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TulliusCicero posted:
Everything, everything Trump does is a grift. He's done that since the 70s. The Trump Family is entirely grift.
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Jun 13, 2022 17:48
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SalTheBard posted:I love that Drunk Rudy is a central figure in this story he's certainly a central figure in giuliani's life
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Jun 13, 2022 17:48
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BiggerBoat posted:Why do you think it's stupid? I was frustrated it hadn't started yet? I have been waiting impatiently for it since Thursday TulliusCicero fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 17:48
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I never would make any of these assertions unless I felt I had sufficient understanding of the powers of the DOJ and the GA GJ. There are too many crimes, both Federal AND State, that will not be hand-waved away. For all the poo poo Garland is taking as AG, there is no longer any doubt what DOJ plans to indict on. This testimony about the big lie is beyond compelling. It's absolutely damning.
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Jun 13, 2022 17:49
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Even if they don't go after Trump himself, they are setting the stage to raise questions about the funds he took in and the people connected to them.
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Jun 13, 2022 17:50
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I think Georgia is slightly more likely than DOJ to indict, but I also think both chances are slightly higher than 50/50
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Jun 13, 2022 17:53
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Overall I think they did a piss poor job of proving that Trump knew anything other than "the deep state is out to get me." He believed in a lot of wild and unsubstantiated poo poo but I'm convinced that he believes it.
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Jun 13, 2022 18:04
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Just as a thought exercise: Given DOJ is pursuing Seditious Conspiracy charges against the Proud Boys and Oathkeepers, with whom were they conspiring and how far would DOJ go? I assert there is only one logical answer, and that is Donald Trump. We have proof all the way up to his Chief of Staff, who stands next to him all day every day. You telling me they would maybe indict Meadows but not Trump? Why? Also, when Garland first talked about this publicly he stated plainly he would follow it as far and as high as it went. People who know him have gone on record to insist he fears no man, no POTUS, and he absolutely will see the investigation all the way to the top and hold conspirators accountable. DOJ has also requested and will get the J6 testimony. Why would DOJ let J6 have the info first? The reason is obvious: If they empaneled a Grand Jury and called all of these people in, it would drag on the whole 18 months and all the testimony would be secret. By allowing the Committee to do its work first, the information is made public, which makes DOJ's job much easier. But the DOJ GJ route would mean we'd know none of this information, and there would be no reason for the public to even be aware of this stuff. All you have to do is look at the public-facing information from the court cases, and the Fed Eastmann case out in CA under Judge Carter. Sure, after all the disappointments we've had, it's easy to just laugh this off. I think that is unwise. Dubar posted:Overall I think they did a piss poor job of proving that Trump knew anything other than "the deep state is out to get me." He believed in a lot of wild and unsubstantiated poo poo but I'm convinced that he believes it. Even if he believed all the fraud rumors, they proved that when they pushed back on one claim, he would accept the truth and move onto another claim. He was just grasping because he knew what awaited him if his Coup failed. It had to succeed. Pence was his last hope, and Pence didn't go along. E: They call it "willful denial" and it will not protect you from being prosecuted for criming. Dr. Faustus fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 18:05
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Dubar posted:Overall I think they did a piss poor job of proving that Trump knew anything other than "the deep state is out to get me." He believed in a lot of wild and unsubstantiated poo poo but I'm convinced that he believes it. The problem is his legal arms did not and were informing him of the lack of evidence, as well as the courts. So the problem is you having a guy in the white house basically ignoring the rule of law and his own legal counsel.
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Jun 13, 2022 18:06
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Yeah it looks like 1) the goal is to indict trump and 2) this is the logical progression of the doj kicking a duty to indict back to congress and this is congress, yeah, basically doing the work of a grand jury publicly, for them
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Jun 13, 2022 18:08
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Dubar posted:Overall I think they did a piss poor job of proving that Trump knew anything other than "the deep state is out to get me." He believed in a lot of wild and unsubstantiated poo poo but I'm convinced that he believes it. ...They proved without a doubt that Trump was informed by all his legal experts that the fraud claims were baseless, AND he raised 250 million to fight it anyway and then never used the money for that at all. He willingly pushed fraud claims anyway and directly personally profited from doing so I get Doomerism has seized many of us, but what the gently caress are you actually talking about? 
