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Restaurants in the current British and American conception run off of labor exploitation on a more blatant level than most other sectors, and generally work as class filters to give the most entitled petit bourgeois fucks in the world temporary dominion over precarious workers. Everyone who has ever made a server cry in the walk in fridge should be shot and their earthly remains transferred to one of those kebab places run by two brothers of indeterminate Levantine origin. e: Alexander of Constantinople was born in 244CE and attempted to settle a long standing heresy regarding where kebabs come from. Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 11:12 on May 30, 2022 |
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May 30, 2022 11:08
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Strom Cuzewon posted:What's the anarchist objection to restaurants? Sure the modern capitalist approach to them is objectively awful, but what's wrong with a hippy co-op where you can get some food and have a community? The argument on social media seems to be semantic. "What is a restaurant?" type bollocks. I'm sure LibCom would argue this isn't the case but it is and it's super dull. None the less, a dumb social media argument seems a strange reason to sever from the broader movement. And it's not like any other political movement doesn't have its shares of pedants and roasters
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May 30, 2022 11:13
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keep punching joe posted:There was some deranged discourse from Tumblr communists recently about how restaurants are intrinsically a bourgeois evil as workers are exploited and on poverty wages, therefore restaurants should be abolished outright and people should just learn to cook for themselves (rather than unionise/reform wages and conditions). Which is interesting because the 1920s Soviet line was restaurants should be established easily available for everyone so women didn't have to labour at home to put food on the table.
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May 30, 2022 11:22
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It’s a bit of a straw that broke the camel’s back thing. I’m still all for anarchism the concept, just my exposure to anarchists the people has been mixed at best. Online it’s mostly extremely annoying people arguing about dumbass poo poo like whether it’s imperialist to have a shower every now and then, and in real life it’s a mix of nice fun people with some odd ideas about how you might go about communicating ideas to the public, and people who think schools are essentially the same as prisons. I’m not sure sure if my conception of anarchism differs from many tho - I’d happily do a shift or two a week at a nice restaurant with people I liked if it meant I could still go eat fancy bullshit brought to my table every now and then. Not everyone wants to eat a communal loving stew.
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May 30, 2022 11:30
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Most of that is just people being people though. Anarchism by encouraging everyone to have an input just shows more of it at the surface than many other forms of organization. It's annoying at times, but I'll take it over any ideology where only Frank Furedi or Wes Streeting's hot brainthoughts get given air and everyone who wants to play has to pretend that they're works of genius.feedmegin posted:Which is interesting because the 1920s Soviet line was restaurants should be established easily available for everyone so women didn't have to labour at home to put food on the table. 
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May 30, 2022 11:38
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His Divine Shadow posted:I'll buy that for a farthing! Found an excellent thread on Twitter regarding historical metric hate and how it's tied to nationalism (including a truly amazing anti-metric anthem from the 19th century involving the lines "Let every Saxon sing / A pint's a pound the world round / Till all the earth shall ring") https://twitter.com/jjvincent/status/1530901940623880192
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May 30, 2022 11:51
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Jakabite posted:It’s a bit of a straw that broke the camel’s back thing. I’m still all for anarchism the concept, just my exposure to anarchists the people has been mixed at best. Online it’s mostly extremely annoying people arguing about dumbass poo poo like whether it’s imperialist to have a shower every now and then, and in real life it’s a mix of nice fun people with some odd ideas about how you might go about communicating ideas to the public, and people who think schools are essentially the same as prisons. The strength of anarchism is also its weakness. People. The great thing about anarchism is that if you and some friends want to open a communal eating space and some of what you serve is based on your classical training then fire away. Is that still a restaurant? This is why I said the twitter thing was a semantic argument, ultimately about "what is a restaurant?" and most people don't actually give a poo poo about that. My eyes glaze over. The end result is the same, the way you get there is very different. And when you argue semantics when others are talking about practicalities you usually end up sounding like a loon who can't see the forest for the trees. Semantics have their place but it's in a philosophy textbook or lecture hall. Libcom broke me when he compared restaurants to private gyms. And just nah mate. Nah. So long as it is organised horizontally where the person serving food is treated no worse than the person making it, gently caress is the problem? At the same time, communal food doesn't have to mean slop. Look at the food that you get at a Gurdwara for example
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May 30, 2022 11:59
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forkboy84 posted:The strength of anarchism is also its weakness. People. Yeah, you're basically dead right. I think I've just found a political idea I quite like, but I don't at all jam with the culture of it, which is weird when the whole point is anyone can make whatever sort of (non-oppressive) culture they like around something. Basically, if more people like me were anarchists I'd have a good time. If I had to live in an anarchist world with all the anarchists I know at the moment I'd probably not be very happy to say the least.
