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the game explicitly says, multiple times through different characters, that claire is actually 100% sincere about socialism though edit: besides his buffoonery is carefully presented in order to make others underestimate how incredibly dangerous he is (and his brother I suppose)
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Jun 13, 2022 04:04
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I mean, the Sunday Friend has made very assertive decisions about who he is and what he does. By comparison to anyone but Joyce Or the Light Bending Guy, he's the most powerful person in Martinaise, an outsider that's there to do a job first, and engage in some sex tourism second. He doesn't bother giving a pair of RCM detectives a straight answer to anything but the testimony he wants to give (which will conveniently indict the Union in a murder), because they're so utterly beneath him that he doesn't see the point. Of course, being a true believer in the Moralintern, he'll happily rattle off his bullet points and the like, even as he can't be bothered to remember what Martin Martinaise is studying (assuming he is, in fact, a student, and not just trying to survive like everybody else), and cheerfully reveal behind his back that his people will never be admitted to the Elysium EU and actually matter. Make no mistake, the Sunday Friend is extremely comfortable with who he is, and what he represents. He just isn't even the slightest bit apologetic about it the way Joyce is; she's very matter-of-fact about being a horrible rich piece of poo poo, but there's also this side she cloaks in self-deprecating humor that make it clear she knows she's a bad person and feels kind of bad about that. The Sunday Friend doesn't think he's bad at all, he thinks he's absolutely in the right, just like all the other antagonists in the game.
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Jun 13, 2022 04:04
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One can be ethically immoral. Or unethically moral. Ethical is living according to your moral principles. Morality is if those principles are right or wrong.
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Jun 13, 2022 04:06
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dead gay comedy forums posted:the game explicitly says, multiple times through different characters, that claire is actually 100% sincere about socialism though Titus, on the other hand, would no question fight and die to protect his community. Dude is a socialist in a very real sense. Maybe I'm off on my read of Claire, but to me it's the contrast between the principles his organization stands for and his obvious love of personal power and enrichment that makes him come across as slimy. Edit: and yeah, when I'm saying personal integrity I'm talking about living ethically in the way that Bar suggests: actually living according to your beliefs, whatever those are.
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Jun 13, 2022 04:16
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Ersatz posted:I wouldn't say that Joyce is center left at all. She's pragmatically and unapologetically capitalist. I think the game presents her with more respect because she doesn't hide that behind a layer of bullshit the way Sunday Friend does. She is who she is. Pragmatically capitalist is probably the best way to describe her. Exploitative, but not to the point of grinding workers into dust - but likely only because she recognises workers who aren't completely knackered are more efficient and therefore exploitable.
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Jun 13, 2022 04:19
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Claire's whole personalist streak is one of the things the game leaves genuinely open-ended if you pursue it right to the finish. He's definitely a hardcore communist, no doubt about that, but how much does he actually care for personal power? The game deliberately goes back and forth on that to confuse the issue.
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Jun 13, 2022 04:21
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It says something about this game's writing that despite her being ideologically opposite to so many of my own personal views, I can't bring myself to hate Joyce. She's a selfish scumbag capitalist, but at least she isn't ashamed to admit it. And at the end of the day her desire to help solve the case and avoid needless bloodshed comes off as genuine.
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Jun 13, 2022 04:22
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Ersatz posted:You're right about what the game says about Claire, and yet despite that I can't shake the feeling that he'd be a 100% true believer in whatever system could be made to benefit him most personally. Which is why him being in charge of the Union of all things is so jarring. I think if Evrart was fine with whatever benefitted himself the most he'd be fine being a lackey of the Moralintern. I think an undercurrent to Evrart is a very real belief that Communism is what will benefit Martinaise and to a greater extent Revachol the most. In the course of the story he basically primes another Revacholian revolution. Evrart is a patriot and a true hero, and helping me find my gun.