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Jun 13, 2022 18:11
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TulliusCicero posted:...They proved without a doubt that Trump was informed by all his legal experts that the fraud claims were baseless, AND he raised 250 million to fight it anyway and then never used the money for that at all. He willingly pushed fraud claims anyway and directly personally profited from doing so
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Jun 13, 2022 18:16
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Dubar posted:Overall I think they did a piss poor job of proving that Trump knew anything other than "the deep state is out to get me." He believed in a lot of wild and unsubstantiated poo poo but I'm convinced that he believes it. This seems accurate but I am not a lawyer https://twitter.com/sethabramson/status/1536344786872983552?s=21&t=dMTOLMyZ9mlr7BRlfUgu1Q
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Jun 13, 2022 18:18
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Dr. Faustus posted:To the extent they showed the money going to Mark Meadows and Trump himself, even. Five loving million dollars to Meadows, lol I think the key here is this: Trump claims he still knew better and went with the fraud claims anyway... But if he believed truly he was justified to his core why not spend any of the 250 million on court cases? Because he knew he lost and he didn't care, and he was already planning to steal the election anyway. The money was a bonus
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Jun 13, 2022 18:22
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^^^ Yeah Seth Abramson isn't a guy with a reputation sufficient you'd want to use him as a source around here. But that doesn't mean he is wrong.
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Jun 13, 2022 18:23
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Ari Melber saying you need Rudy's beer-goggles to even consider this plan of declaring victory and alleging fraud. Beer goggles. Anyway I've been here for a loving long rear end time and I am completely familiar with the prevailing sentiment regarding "mattering." Hell, I was right there up until three things happened: 1) Eastmann tried to exert privilege over documents that he alleged were "hand-written notes" from Donald Trump. That direct connection was the last thing I needed to start hoping. 2) Seditious Conspiracy charges against the Oathkeepers really broke it wide open. Conspiracy means, conspiracy with whom? 3) Last Monday, just in time for the 1st J6 hearing, Seditious Conspiracy charges against five Proud Boys. Those facts alone are enough point to connect and the conclusion is inescapable. But there is more, such as Carter's opinion Eastmann's documents are evidence of felonies by both Eastmann and Trump. Dr. Faustus fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 18:24
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TulliusCicero posted:I think the key here is this: Trump claims he still knew better and went with the fraud claims anyway... *Bangs on table, chanting "mail fraud" louder and louder*
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Jun 13, 2022 18:25
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TulliusCicero posted:I think the key here is this: Trump claims he still knew better and went with the fraud claims anyway... And much like Trump Co.'s long history, every project Trump has ever done is "How much money can I wring out of this as I head for the exit" and the Presidency was no different. He was betting on the insurrection, but it didn't matter if it succeeded or failed, he'd suckered them out of their money AND support and could comfortably go either way while stirring the pot.
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Jun 13, 2022 18:27
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TulliusCicero posted:...They proved without a doubt that Trump was informed by all his legal experts that the fraud claims were baseless, AND he raised 250 million to fight it anyway and then never used the money for that at all. He willingly pushed fraud claims anyway and directly personally profited from doing so
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Jun 13, 2022 18:57
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https://twitter.com/MuellerSheWrote/status/1536390263244922880 not a good day for trump.
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Jun 13, 2022 18:57
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CommieGIR posted:And much like Trump Co.'s long history, every project Trump has ever done is "How much money can I wring out of this as I head for the exit" and the Presidency was no different. He was betting on the insurrection, but it didn't matter if it succeeded or failed, he'd suckered them out of their money AND support and could comfortably go either way while stirring the pot. It's amazing to me that even after being the President of the United States and the possible potential for being Dictator for Life, his greatest aspiration continued to be "How can I grift all of these suckers?" He's consistent I guess
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Jun 13, 2022 19:00
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Did we ever learn what was in all those boxes that Archives seized from Mar-a-Lago?
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Jun 13, 2022 19:08
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Legal experts I'm reading are basically saying that the January 6th committee has done all the DOJ's hard work. All they have to do now, if Garland wanted to, is just take their work and use it, and likely only a rogue jury could save Trump.
