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Main Paineframe posted:There's a dedicated thread for the hearings, if you want to see what goons thought of them. Good point, they don't need to literally prevent him from running. Just successfully prevent him from having viable paths to winning or otherwise seizing power.
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Jun 11, 2022 21:19
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BRJurgis posted:I don't disagree with any of this except the bolded part. I spoke with somebody recently whose take on things was basically "I live 'right' and it's all I can do, and our inevitable collapse and destruction of our climate and huge amounts of life on it are simply going to happen". I couldn't really disagree with him either! I think the enemy is extremely clear and very tangible. They've also structured society entirely around convincing people it's not them, unfortunately.
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Jun 11, 2022 22:01
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A bunch of Nazis and general CHUDS tried to crash a Pride event in Idaho. Apparently the Feds were monitoring the chats of a bunch of Patriot Front losers and they all got arrested (probably around 20-30) for conspiracy to riot. Tweet thread- https://twitter.com/AlissaAzar/status/1535695033747222528?s=20&t=RDYEp_u7wjFmxxydmcQFqQ
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Jun 11, 2022 23:29
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We attended a pride fest today in North Carolina. There was a drag queen story hour event that had the "groomer" Nazis up in arms and the city bowed to the pressure and cancelled that part. But then a Raleigh chapter picked up the sponsorship at the last second and it went off without a hitch. Kids loved it and even got to take pics with the queens. It was remarkably well attended. Didn't see a protestor in site thankfully.
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Jun 11, 2022 23:44
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Can't believe they would arrest them for conspiracy to riot. Riots are cool as hell. This is more like conspiracy to kill a bunch of people.
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Jun 11, 2022 23:50
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FlamingLiberal posted:A bunch of Nazis and general CHUDS tried to crash a Pride event in Idaho. Apparently the Feds were monitoring the chats of a bunch of Patriot Front losers and they all got arrested (probably around 20-30) for conspiracy to riot. https://twitter.com/enfireweed/status/1535747339079458816?s=20 They've used this tactic before. I believe these are the pieces of poo poo Mike Pompeo would regularly tweet about.
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Jun 12, 2022 00:06
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Patriot Front are an organization of on-the-ground brownshirts.
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Jun 12, 2022 00:22
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Push El Burrito posted:Can't believe they would arrest them for conspiracy to riot. Riots are cool as hell. This is more like conspiracy to kill a bunch of people. Given coeur d'alene police, I'm surprised they're arrested at all. Does seem highly likely that this only happened because feds literally forced them to Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Jun 12, 2022 |
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Jun 12, 2022 00:25
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Given coeur d'alene police, I'm surprised they're arrested at all.
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Jun 12, 2022 01:12
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FlamingLiberal posted:According to the cops there people called them because they saw like 20-30 people with weapons and shields loading into a Uhaul Yeah, this is the scary poo poo. And the feds will stop intervening in stuff like this if the Republicans take power again. Biden may have screwed the pooch on some things but he’s pretty rock solid on LGBT+ rights (and doesn’t try to ignore the T part like some).
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Jun 12, 2022 03:06
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https://apnews.com/article/seattle-religion-government-and-politics-the-holocaust-police-b7bd34b6ddfdb3c1441862935dad7ea5 Kent City pays a police officer because he was a nazi
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Jun 12, 2022 03:29
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Main Paineframe posted:We know that they do give at least a little bit of a poo poo about precedent and decorum and norms. The reason they still pretend to care about decorum is because they don't yet hold absolute power and are still theoretically bound by democratic transfer of power, and the die hard 100% true believers are not a majority, so they need to cling to at least the thinnest idea that they're good faith participants in government in order to sway credulous independents into tipping the voting balance and handing them power at the ballot box. 1/6 was, in effect, a trial run to get rid of that annoying limiter. A poorly planned trial run conceived and executed by morons, but it(and every other flailing example of the big lie conspiracy) is very clearly a real attempt to go "But what if we didn't have to care about the consequences of votes any more?". Even once they seize power, I imagine they'll pay a lot of lip service to decorum - lots of references to the constitution and the founding fathers and the good of the country - while quietly ignoring it in practice, because convincing people they're acting in accordance with the law and tradition makes for much smoother propaganda than overtly stamping on it. We've already had examples of this - McConnell talking about the filibuster like it's a sacred institution of the senate and how the democrats can't get rid of it without consequences while completely skating over the fact that his party nuked the judicial filibuster to get the judicial appointees they wanted. It's why Augustus Caesar told the Romans he was restoring the ancient rights of the republic to them while consolidating all the power in the world under himself behind the curtain. Kanos fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Jun 12, 2022 |
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Jun 12, 2022 03:36
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Kanos posted:The reason they still pretend to care about decorum is because they don't yet hold absolute power and are still theoretically bound by democratic transfer of power, and the die hard 100% true believers are not a majority, so they need to cling to at least the thinnest idea that they're good faith participants in government in order to sway credulous independents into tipping the voting balance and handing them power at the ballot box. It's legitimately insanely funny how many times this happens in history.
