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CmdrRiker posted:Saying "median means half of the workers are being paid more" is a really hosed up and invalidating line of reasoning so I'm just going to assume you mean the graph is positively skewed because the mean happens to be greater than the median. Sorry, can you be a little more specific? What's "hosed up and invalidating" here? That's literally the definition of "median wage". The median is the point where half the set is lower and half the set is higher. So when applied to wage data, the median wage is the point at which half the people are making less than that and half the people are making more. BetterToRuleInHell posted:I get what Paineframe is saying about nuance but personally it feels to me, and forgive the crude analogy, like a men's rights activist arguing about the stats behind false rape accusations while discussing rape accusations. BetterToRuleInHell posted:Yeah, im trying to get the right word out but I'm drawing a blank.  I did not, at any point, say that gas prices were not too high. And even if I did, it would still be completely loving wild and inappropriate to compare that to arguing that rape victims are dishonest liars
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Jun 5, 2022 23:30
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Paineframe has an uncanny ability to come across incredibly dismissive in favor for being focused on "the facts". Which that is all well and good, as I love me some cold hard facts, but remember that politics are still about people. That is why you may be rubbing people the wrong way a tad from time to time.
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Jun 5, 2022 23:36
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no one is doing politics in this thread
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Jun 5, 2022 23:37
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Not accusing you of that regarding gas prices, Paine, it's just a example of how I would see your information would get lost in the larger, more easily digestible noise.
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Jun 5, 2022 23:40
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Main Paineframe posted:Sorry, can you be a little more specific? What's "hosed up and invalidating" here? That's literally the definition of "median wage". The way you put it sounded like, "It's the median which means half of the people are above that and who gives a gently caress about the lower half. That's what median means, people. MIDDLE. PEOPLE ARE ALSO ABOVE MIDDLE. NUANCE." Your larger point still stands though. I have nothing left that is clever or smug enough to continue commenting on it.
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Jun 5, 2022 23:42
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Many statements sound very bad if you just insert an "who gives a gently caress about the lower half" into them that was not originally there.
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Jun 5, 2022 23:46
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Many statements sound very bad if you just insert an "who gives a gently caress about the lower half" into them that was not originally there. Or when the statements follow posts pointing out that the well-to-do are generally voting Democrat these days, which posts were originally there.
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Jun 5, 2022 23:48
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Many statements sound very bad if you just insert an "who gives a gently caress about the lower half" into them that was not originally there. I have to explicitly include it because if I don't plenty of people, such as yourself, still don't understand why quote:And of course, "median" means that half of workers are being paid more than that. In fact, according to BLS data, the median hourly wage across all occupations in May 2021 was 22 dollars an hour - over triple the minimum wage! still come across like it's arguing the wrong thing here on a technicality.
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Jun 5, 2022 23:51
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The argument being made was strictly about the assertion that "most people make low/minimum wage", not "who gives a gently caress about the lower half." Does the median $22/hr count as a low wage is an entirely good related question. Where I live $22/hr at a company that gives you 40 hours/week regularly is broadly considered a pretty good paying job, but I also live in an area where a lot of people aren't making ends meet. If you live in a huge metro area, yeah that's going to really suck to live on. at literally zero point was anyone moralizing about gently caress the lower half Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Jun 6, 2022 |
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Jun 6, 2022 00:05
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Herstory Begins Now posted:The argument being made was strictly about the assertion that "most people make low/minimum wage", not "who gives a gently caress about the lower half." Does the median $22/hr count as a low wage is an entirely good related question. Where I live $22/hr at a company that gives you 40 hours/week regularly is broadly considered a pretty good paying job. If you live in a huge metro area, yeah that's going to suck to live on. Well, then pardon me for not being explicit, because that was the entire source of my confusion. My interpretation is that $22/hr IS NOT even close to being livable in the US (That should have been minimum wage a decade ago.) in most areas when you consider recent living expenses and housing. Let alone what is forecasted in our near lovely futures. I mean, you've been hearing it for the entire millennial generation. So on top of that making a stupid argument about "and half of people are above that!" is just... WHAT? What are we even arguing about here, again? CmdrRiker fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jun 6, 2022 |
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Jun 6, 2022 00:12
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A 2-2 where I am is about 3,800 a month. 22 dollars an hour is 3520 before taxes. This is because of growth.
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Jun 6, 2022 00:18
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Who the hell is getting reliable full time work at $22/40 hrs in this scenario anyway?