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Jun 13, 2022 04:23
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Aoi posted:The Sunday Friend doesn't think he's bad at all, he thinks he's absolutely in the right, just like all the other antagonists in the game. Joyce earns a favorable presentation because she understands her circumstances in the world and owns it entirely ("my interminably large bourgeois boat"), which carries a lot of nuance in characterization: for example, her resentment against the Moralintern and sympathy with the Revolution for standing up against it (saying that they should have burned the city to the ground if they had to). the sunday friend gets trashed with reason because he represents the people in places like the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund etc, people who voluntarily become subsumed into the functions of capital, throwing away parts of themselves in order to perform such roles. As such, they regurgitate platitudes, talking points, "qualified opinions", never having something of their own to say. They exculpate their actions into an ethereal belief on what is necessary, never owning their actual interest. "It's just the way things are", "that's just how the world works" and so it goes
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Jun 13, 2022 04:30
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evrart’s sleaze is undergirded by a genuine fury towards the wealthy and ruling class. he’s corrupt, but his smarter underlings like manana recognize that it’s a necessary corruption, and if he was solely in it for himself then he’d have just curried favor with the likes of wild pines instead of turning the union into a ballistic missile pointed at martinaise’s established order
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Jun 13, 2022 04:30
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Ersatz posted:I wouldn't say that Joyce is center left at all. She's pragmatically and unapologetically capitalist. I think the game presents her with more respect because she doesn't hide that behind a layer of bullshit the way Sunday Friend does. She is who she is. Yeah, I mean it in the center-left sense in US politics. You know, the liberals - capitalists. They talk the talk, say some platitudes about progressive ideas or how some of these things would be good (but not right now, no sir we got other problems to deal with first) but they ultimately choose capital above all else. I didn't get that from Sunday Friend. One thing for sure is that Joyce definitely watches and loves West Wing. As for Claire, I haven't made up my mind. I read these characters from an anarchist pov and, to me, he represents the pitfalls and failures of hierarchy. I don't know if he's a true believer but the fact that he does what he does - manipulations, casting aside those not in the party (the people effected by the youth center) is only possible because he's in a position of unaccountable power. He has convinced everyone that this is what's best for them. He's not exactly building communism because the workers don't really have much of a say due to how leadership options seem to be him and his brother with everyone else being strong-armed and discouraged from stepping up to the leadership position. They want direct democracy in the company they work for (a very good thing) but don't have it in their own union.
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Jun 13, 2022 04:30
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Where does cuno fall in all this???????????
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Jun 13, 2022 04:33
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EorayMel posted:Where does cuno fall in all this??????????? cunoist
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Jun 13, 2022 04:34
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Oxxidation posted:cunoist third-worldist
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Jun 13, 2022 04:37
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We're all Cuno's little bitch, in one way or another.
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Jun 13, 2022 04:37
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Cuno is a GenX'er. Drug-filled nihilism rebelling against "the man". In 30 years he'll have his own podcast complaining about "cancel culture" and how leftists are snowflakes who can't take a joke. He's Billy Corgan but without the talent.
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Jun 13, 2022 04:42
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Cuno isn't going to be alive in thirty years
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Jun 13, 2022 04:45
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Oxxidation posted:evrart’s sleaze is undergirded by a genuine fury towards the wealthy and ruling class. he’s corrupt, but his smarter underlings like manana recognize that it’s a necessary corruption, and if he was solely in it for himself then he’d have just curried favor with the likes of wild pines instead of turning the union into a ballistic missile pointed at martinaise’s established order Yup. The thing about Evrart is that, if you want to win against capital, you are going to fight dirty because capital gets to say what is proper, good, legal, correct, fair, etc. It's ideology. They hold the rulebook: sure, you can strike, but you can only strike in this way, with mandatory previous negotiation attempts, forewarning and you must be in an officially recognized section of the government-approved trade union board in order to do so. Even if all steps are done correctly, a judge can simply declare it illegal for whatever reason so being a highly effective union leader necessarily leads into becoming into somebody who is certainly going to be considered a motherfucker in some way
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Jun 13, 2022 04:50
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Which subforum would Cuno post in?
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Jun 13, 2022 04:50
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Nessus posted:Which subforum would Cuno post in? TCC when cuno is riding the lightning(cuno always rides the lightning) And then LAN
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Jun 13, 2022 04:52
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Nessus posted:Which subforum would Cuno post in? FYAD 100%
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Jun 13, 2022 05:01
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im permabanned poster pissf*****
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Jun 13, 2022 05:10
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EorayMel posted:Where does cuno fall in all this??????????? Cuno is a moralist. He does not care and chooses no ideology, thus the ideology (of the status quo) chooses him.
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Jun 13, 2022 05:29
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Cuno just wants to grill.
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Jun 13, 2022 05:30
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Gaius Marius posted:Cuno isn't going to be alive in thirty years a lot of Revacholiere aren't gonna be alive in thirty years if Shivers is to be believed
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Jun 13, 2022 07:02
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Im currently turning Cuno into a cop, on this playthrough.
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Jun 13, 2022 07:28
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EorayMel posted:Where does cuno fall in all this??????????? gently caress does Cuno care?