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Jun 12, 2022 03:41
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is cinci zoo sniper now a general mod rather than just the IK of the ukraine war thread?
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Jun 12, 2022 03:59
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's legitimately insanely funny how many times this happens in history. People who believe in decorum and norms and precedent do have a tendency to be the most naive, gullible rubes ever to exist.
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Jun 12, 2022 04:01
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A big flaming stink posted:is cinci zoo sniper now a general mod rather than just the IK of the ukraine war thread? They're a full mod and focus most of their efforts on the Ukraine thread but sometimes will clear reports for this thread or others if there's a bunch sitting in the queue and they feel like it.
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Jun 12, 2022 04:04
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Oracle posted:Biden may have screwed the pooch on some things but he’s pretty rock solid on LGBT+ rights (and doesn’t try to ignore the T part like some). The guy who voted for DOMA and spent a decade defending it? The guy who enthusiastically boosted DADT? The guy who was publicly speaking out against marriage equality as recently as 2008? The list goes on, if you're going to call Joe Biden "rock solid on LGBT+ rights" you need a pretty huge caveat about "at least for the last couple of years, after spending 90% of his career strongly opposing them".
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Jun 12, 2022 04:28
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Given coeur d'alene police, I'm surprised they're arrested at all. Part that and also part Uvalde maybe, in that right now people are ABSOLUTELY pissed off at police officers not intervening in a timely manner which I feel is a motivating factor for police officers to NOT sit on their hands Also apparently this was in philly and these guys are from texas, so the cops wouldn't know any of them personally and thus have no personal reasons to NOT arrest them.
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Jun 12, 2022 05:40
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AtomikKrab posted:Part that and also part Uvalde maybe, in that right now people are ABSOLUTELY pissed off at police officers not intervening in a timely manner which I feel is a motivating factor for police officers to NOT sit on their hands coeur dalene is on the border between washington and idaho, the philly video was of them getting run out by locals a bit over a year ago
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Jun 12, 2022 05:54
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Coeur D'Alene is a suburb of Spokane which is one of the major chud centers of Eastern Washington. I'm not surprised by this at all
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Jun 12, 2022 06:52
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some plague rats posted:The guy who voted for DOMA and spent a decade defending it? The guy who enthusiastically boosted DADT? The guy who was publicly speaking out against marriage equality as recently as 2008? The list goes on, if you're going to call Joe Biden "rock solid on LGBT+ rights" you need a pretty huge caveat about "at least for the last couple of years, after spending 90% of his career strongly opposing them". Pretty sure the OP had a heavily implied “as president” so yeah, the past couple years. No one would care if he was absolutely perfect on all of those issues pre-presidency and then decided, as the person in control of the executive branch of government, not to be rock solid. Same reason no one cares Trump used to say he was pro-choice.
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Jun 12, 2022 06:54
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Could we all just avoid a lot of back and forth in this thread by all agreeing to never describe any currently serving politicians or their actions with an unqualified positive connotation, replacing such words with terms more along the lines of "less bad"? I'm not being snarky, US politics is a filter sorta like US law enforcement, and truly principled people are consistently kept out of it, and we need to all keep that in mind.