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Jun 13, 2022 19:10
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negativeneil posted:Did we ever learn what was in all those boxes that Archives seized from Mar-a-Lago? Based on the new fundraising fraud poo poo that came out going to guess it was related to that mobby_6kl posted:Generally the problem is that they would need to prove he acted with corrupt intent, and wasn't only delusional. Sure, Barr could've told him it was BS, but he could be legitimately convinced that there are millions of stolen votes. Ideally there'd be evidence that he said "yeah I know it's horseshit but I need the money", though his fundraising helps there and there are other bits and pieces. Opening Arguments goes into this a bit, though it doesn't include today's stuff obviously: https://openargs.com/oa604-the-jan-6-hearings/ Wouldn't not spending ANY of the money on election fraud amount to that? I feel like showing people not only did Trump lie but he also SCAMMED everyone is the new information and silver bullet TulliusCicero fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 19:11
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TulliusCicero posted:It's amazing to me that even after being the President of the United States and the possible potential for being Dictator for Life, his greatest aspiration continued to be "How can I grift all of these suckers?" When all you have is a hammer..
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Jun 13, 2022 19:13
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mobby_6kl posted:Generally the problem is that they would need to prove he acted with corrupt intent, and wasn't only delusional. Sure, Barr could've told him it was BS, but he could be legitimately convinced that there are millions of stolen votes. Ideally there'd be evidence that he said "yeah I know it's horseshit but I need the money", though his fundraising helps there and there are other bits and pieces. Opening Arguments goes into this a bit, though it doesn't include today's stuff obviously: https://openargs.com/oa604-the-jan-6-hearings/ What I've read is that in federal court willful ignorance in the face of overwhelming facts is not a defense. In other words when the defendant is told this forcefully by people (especially experts he hired!) he should have trusted the truth, and there is no way a reasonable person should have instead decided to believe in bullshit, choosing to believe in bullshit anyway and later saying "oops sorry I thought the bullshit was true" is not an acceptable legal defense. If Trump was surrounded by like minded idiots or if a reasonable person may have doubted the one unconvincing lonely voice in the room trying to tell the truth it would be different.
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Jun 13, 2022 19:16
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TulliusCicero posted:Based on the new fundraising fraud poo poo that came out going to guess it was related to that I used to believe this, too, before "the cruelty is the point". The folks that are this far down the rabbit hole with Trump just want to be a part of something. It will be effortless for them to come up with some justification for why they aren't a bunch of marks who got scammed. Case in point: QAnon is still going strong. Rigel posted:Legal experts I'm reading are basically saying that the January 6th committee has done all the DOJ's hard work. All they have to do now, if Garland wanted to, is just take their work and use it, and likely only a rogue jury could save Trump. feels like a Reverse Mueller: air all the dirty laundry in public first. negativeneil fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 19:26
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I feel like I knew most of the poo poo I've been hearing but this is just a loving mountain of evidence. OJ Simpson levels of evidence. And tbh the most disturbing thing about listening to this is having to hear Trump speak because jesus christ what a child he is and I've enjoyed not listening to his self serving petulant voice the last two years. A lone bright spot I guess. Can't we find two loving people in a nation of millions better suited for the highest office in the land with an idea or two than Joe Biden, Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton?
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Jun 13, 2022 19:56
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BiggerBoat posted:the most disturbing thing about listening to this is having to hear Trump speak because jesus christ what a child he is and I've enjoyed not listening to his self serving petulant voice the last two years.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:03
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BiggerBoat posted:I feel like I knew most of the poo poo I've been hearing but this is just a loving mountain of evidence. OJ Simpson levels of evidence. And tbh the most disturbing thing about listening to this is having to hear Trump speak because jesus christ what a child he is and I've enjoyed not listening to his self serving petulant voice the last two years. A lone bright spot I guess. Even as someone who full believes Trump was guilty of felonies both regarding Ukraine and the Mueller stuff I ways thought a key peoblem to both cases was a lack of Republican witnesses and mostly hearsay evidence. This case though? They have neverending piles of evidence, testimony from his own staff and lawyers, recorded phone calls and conversations, financial records... The committee definitely did its homework What is Liz Cheney's game though? She wants to be moderate queen of the ashes after the Trump led GOP Civil War? There is no way that loving rear end in a top hat doesn't burn them on the way out for "betraying" him. Has he posted on his personal hugbox yet?
