Mahjong - Enter the Green Dragon - The Something Awful Forums

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Feels Villeneuve: Oct 7, 2007; Setter is Better.

chanta is something you get forced into because of your draws or just ends up being a bonus with a yakuhai hand or something, it's never something you go after

# ? Jun 13, 2022 15:57

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 13:35

Big Mackson: Sep 26, 2009

i thought about my playstyle and i realized i dont think about pinfu, there are so many hands i could have shut down with pinfu if i had that in mind. low value hand have their uses.

# ? Jun 13, 2022 17:11

Tamba: Apr 5, 2010

Never forget that pinfu+riichi+tsumo+tanyao (or replace any one of these with a dora) is a mangan hand with a high chance of actually getting that hand because it forces you to have a good wait.
It should be the default you aim for if you can't see something better (more valuable or faster).

Tamba fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Jun 13, 2022

# ? Jun 13, 2022 17:26

Irony Be My Shield: Jul 29, 2012

Yeah Pinfu and Tanyao have the advantage of being compatible with developing your hand well.

# ? Jun 13, 2022 17:33

Nighthand: Nov 4, 2009; what horror the gas

Pinfu is a hand I get accidentally fairly often, and have extreme trouble going for if I'm actually trying to get it (like for an event quest).

Here's a question: if your hand is almost complete and tanyao except your pair is a terminal, would you complete it as-is or push for a simples pair instead? I know this is highly contextual, but I often wonder if I'm over-estimating how difficult it might be to make a hand a bit more valuable with an action like that.

# ? Jun 13, 2022 17:57

Maxwell Lord: Dec 12, 2008; I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.; Grimey Drawer

Nighthand posted:

Pinfu is a hand I get accidentally fairly often, and have extreme trouble going for if I'm actually trying to get it (like for an event quest).

Here's a question: if your hand is almost complete and tanyao except your pair is a terminal, would you complete it as-is or push for a simples pair instead? I know this is highly contextual, but I often wonder if I'm over-estimating how difficult it might be to make a hand a bit more valuable with an action like that.

At this point your point totals, turn order, dealership, etc. come into play- if I've got a lead and want to maintain it, or if I want to keep my dealership, I would probably go with the simple completion, but there may be times when I just plain need more points.

# ? Jun 13, 2022 18:37

wocobob: Jan 7, 2014; damages enemies w/ corn

Tamba posted:

The last two discards in east 1 were very dangerous. You were still two tiles away from a winning hand, with only 2 tiles left to draw (unless you got a pon). But there were no 5s or 8m visible at this point, so it is extremely unlikely that someone would discard a tile that dangerous this late, and there was only one 8p left, so the odds were not good for you.
For a hand that would have been worth 1600 points.

Meanwhile, the player to your left was in riichi, there were 3 dora left that you couldn't see(high chance that someone has them in ther hand) + 2 sets of ura dora. If you got hit by that it could have hurt a lot (The ura dora would not have mattered in that game, because they were 4p and 6m, but you had no way of knowing that).
You should have given up on that hand and played defensively there.

One round later, there were no draws left for you, and you still tried to push that hand, even though 4m would have been a 100% safe discard.

e: two more more games:
East 2 - 2

There was absolutely no need to open your hand and Kan there. Just let it pass and you would have had 3 100% safe tiles to discard if necessary.
Discarding the 4m killed you there. But even if it passed, it would have been a bad discard.
Discard the 1m instead:
- safer discard in general
- the 4m discard left you with a 12m shape, waiting for 3m. discarding 1m instead would have left you with 24m, which is still waiting for 3m. But 24m is a stronger shape because it can turn into 45m if you draw a 5m.

----
South 2

6m was another very risky discard this late in the game. Also, 22m was your only pair, so even if you are still trying to win the game, 1m would have been the correct play there.

e2: Last one
South 4

That 2p Pon left you with a 25p wait. But now you have already used 3 of the 2ps and discarded a 5p (Furiten!) so that wasn't the best idea.