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Jun 12, 2022 13:13
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BRJurgis posted:
I'm interested in what "fight" means in this context. If it is politically, there is no realistic vehicle for doing so other than a left-wing takeover of the Democratic Party, using whatever means. If it is the actual kind of fight, than there really isn't much of a starting point there for a bunch of reasons stated in this thread before by me or others. I disagree there isn't a tangible, clear enemy, There definitely is, that is each and every Republican, be they voter or politician. There are also many Democrats who are clear enemies among representatives. The enemy isn't the problem, the obvious universal lack of doing something about them is.
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Jun 12, 2022 14:29
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DarkCrawler posted:I'm interested in what "fight" means in this context. If it is politically, there is no realistic vehicle for doing so other than a left-wing takeover of the Democratic Party, using whatever means. If it is the actual kind of fight, than there really isn't much of a starting point there for a bunch of reasons stated in this thread before by me or others. A left-wing takeover of the democrats is unlikely given the lack of a meaningful mass of leftists in America. We kinda need new Americans before that would work.
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Jun 12, 2022 14:38
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Bel Shazar posted:A left-wing takeover of the democrats is unlikely given the lack of a meaningful mass of leftists in America. I think there's a potentially meaningful mass, but the system is designed so that they can't really try anything within it without being utterly shot down.
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Jun 12, 2022 14:57
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Ghost Leviathan posted:People who believe in decorum and norms and precedent do have a tendency to be the most naive, gullible rubes ever to exist. Precedent, norms, and decorum are generally important parts of a functioning government because it's virtually impossible to codify hard-and-fast laws for every single thing that comes up during the running of a large government and judicial system. Decorum especially is important in a political system like a republic or democracy, where people with very different views and opinions will need to work together in government together - opposing factions need to treat each other with some level of respect and good faith for the overall good of the country for any democratic or republican system involving more than one major party or everything grinds to a complete halt. The problem always occurs when someone ambitious enough eventually asks the question "Well, what happens if I just ignore those norms and do what I want?" and nobody does anything about it.
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Jun 12, 2022 15:09
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Yinlock posted:I think there's a potentially meaningful mass, but the system is designed so that they can't really try anything within it without being utterly shot down. Maybe, but in my experience possible leftists turn out to be pro markets, pro strong federal govt, etc. socially progressive, but center-right economically with an existential dread at the thought of what it takes to make a meaningful change to the country. e: the ones that complain about oppressed people rioting...
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Jun 12, 2022 15:11
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yronic heroism posted:Pretty sure the OP had a heavily implied “as president” so yeah, the past couple years. No one would care if he was absolutely perfect on all of those issues pre-presidency and then decided, as the person in control of the executive branch of government, not to be rock solid. Same reason no one cares Trump used to say he was pro-choice. even still, what has he done to merit the designation as "rock solid on LGBT". all i see is some lip service paid to the idea of LGBT rights, as southern states pass ghoulish anti-trans legislation. he's maybe not openly anti-lgbt but i think you'd need to support your assertion w some evidence
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Jun 12, 2022 15:20
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Bel Shazar posted:A left-wing takeover of the democrats is unlikely given the lack of a meaningful mass of leftists in America. That's why leftists should use the same tools countless leftist movements in the past have used to increase their support among people - or other movements have. Start changing the existing political base. Motivate the people who haven't been politically engaged before to bring in new constituencies. Bribe voters. You don't even need to couch it in terms of left VS others, there are plenty of fault lines in American society to exploit. Just try anything instead of the pointless appeals to material conditions and innate sense of care for you fellow man that they try and fail in, over and over and over and over again. There are targets, there are means, there is the impetus and if the fundraising is anything to go by, there is money. Yinlock posted:I think there's a potentially meaningful mass, but the system is designed so that they can't really try anything within it without being utterly shot down. Only if you play by their rules of decorum and not being too mean against the people who try to destroy everything important to them because hey, not all Republicans are bad and they might be potential allies if you just talk to them long enough and make them realize how they're bamboozled! You can't say they're shot down if they try anything when the recent campaigns have only tried the one approach.
