top 10 of rates of violent gun death per 100k residents. We are 2nd in gun suicide but that's a mental health issue far more than a gun issue. Your rhetoric is embarrassing. This is not how critical thinking works. Another country having higher amounts of gun caused deaths (the only other one btw so great argument) does not mean that correlation of more guns = more deaths is false. I can't believe that is your best argument. This is like when gun nuts bring up "but Chicago!" to defend not having gun laws. You know what's really cool about you bringing up Brazil? That you self-owned and proved my, and other's, argument in doing so. Brazil: Relaxed gun laws could lead to more violence https://www.dw.com/en/brazil-relaxed-gun-laws-could-lead-to-more-violence/a-56529162 quote:Jair Bolsonaro pledged to relax Brazil's gun laws during his election campaign. The idea was that citizens could fight the rampant crime and violence in the country with their own weapons. Since being elected president, he has issued several decrees to make good on his promise. It is now much easier to buy and carry firearms in Brazil. Association between firearms and mortality in Brazil, 1990 to 2017: a global burden of disease Brazil study https://pophealthmetrics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12963-020-00222-3 quote:The group of Brazilian federation units with the highest firearm collection rate (that is, having citizens turn in their guns) (median = 7.5) showed reductions in the rate of total violent deaths by firearms. In contrast, the group with the lowest firearm collection rate (so, citizens have more guns) (median = 2.0) showed an increase in firearm deaths from 2000 to 2017. I hope that the above links help others in arguing against this elsewhere. It is likely that "but Brazil!" will be used for years to come. The Sean fucked around with this message at 20:20 on May 27, 2022 |
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May 27, 2022 20:18
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