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Jun 6, 2022 00:21
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They can’t even keep the fast food places open because of lack of staffing right now, getting the hours isn’t the hard part here.
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Jun 6, 2022 00:28
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Bar Ran Dun posted:They can’t even keep the fast food places open because of lack of staffing right now, getting the hours isn’t the hard part here. I was saying $22/hr full time jobs. not the $10/hr 8 hours a week grocery/fast food jobs. Of course no one is willing to work those, especially during a plague with no health insurance. A lot of you sound completely out of touch with reality. e: One of the biggest grocery chains in PA/OH/whatever: https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=Giant_Eagle%2C_Inc./Hourly_Rate "Giant Eagle, Inc. pays its employees an average of $11.81 an hour. Hourly pay at Giant Eagle, Inc. ranges from an average of $8.89 to $19.33 an hour. Giant Eagle, Inc. employees with the job title Meat Cutter make the most with an average hourly rate of $13.43, while employees with the title Cashier make the least with an average hourly rate of $9.54." And that's all part time. Barreft fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Jun 6, 2022 |
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Jun 6, 2022 00:33
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Bar Ran Dun posted:They can’t even keep the fast food places open because of lack of staffing right now, getting the hours isn’t the hard part here. eh you and barreft I believe live on literally opposite ends of this. If you're in an area with a job market, wages are probably competitive (at least somewhat, and I mean competitive relative to areas where there are 50 out of work people for every job, which is a lot of dying small towns) and you can get hours, but living expenses are insane because lots of people obviously want to live where there are jobs. In areas with jack poo poo for jobs, $22/hr is something to feel lucky for because there is so little work and even 20 hours a week of that makes you pretty lucky relative to how a lot of people around you are doing. On the plus side, your rent is unthinkably low compared to city rents because almost no one wants to live there. I'm oversimplifying a bit, but most of the country falls on one extreme of that with some amount of suburbs/commuter areas/smaller cities that land a bit more in the middle. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Jun 6, 2022 |
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Jun 6, 2022 00:36
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https://twitter.com/efjbgc/status/1533217028731027456?s=21&t=bS53q1Hd0oINXdfGggsDNg This is just going to get worse.
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Jun 6, 2022 00:37
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Herstory Begins Now posted:eh you and barreft I believe live on literally opposite ends of this. I think so. All the groceries stores here have had hiring tables out basically since the pandemic started. The Arby’s and Burger King are so short staffed they are just closed entirely random days. What Barreft is describing sounds like what my dad is seeing in FL, he’s gone back part time after locking down for the pandemic for almost two years. Before that he has about 50 years in retail grocery in OH and FL.
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Jun 6, 2022 00:52
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I think so. All the groceries stores here have had hiring tables out basically since the pandemic started. The Arby’s and Burger King are so short staffed they are just closed entirely random days. Have you asked what they were paying per hour, by chance? benefits also. and full time? e: I feel like I'm being trolled and I'll just be probed anyway if this escalates, so w/e.
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Jun 6, 2022 00:53
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davecrazy posted:https://twitter.com/efjbgc/status/1533217028731027456?s=21&t=bS53q1Hd0oINXdfGggsDNg The fact that they targeted this club instead of the giant multi-day Pride festival down in Fair Park for maximum trauma tells me that they're huge fuckin' cowards. Like, I went there yesterday with friends and was surprised we didn't have anyone giving us static, probably because the police shut down a block around the Fair Park area.
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Jun 6, 2022 01:01
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I believe Brainard said friday that there are too many good and better paying jobs than the low level jobs. On top of that the number of workers in the usa is dropping because of covid having currently killed or maimed a couple million and usa immigration policies. So the fed needs to crush the job market to get people back into the jobs that actually make this country move.
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Jun 6, 2022 01:03
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Barreft posted:Have you asked what they were paying per hour, by chance? benefits also. and full time? If you are in PA/OH... It’s like a different planet here. I’m far East side Seattle burbs. Yes a full time job with full benefits at 22 is just walk in and sign up. Lower paying fast food might be 18-20 and full time. It’s still utterly unaffordable to live on that. Median household was like 105,000-ish in King last time I checked. That is barely hanging on here with the COL if you have kids. The second you mentioned PA/OH yeah totally believable to me, I’ve got family in Warren, OH and Wheeling, WV. It’s crazy poo poo how different it is, while still managing to suck in both places.