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Jun 13, 2022 07:53
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Ersatz posted:You're right about what the game says about Claire, and yet despite that I can't shake the feeling that he'd be a 100% true believer in whatever system could be made to benefit him most personally. Which is why him being in charge of the Union of all things is so jarring. Claire is not afraid to be effective. Not going to build any communism by being nice to the liberals you know. Bloody Pom posted:It says something about this game's writing that despite her being ideologically opposite to so many of my own personal views, I can't bring myself to hate Joyce. She's a selfish scumbag capitalist, but at least she isn't ashamed to admit it. And at the end of the day her desire to help solve the case and avoid needless bloodshed comes off as genuine. She caused the case though. And the tribunal. The mercenaries are only there, hell, even only exist, because her class exists.
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Jun 13, 2022 08:16
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Assassinating the old union boss was pretty shady, and screwing over Isobel, Lilienne, and her family is not showing a lot of class solidarity!
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Jun 13, 2022 08:28
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Caufman posted:Assassinating the old union boss was pretty shady, and screwing over Isobel, Lilienne, and her family is not showing a lot of class solidarity!
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Jun 13, 2022 08:45
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EorayMel posted:TCC when cuno is riding the lightning(cuno always rides the lightning) Cuno would register, make 1000 posts in Pet Island and be permabanned the same day
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Jun 13, 2022 08:56
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Nessus posted:I'm confident we can trust the misogynistic geezer with the sniper rifle in his assessment of these people's character. If they were real comrades, surely they could speak for themselves and would not have been set up to get shot in the first place? "I don't agree with his Tiphanie-killing policy, but I do approve of his Lely-killing policy!"
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Jun 13, 2022 08:58
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Evrart can be summed up best with the empathy check against him later in the game where you feel he genuinely wants a workers paradise, he just wouldn't mind a big statue of himself in the middle of it. There's a lot of elements of humanity to them as well, he's given Leo meaningful employment and my favourite is that if you dig into his dealings with the old union negotiator, he stonewalls him precisely because he has given the union so many concessions before and was a decent guy and didn't want him to get tangled up with the coming poo poo storm. I also read into the disappearance of the other union candidate and the no leadership election loophole because they believe that you can not effectively build communism via democracy, it requires, at the start at least, some form of benevolent dictatorship.
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Jun 13, 2022 09:26
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Tiger Millionaire posted:they believe that you can not effectively build communism via democracy, it requires, at the start at least, some form of benevolent dictatorship. Is this reading from the game or politics irl? Direct democracy would be a more communist starting point as well as a working model once established.
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Jun 13, 2022 11:27
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From a narrative viewpoint, if Everart were likeable or Joyce unlikable the game would be a lot shallower. The way the game frames it rhe player has the choice between bad people pursuing positive organizational goals and good people pursuing negative ones. Flip evrart and Joyce and it's just communism great; the video game, and one dimensional Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 11:56
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Jimbot posted:One thing for sure is that Joyce definitely watches and loves West Wing.
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Jun 13, 2022 13:01
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Evrart's corruption isn't seen as necessary, its just forgiven by the Union characters both because he does genuinely believe in making things better and because the cost of opposing him is getting your body dumped in the river. I dont think the game explicitly says it, but it is pretty clear that the long term fate of the Union is going to be the one that all groups share where the leadership has eliminated all the potential successor candidates and the next layer down of the organisation responsible for enforcing loyalty doesn't actually care about the ideology at all. The DeClaires are trying to build a legacy while using methods that basically ensure their movement won't survive them.
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Jun 13, 2022 13:22
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It's the socialist version of "my crook is the only good crook".
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Jun 13, 2022 13:32
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Desdinova posted:Is this reading from the game or politics irl? Direct democracy would be a more communist starting point as well as a working model once established. The takeover of the port into a union owned enterprise has likely been a long time in the making, which isn't really something you can achieve/plan for if you have to stand for re-election every few years and potentially lose your power. I don't know whether this was the plan before or after the twins achieved total control of the Union though, it's a shame we don't get to meet the other brother as he's mentioned as being the more ideologically engaged of the 2
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Jun 13, 2022 13:42
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Tiger Millionaire posted:The takeover of the port into a union owned enterprise has likely been a long time in the making, which isn't really something you can achieve/plan for if you have to stand for re-election every few years and potentially lose your power. I thought you did meet both but the only tell is that one of them has a lazy eye?
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Jun 13, 2022 13:46
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