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May 30, 2022 12:08
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If you want good, thoughtful anarchists on twitter I don't mind @anarchonbury and @thoughtslime although they don't primarily post about anarchism.
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May 30, 2022 12:34
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Not that I’m ‘in’ any of this, being the antisocial weirdo I am, but I wouldn’t think the twitter anarchist community strongly reflects any real-world anarchist groups. I mean if you’re going by ‘most influential twitter user who calls themselves an anarchist’ it’s probably loving Vaush and lol, lmao.
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May 30, 2022 12:35
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Does Vaush call himself an anarchist, I thought he was just a standard US Democrat.
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May 30, 2022 12:37
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Bobby Deluxe posted:If you want good, thoughtful anarchists on twitter I don't mind @anarchonbury and @thoughtslime although they don't primarily post about anarchism. Thanks! I'm not actually that bothered about anarchism itself. I always saw any political ideology as a means to and end - that end being to have everyone's basic needs met with minimal labour and stress, and to then also have as much pleasure as possible. That's about it. If something does that better I'd be after that in a heartbeat.
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May 30, 2022 12:41
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Jakabite posted:It’s a bit of a straw that broke the camel’s back thing. I’m still all for anarchism the concept, just my exposure to anarchists the people has been mixed at best. Online it’s mostly extremely annoying people arguing about dumbass poo poo like whether it’s imperialist to have a shower every now and then, and in real life it’s a mix of nice fun people with some odd ideas about how you might go about communicating ideas to the public, and people who think schools are essentially the same as prisons. Imperialists have baths. 
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May 30, 2022 12:42
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I could never be an anarchist because I can't shake the feeling that anarchists would end up slowly reinventing the State in much the same way libertarians slowly reinvent things like "financial controls"
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May 30, 2022 12:42
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keep punching joe posted:Does Vaush call himself an anarchist, I thought he was just a standard US Democrat. He does a lot of "democrats are better than the alternative" that occasionally (often?) veers into endorsing American imperialism.
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May 30, 2022 12:45
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His position is that the Democrats occupy seats that would otherwise be occupied by frothing fascists, and while that's better than the alternative, it's only buying time to get real organising done.
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May 30, 2022 12:50
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:I could never be an anarchist because I can't shake the feeling that anarchists would end up slowly reinventing the State in much the same way libertarians slowly reinvent things like "financial controls"
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May 30, 2022 12:58
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Sorry that social media revealed the colossal holes in anarchism.
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May 30, 2022 13:01
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Guavanaut posted:If they reinvent the state but with actual democratic buy in from the masses and protections against regulatory capture and hereditary domination then I'll take it over what we currently have. I mean yes, this would be the ideal.