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Jun 12, 2022 15:28
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DarkCrawler posted:I'm interested in what "fight" means in this context. If it is politically, there is no realistic vehicle for doing so other than a left-wing takeover of the Democratic Party, using whatever means. If it is the actual kind of fight, than there really isn't much of a starting point there for a bunch of reasons stated in this thread before by me or others. Thanks for the response, but I thought I covered this. "People want to feel strong and powerful, independent. We're simply never going to get a critical mass of people on the same page as long as democrats and Republicans are how we understand our relation to power. Frankly it won't happen while our current systems and culture exist in their present state. If the great recession, trump, and covid didnt significantly change them, if this next great economic disaster won't (it won't), what will it take?" The system and it's laws don't exist without our participation and complicity. Because of our electoral/political culture, and the design of our systems, there is no way forward in a traditional political sense. Leftists aren't going to take over the democratic party, they'd have to replace them, and even then our current paradigms simply sentence them to being "new democrats". The political propaganda machine and the historical, cultural momentum of the word "Democrat and republican" are too effective, too captured. A rejection of republican and Democrat, and largely our present system, is actually better received amongst manyo who are lost to Dems, and far more likely to change things than asking people to vote for the "correct" candidate or expecting that glacial slow but quickly backsliding avenue to achieve anything. Whether we expect some democratic solution or full on revolution, we need the strength that only comes with large amounts of committed people. If that strength could be gathered and leveraged, power may even be forced to make meaningful concessions in the form of real change. That's the fight. quote:I disagree there isn't a tangible, clear enemy, There definitely is, that is each and every Republican, be they voter or politician. There are also many Democrats who are clear enemies among representatives. The enemy isn't the problem, the obvious universal lack of doing something about them is. See being so eager to declare large groups of
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Jun 12, 2022 16:20
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:even still, what has he done to merit the designation as "rock solid on LGBT". all i see is some lip service paid to the idea of LGBT rights, as southern states pass ghoulish anti-trans legislation. What should Biden be doing about southern states passing anti-trans legislation that would earn a 'rock solid' from you?
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Jun 12, 2022 16:38
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:even still, what has he done to merit the designation as "rock solid on LGBT". all i see is some lip service paid to the idea of LGBT rights, as southern states pass ghoulish anti-trans legislation. You can literally go to glaad’s website they keep track of this poo poo. A small sampling: quote:1.20.2022: (first day in office) He hit the ground running first day in office and hasn’t slowed down. This isn’t a recent development either. On ‘Meet the Press’ in 2012 (which forced Obama to come out publicly in support of gay marriage sooner than he wanted to): quote:Biden was asked by anchor David Gregory on May 4, 2012, whether he had rethought his longstanding opposition to same-sex marriage. “I am absolutely comfortable with the fact that men marrying men, women marrying women, and heterosexual men and women marrying another are entitled to the same exact rights, all the civil rights, all the civil liberties,” Biden responded. “Who do you love? And will you be loyal to the person you love? And that’s what people are finding out is what all marriages, at their root, are about, whether they’re marriages of lesbians or gay men or heterosexuals.” … quote:On a visit to Provincetown, Mass., he thanked gay and lesbian advocates for “freeing the soul of the American people” and in Florida told the mother of a concerned transgender child that anti-trans discrimination is the “civil rights issue of our time,” then a strikingly farsighted assessment. … quote:As Biden considered a late entry into the 2016 race, some of the loudest encouragement came from Scott Miller and Tim Gill, who as the country’s most important funder of LGBTQ causes had been more responsible than any other individual for making marriage activism a priority for movement organizations. (Miller is now Biden’s ambassador to Switzerland.) To the extent Biden had any core constituency within the Democratic Party as he did seek its presidential nomination four years later, it might have been gay and lesbian donors. He’s also been an firm supporter of trans rights, thanks to a personal relationship with a trans staffer from his home state, Sarah McBride, whose book he wrote the forward to in 2017. quote:In his moving foreword, Vice President Biden writes, “We are at an inflection point in the fight for transgender equality, what I have called the civil rights issue of our time. And it’s not just a singular issue of identity, it’s about freeing the soul of America from the constraints of bigotry, hate, and fear, and opening people’s hearts and minds to what binds us all together. And that’s what makes Sarah’s book so powerful.” On the law just passed in Texas: quote:“Affirming a transgender child’s identity is one of the best things a parent, teacher, or doctor can do to help keep children from harm, and parents who love and affirm their children should be applauded and supported, not threatened, investigated, or stigmatized,” he said. Could he do more? Probably, but he seems to have picked a side in 2012 and stuck with it, to the marked betterment to me and my LGBTQ+ loved ones, even in the face of the current resurgence of bigoted Republican gay and trans panic bullshit. And while I don’t agree with everything he’s done in office I have absolutely no doubt that if Republicans take over, me and my loved ones lives will absolutely be worse, in more physical danger than it already is, and it’ll be backed up encouraged and supported at a federal level.