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Jun 13, 2022 20:09
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Dr. Faustus posted:The language used to sound cryptic or coded, like kinda sly. How did his language seem sly to anyone? He's always been too stupid to make any sense. He just says whatever things cross his brain at any moment.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:14
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TulliusCicero posted:What is Liz Cheney's game though? She wants to be moderate queen of the ashes after the Trump led GOP Civil War? Revenge against Kevin McCarthy. She's a Cheney, grievance and revenge is the family business. Kevin McCarthy hosed her over, so she's going to take him down, even if she has to do the equivalent of running up and hugging him wearing a vest full of C4 and pushing the detonator just to be sure she gets him.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:19
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nine-gear crow posted:Revenge against Kevin McCarthy. She's a Cheney, grievance and revenge is the family business. Kevin McCarthy hosed her over, so she's going to take him down, even if she has to do the equivalent of running up and hugging him wearing a vest full of C4 and pushing the detonator just to be sure she gets him.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:26
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Keisari posted:So, what's the chance of Trump getting indicted? Are there any sites like electionbettingodds that show some kind of live "market"? I'm very curious. I had thought it was only a pipe-dream but all of this ramping up makes me think that it might be a "double digit percentage" chance. The same chance of every supermodel in the world booking a flight to Wisconsin to personally declare their undying love for me.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:26
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Dr. Faustus posted:^^^ Yeah Joyce Vance is a former US DA and she's saying the same thing.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:28
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mobby_6kl posted:Oh, I wasn't aware there was history there. Can't she just shoot him with a shotgun? After Jan 6th, McCarthy and Cheney were on the same page of "Holy gently caress, this is beyond the pale bad, we need to get rid of Trump now." Then McCarthy flew down to Mar-A-Lago, bowed his head and kissed Trump's ring and got back in line, and when Cheney went "What the gently caress, man?" McCarthy pushed her under the bus and made her the official sacrifice for Republicans to absolve their sins of ever momentarily having bad thoughts about Donald Trump on and kicked her out of leadership in favor of someone even crazier and more loyal to Trump. This has had the effect of turning Liz Cheney into The Punisher, a loathsome Republican shitbag out to destroy her lone chosen target through the most (politically) violent means she has access to with no concern for her own future because she has none.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:33
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TulliusCicero posted:
I think she wants a return to the time of "reasonable republicans" that committed their crimes with a lot of cover and obfuscation. Also, she seems fairly intelligent and I doubt she likes the idiotic bullshit that's infiltrated her meal ticket, voter base and family legacy. And, if we're being honest, I think she believes in at least a semblance or an illusion of democracy and seems to honestly realize that all this stuff coming from Trump is the bullshit that Barr called it. I stop short of saying she has a lot of integrity but I do think that all this is a bridge too far, even for her.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:36
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Rigel posted:Legal experts I'm reading are basically saying that the January 6th committee has done all the DOJ's hard work. All they have to do now, if Garland wanted to, is just take their work and use it, and likely only a rogue jury could save Trump. Nobody in the position to do so has the balls to indict a former President. Even if Trump was on video stabbing a nun to death, he'd never see the inside of a courtroom. Because decorum.
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Jun 13, 2022 20:37
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Murgos posted:Joyce Vance is a former US DA and she's saying the same thing. BigBallChunkyTime posted:Nobody in the position to do so has the balls to indict a former President. Even if Trump was on video stabbing a nun to death, he'd never see the inside of a courtroom. Because decorum. Dr. Faustus fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Jun 13, 2022 |
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Jun 13, 2022 21:08
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BiggerBoat posted:I think she wants a return to the time of "reasonable republicans" that committed their crimes with a lot of cover and obfuscation. Also, she seems fairly intelligent and I doubt she likes the idiotic bullshit that's infiltrated her meal ticket, voter base and family legacy. And, if we're being honest, I think she believes in at least a semblance or an illusion of democracy and seems to honestly realize that all this stuff coming from Trump is the bullshit that Barr called it. It's amazing to me how many big business Republicans want to get into bed with Trump. I can't imagine a worse environment for business than a completely arbitrary and capricious government with the power all in a few peoples hands. Why on earth would they back someone who is likely to go on twitter and tank their stock for something a VPs spouse said at a party even after they've bribed him?
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Jun 13, 2022 21:09
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