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May 30, 2022 13:07
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I have no idea who Vaush is and the more I hear the less I want to know. Jakabite posted:Thanks! I'm not actually that bothered about anarchism itself. I always saw any political ideology as a means to and end - that end being to have everyone's basic needs met with minimal labour and stress, and to then also have as much pleasure as possible. That's about it. If something does that better I'd be after that in a heartbeat. The difficulty comes I guess when you get into the weeds of what you see as progressing things towards that ideal. Like you say, some other anarchists view schools as no better than prisons, so even a left leaning government reforming schools to be less authoritarian and more progressive would be argued to be a waste of time because schools themselves are inherently bad. To me, there's a lot of idealism vs practicality to it. Yes, in an ideal world we wouldn't need schools. We wouldn't need cops. But right now we have those things, they're embedded like ticks, so if the smallest thing we can do is reform them then that's what we do. The difference is you don't reform a little, and pretend that'll fix everything like Keith and Wes! are. But if your house is on fire, you don't sit there arguing about the chemicals in the extinguisher being bad for the endvironment. https://twitter.com/Lubchansky/status/1521127115734716416?t=YUG8GSmyPuEouFLG5NvUbA&s=19
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May 30, 2022 13:18
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Yeah, since at least the 18th century there's been threads of utopian political thought that claim that there's some kind of end goal or final battle or tribulation or something and then the lion lays down with the lamb and we live in an earthly paradise, and there have been the more practical anarchists who have said that's a bunch of hogwash that amounts to millenarianism in secular clothing and what we must focus on are the things that we can do something about today. To follow the advice of those practical anarchists often means that you have to work with the utopian dreamers and the people who think that florists are a form of imperialism or whatever, but it's still better than not doing it or ignoring it.
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May 30, 2022 14:07
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Jakabite posted:Thanks! I'm not actually that bothered about anarchism itself. I always saw any political ideology as a means to and end - that end being to have everyone's basic needs met with minimal labour and stress, and to then also have as much pleasure as possible. That's about it. If something does that better I'd be after that in a heartbeat. I would suggest that if you like anarchism but don't like other anarchists you should haul off and declare your own anarchism to be very different from and not associated with them, which IMO is extremely anarchist. Also IMO schools are extremely bad, mine nearly killed me and all I got out of it was useless qualifications that mean nothing and only exist because education is a commodity. If anything I think it was actively obstructive to me doing anything useful or worthwhile with my life. Have not yet been to prison so cannot confirm whether or not prison is comparable, but school definitely very bad. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 14:33 on May 30, 2022 |
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May 30, 2022 14:31
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keep punching joe posted:Does Vaush call himself an anarchist, I thought he was just a standard US Democrat. He calls himself an Anarchist and spouts the rhetoric, but everything he actually does and makes arguments about marks him as a colonialist Liberal.
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May 30, 2022 14:32
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Most of the time I see his name come up it's older / more experienced trans folks trying to warn younger trans that he's the engagement version of a chaser and if you scratch off the trans positive veneer you'll find a very dangerous layer of bigotry underneath.
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May 30, 2022 15:15
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Is he the weird debate bro who came out with "actually the jews disproportionately controlled the banks during the weimar republic so what the nazis did was self defence"
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May 30, 2022 15:19
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OwlFancier posted:Is he the weird debate bro who came out with "actually the jews disproportionately controlled the banks during the weimar republic so what the nazis did was self defence" He is the one you were thinking of, but that's not what happened. What happened in that conversation was that he asked the tankie he was talking to to explain, in his own words, why what the Nazis did was bad. The tankie said "because they had a false consciousness", which was just his fancy way of saying "they were incorrect on the facts" because tankies don't know what words mean. Vaush then said "But Jews were overrepresented in the financial industry." at which point the tankie cut the line. Vaush's position, which he was about to argue if he hadn't been cut off and stated anyway immediately afterwards, is that arguing the facts in that case is ineffective and dangerous, because it logically implies that if the facts had gone the other way, you'd be ok with the Nazi genocide. It doesn't matter whether they did or didn't have disproportionate influence over the banks, because a person with a strong moral position can confidently say that even if they did, what happened would have been wrong. tl;dr: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owI7DOeO_yg&t=96s
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May 30, 2022 15:26
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keep punching joe posted:Does Vaush call himself an anarchist, I thought he was just a standard US Democrat. This is most anarchists on Twitter in my experience.
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May 30, 2022 15:26
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In that case they probably think that restaurants are a unique axis of oppression because their starter was late.