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Jun 12, 2022 16:41
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Keep in mind this does not have 60 votes. https://twitter.com/jakesherman/status/1536010845917954048?s=21&t=0c6Zl8SCdXWhwZ-JMNooPw
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Jun 12, 2022 16:43
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negativeneil posted:What should Biden be doing about southern states passing anti-trans legislation that would earn a 'rock solid' from you? It's honestly scary that the president and federal government being too impotent and weak to protect people from state governments is becoming a legitimate defense for why you can't call it a failure on their part when southern states pass anti-trans legislation. It's not their fault they can't protect the people they promise to protect, they're just too weak.
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Jun 12, 2022 16:44
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Yinlock posted:I think there's a potentially meaningful mass, but the system is designed so that they can't really try anything within it without being utterly shot down. I think this is a bunch of excuses, and that an actually meaningful mass of leftists couldn't be excluded from political power so easily. If the left can't even handle the small petty tricks wielded by the decorum-loving Democrats, how the gently caress can they hope to beat the outright fascists who have decades of experience in voter suppression and intimidation? If the left is going to be that helpless, then they're hardly in any position to accuse the Dems of being bad at politics. I bang this drum a lot here, but being able to turn out real numbers and massive support is crucial. Even straight-up military dictatorships that outright massacre protesters and dissidents en masse still find it extremely difficult to hold onto power in the face of a genuine mass movement.
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Jun 12, 2022 16:51
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Main Paineframe posted:I think this is a bunch of excuses, and that an actually meaningful mass of leftists couldn't be excluded from political power so easily. If the left can't even handle the small petty tricks wielded by the decorum-loving Democrats, how the gently caress can they hope to beat the outright fascists who have decades of experience in voter suppression and intimidation? If the left is going to be that helpless, then they're hardly in any position to accuse the Dems of being bad at politics. Separately, things just aren't bad enough yet for a widespread non-liberal movement to take off - it really does take a widespread failure to maintain homeostasis (to abuse some terms), like was seen in late Tsarist Russia. cat botherer fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jun 12, 2022 |
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Jun 12, 2022 17:04
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cat botherer posted:
The idea that an ideology can only gain traction when poo poo is dire and horrific doesn't seem like a positive thing, more like a pascal's mugging.
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Jun 12, 2022 17:07
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:The idea that an ideology can only gain traction when poo poo is dire and horrific doesn't seem like a positive thing, more like a pascal's mugging. edit: * An obvious candidate would be the American revolution - but that wasn't really a "revolution" in a meaningful way. The same people in America were in charge of production before and after. edit edit: Pascal's mugging doesn't really apply here - there is no rational agent in charge of anything. Again, its all a complex system of interdependent ecology, empirically non-rational individuals, organizations, govts, etc. There's periods of chaotic phase transition between periods of stability of the larger-scale structures. cat botherer fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jun 12, 2022 |
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Jun 12, 2022 17:11
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's honestly scary that the president and federal government being too impotent and weak to protect people from state governments is becoming a legitimate defense for why you can't call it a failure on their part when southern states pass anti-trans legislation. It's not their fault they can't protect the people they promise to protect, they're just too weak. Not sure if the wording of this post is implying that I'm defending Biden or if you're using the royal you, but you could try answering the question too. What should the president be doing that he's not?
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Jun 12, 2022 17:24
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negativeneil posted:Not sure if the wording of this post is implying that I'm defending Biden or if you're using the royal you, but you could try answering the question too. What should the president be doing that he's not? Protecting trans people in America, a thing he was elected to do. The process doesn't matter here, it's just if we're getting the results we were promised or not.
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Jun 12, 2022 17:38
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