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Jun 6, 2022 02:08
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Bar Ran Dun posted:If you are in PA/OH... If you pay I'll move to Seattle.
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Jun 6, 2022 02:14
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Barreft posted:If you pay I'll move to Seattle. And live where once you get there? Housing market is nuts.
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Jun 6, 2022 03:22
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Willa Rogers posted:
"Biden is rattled by his sinking approval ratings and is looking to regain voters’ confidence" “I don’t know what’s required here,” said Rep. James Clyburn, D-S.C., whose endorsement in the 2020 Democratic primaries helped rescue Biden’s struggling candidacy. “But I do know the poll numbers have been stuck where they are for far too long.” This is ridiculous. They could do something about student loans, weed, guns, anything in those areas. Literally "we've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas!"
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Jun 6, 2022 03:41
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The tone of every idiot quoted in that article is basically something like, "Look, we closed off the watertight compartments after we ran into the iceberg. What else do you expect us to do, radio for help?" Absolutely loving clueless.
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Jun 6, 2022 04:05
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Seph posted:I'm not denying your experiences or those around you. I'm just saying that there are a lot of people in this country who are in a vastly different economic situation than you. As a counter to your example, I live in a rich, coastal city that votes ~80% Democratic every election. Every single person I know is doing very well and is exceptionally better off than they were a few years ago, even accounting for the current inflationary environment. But that doesn't mean that my experience is applicable to everyone in this country. Is your argument that there's a poor underclass who's not serviced by either party and a middle to upper class who are unaware of the lives of that underclass and actually see some of what they want through legislation or lack there of? We have an increasing income gap and I think that's what you're referring to with the idea that not just the uber rich have benefitted from the economy but that's not a good thing. Those are the sort of conditions that have historically led to ugly situations.
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Jun 6, 2022 04:19
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Seph posted:I'm not denying your experiences or those around you. I'm just saying that there are a lot of people in this country who are in a vastly different economic situation than you. As a counter to your example, I live in a rich, coastal city that votes ~80% Democratic every election. Every single person I know is doing very well and is exceptionally better off than they were a few years ago, even accounting for the current inflationary environment. But that doesn't mean that my experience is applicable to everyone in this country. Do you think those top 50% (to be generous) on the "fine" side of the widening income gap have no friends or family suffering on the other side? Have no concern with the well-being of their neighbors or the institutions they use? The only way for your defense of "the economy is fine" messaging is if no one to whom it is targeted to ever looks out their window to see the haggard face of their delivery driver working 50+ hours a week to keep afloat.
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Jun 6, 2022 04:31
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Meatball posted:"Biden is rattled by his sinking approval ratings and is looking to regain voters’ confidence" They've successfully marginalised and silenced anyone remotely left in the party and now they don't have literally anyone they'll actually listen to who offers the most basic solutions of 'do things to materially improve people's lives'. It's an echo chamber of senile old fucks and worthless failchildren who don't understand anyone outside their bubble.
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Jun 6, 2022 05:26
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Oracle posted:And live where once you get there? Housing market is nuts. Along those lines https://www.curbed.com/2022/05/new-york-more-airbnb-listings-apartments-rentals.html New York Now Has More Airbnb Listings Than Apartments for Rent The fever isn’t breaking. There are now bidding wars for one in every five Manhattan rental apartments (and one in three luxury units), according to the most recent Douglas Elliman report. Inventory in all of Manhattan, Brooklyn, and northwest Queens has been hovering well below 10,000 units — as of April, the number was just 7,669. Which is several thousand less than the number of entire-apartment and entire-home Airbnb rentals available in New York City right now: 10,572, according to AirDNA, a third-party site that tracks short-term rentals. Inside Airbnb, another site that scrapes Airbnb for listings data, puts the number even higher, at 20,397. Ever since Airbnb came on the scene in 2008, there have been concerns that the short-term-rental company would deplete the housing stock by sucking up available rooms, causing prices to rise in cities like New York and San Francisco, where there were already severe housing shortages. The absolute number of available apartments and houses on the site peaked before the pandemic and has since dropped back, according to both Inside Airbnb and AirDNA. But there’s a difference now: There are just so few apartments to be had that Airbnbs make up the majority of the city’s available rentals.
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Jun 6, 2022 10:51
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The disconnect with democrat messeging is that the "Very Important People" can not say "boy the economy is bad," because the algorithms that do the trading skim headlines. If they read Biden saying a recession is happening the markets would poo poo themselves. Which is funny because the fed needs the markets to poo poo themselves. They just want it to happen in am orderly way.