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May 30, 2022 15:28
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Dabir posted:He is the one you were thinking of, but that's not what happened. False Consciousness doesn't just mean "incorrect on the facts", you even show this by bringing up how the Nazis used correct statements to justify their awful bigotry and solutions The whole point is that the ruling class will willfully misrepresent the truth or come up with false solutions to actual problems. Immigration causing pressure on housing and amenities because you've not been spending money on it? Just blame immigrants themselves and vote for Brexit.
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May 30, 2022 15:30
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Not So Fast posted:False Consciousness doesn't just mean "incorrect on the facts", you even show this by bringing up how the Nazis used correct statements to justify their awful bigotry and solutions I know that it doesn't just mean that, but that's how the tankie was using the term throughout the lengthy conversation beforehand and in other videos afterwards. Again, he was using fancy words to make himself sound smart because he doesn't know what words mean.
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May 30, 2022 15:32
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Dabir posted:I know that it doesn't just mean that, but that's how the tankie was using the term throughout the lengthy conversation beforehand and in other videos afterwards. Again, he was using fancy words to make himself sound smart because he doesn't know what words mean. Vaush is an idiot with history of edgy sexism and transphobia. He doesn't know how Marxism works because it would threaten the anarcho-Bidenist grift he's built up.
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May 30, 2022 15:34
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Not So Fast posted:Vaush is an idiot with history of edgy sexism and transphobia. He doesn't know howt Marxism works because it would threaten the anarcho-Bidenist grift he's built up. ok
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May 30, 2022 15:35
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Dabir posted:He is the one you were thinking of, but that's not what happened. Unless you are a pacifist then I think the fundamental argument is that it is wrong because, it's like, factually wrong. Like that's what separates racism from hating, I dunno, tories or something. Or killing random people vs killing someone in self defence, one of them is not justifiable because it just... wrong? Like factually incorrect, there is no way to justify one of them whereas the other can be because of things that actually happened? You can extrapolate that further to "all concepts of innate racial qualities that define how people behave are factually wrong and thus thinking that way is a bad way to think because it consistently leads people to perform actions which do nothing except harm other people", which I would because that's correct, but it's still fundamentally based in the idea that racism is factually wrong, both specifically and generally. Believing otherwise is just magical thinking, basically. It is imagining the world to be a way that you would like it to be because if it was that way it would mean that your simplistic understanding of it would be correct. I don't really see what other basis would form the objection? That seems to be the most important one? That's just not how the world, people, reality, anything at all works. That's the foundation of the concept of right and wrong isn't it? How the world actually is, what actually happens in it? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 15:42 on May 30, 2022 |
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May 30, 2022 15:38
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We can argue that if you want, but my point is that Vaush did not say "The Jews controlled the banks so the Nazis were right." That's a huge misrepresentation and I'd consider it a knock against the trustworthiness of wherever you heard that.
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May 30, 2022 15:43
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I saw a clip of him saying it somewhere, that is basically the only exposure I had to him because debate perverts are awful.
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May 30, 2022 15:44
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Almost like you shouldn't trust what you see in edited clips huh
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May 30, 2022 15:46
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No I think if someone had tried that argument with me I would definitely also have just stopped talking to them. Seems like standard debate stupidity where the substance of the argument is irrelevant and it's entirely about the performance, which naturally favours edgelord rubbish.
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May 30, 2022 15:47
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OwlFancier posted:I saw a clip of him saying it somewhere, that is basically the only exposure I had to him because debate perverts are awful. This is it isn't it? Debate perverts loving suck
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May 30, 2022 15:49
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For anyone even willing to experience it, here's the argument timestamped with dead air edited out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z3MqJakNbI&t=2114s The guy was right to leave because you do not, ever, entertain these lines of argument with validity.
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May 30, 2022 15:56
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I think there's a reasonable argument that "debate culture" shouldn't be surrendered entirely to the right-wing. But that doesn't mean I have to watch that poo poo.
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May 30, 2022 16:08
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