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Jun 6, 2022 13:04
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Ghost Leviathan posted:They've successfully marginalised and silenced anyone remotely left in the party and now they don't have literally anyone they'll actually listen to who offers the most basic solutions of 'do things to materially improve people's lives'.
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Jun 6, 2022 13:35
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https://twitter.com/crampell/status/1533632676225220609 Add it to the pile. But the economy is still good because of these certain metrics chosen by the same people the status quo benefits, right guys?
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Jun 6, 2022 14:34
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I heard it referred to as a working class recession. It may be that it isn't an 'actual' recession by the numbers, but the crunch on the lower economic class is real and quite omnipresent. Love that the CTC just died
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Jun 6, 2022 14:37
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I heard it referred to as a working class recession. It may be that it isn't an 'actual' recession by the numbers, but the crunch on the lower economic class is real and quite omnipresent. This is exactly what is happening. Heather Long had an opinion piece this weekend that laid out how the USA economy could still "grow" as long as the top 40% of Americans continue to spend. Cardi B tweeted out she thinks we are in a recession. Lol I think Q2 has a good chance for negative GDP and securing the "recession" title. Retailers reporting excess inventories as discretionary spending begins to dry up and usa government spending at home being reduced will be the main drags. Inventories is only 1% typically give or take, but when the Atlanta gdp tracker is at 1.3% that is big. Mr Hootington fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Jun 6, 2022 |
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Jun 6, 2022 14:43
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Mr Hootington posted:This is exactly what is happening. Heather Long had an opinion piece this weekend that laid out how the USA economy could still "grow" as long as the top 40% of Americans continue to spend. Cardi B was famously a supporter of Bernie Sanders in the 2020 primary. You would do well to consider what the motivations of high profile Bernie people convincing you Biden is presiding over an economic recession might be.
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Jun 6, 2022 14:47
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cat botherer posted:Add it to the pile. But the economy is still good because of these certain metrics chosen by the same people the status quo benefits, right guys? I don't think anyone is even saying the economy is "good" right now. Biden himself has been saying there are "problems" and "people are hurting" for the last month or two. But, the "certain metrics" aren't even showing it as good right now either. From January 2021 through about November 2021, wages were rising faster than inflation - which meant real wages were rising. But, that hasn't been the case for a months and real wages have been trending down since December 2021. The consumer/public sentiment is basically the worst it has ever been despite the economic situation being nowhere near as bad as 2009 when you had 20+% unemployment, 10+% of people losing their houses, 1/3 of the stock market gone, a reduction in total jobs available month after month for almost a year, and mass unemployment for half a decade following it. Some people are pointing that out - that the perception is far worse than the actual specific damage and people were less pessimistic about a much worse actual economic calamity - but they aren't saying that it is "good." There are specific "good" things about the economy right now, but none of the major metrics are actually saying it is "good" overall. There is also the fact that the distribution is not evenly shared too. So, some specific people employed in specific industries are getting hit way harder than the underlying metrics would seem. At the same time, the average white collar worker hasn't seen a massive change in their living standard. So, just looking at the overall figures doesn't tell you how people are being hit specifically. But, even the overall figures are in "moderately bad" territory with a "very bad" trend line that needs to change.
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Jun 6, 2022 14:50
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Lib and let die posted:Cardi B was famously a supporter of Bernie Sanders in the 2020 primary. You would do well to consider what the motivations of high profile Bernie people convincing you Biden is presiding over an economic recession might be. She’s also a former stripper, and strippers are reporting on social media that we’re in a recession. https://www.indy100.com/amp/stripper-recession-empty-clubs-2657381850
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Jun 6, 2022 14:57
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Lib and let die posted:Cardi B was famously a supporter of Bernie Sanders in the 2020 primary. You would do well to consider what the motivations of high profile Bernie people convincing you Biden is presiding over an economic recession might be.
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Jun 6, 2022 14:58
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| # ? May 28, 2024 17:14 |
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I don't think anyone is even saying the economy is "good" right now. Biden himself has been saying there are "problems" and "people are hurting" for the last month or two. quote:But, the "certain metrics" aren't even showing it as good right now either. From January 2021 through about November 2021, wages were rising faster than inflation - which meant real wages were rising. But, that hasn't been the case for a months and real wages have been trending down since December 2021.
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Jun 6, 2022 14:58
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