Yeah thanks for all this! Left me with a lot to study/think about.

# ? Jun 13, 2022 19:07

Heath: Apr 30, 2008; 🍂🎃🏞️💦

Yeah basically if you're in last, gently caress it, go for the biggest possible score you can get. If you're winning you just need to end the game.

# ? Jun 13, 2022 21:25

hot date tonight!: Jan 13, 2009; Slippery Tilde

Nighthand posted:

Pinfu is a hand I get accidentally fairly often, and have extreme trouble going for if I'm actually trying to get it (like for an event quest).

Here's a question: if your hand is almost complete and tanyao except your pair is a terminal, would you complete it as-is or push for a simples pair instead? I know this is highly contextual, but I often wonder if I'm over-estimating how difficult it might be to make a hand a bit more valuable with an action like that.

I think barring certain circumstances going for the win is almost always the better choice, especially if you have a good wait and can riichi. Ura Dora are the poo poo.

I'm very much thinking in the context of online play though, not being in last is so important for ranking.

hot date tonight! fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jun 14, 2022

# ? Jun 14, 2022 03:58

Heath: Apr 30, 2008; 🍂🎃🏞️💦

Yeah, in general, winning is better than not winning. The longer you're in a game the more likely you are to get ron'd.

# ? Jun 14, 2022 04:03

Nighthand: Nov 4, 2009; what horror the gas

I think one of the biggest things I need to get better at is knowing when not to slam the riichi button on a bad wait. I've been intentionally delaying it sometimes recently and going from a bad 1-tile wait to a good 3-tile wait, then immediately slamming someone for 12k is so nice.

I'm like one game out from ranking back up to Expert 1 in mahsoul too, so that's nice.

# ? Jun 14, 2022 04:58

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

I have been at adept 1 for so long and reading Riichi Book 1 is not helping because its like half in Japanese and UGH I can't switch between english and japanese terminology as quickly as people that discuss this stuff

# ? Jun 14, 2022 06:14

Nighthand: Nov 4, 2009; what horror the gas

I learned everything I know about mahjong from watching minimattt (three ts) stream on twitch.

# ? Jun 14, 2022 06:55

Feels Villeneuve: Oct 7, 2007; Setter is Better.

Nighthand posted:

I think one of the biggest things I need to get better at is knowing when not to slam the riichi button on a bad wait. I've been intentionally delaying it sometimes recently and going from a bad 1-tile wait to a good 3-tile wait, then immediately slamming someone for 12k is so nice.

I'm like one game out from ranking back up to Expert 1 in mahsoul too, so that's nice.

textbook is that in a normal situation (i.e. not late, and relatively flat score) any valuable hand should be riichi-ed even with bad wait, which basically means that unless it's riichi nomi, go for it. game situations can make this different, though - for instance if it's late in the game and a riichi pinfu hand is extremely unlikely to get you out of 2nd place, it may be worth playing more defensively

e) also hands which are 6 han or more without riichi are usually played closed if possible. exception is if it needs riichi (obviously) or if the wait is such that riichi-ing might actually make it more likely to win (like a guest wind, or a suji trap (e.g. 9p when 6p is in your discards) in more advanced lobbies)

e) check this site out https://justanotherjapanesemahjongblog.blogspot.com/p/riichi-theory.html

Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Jun 14, 2022

# ? Jun 14, 2022 18:23

Feels Villeneuve: Oct 7, 2007; Setter is Better.

also one fun thing i learned from a slideshow recently - i hear a lot of questions sometimes about "locking" the pair, e.g. discarding in a way such that you have one pair that is "obviously" going to be the pair of a pinfu/"standard" hand

generally you should do this when your remaining blocks are two good-wait blocks. so if you have 3455m1145p23789s, this is when you drop the extra 5m and "lock in" 11p as your pair, with 45p 23s as your remaining shapes

# ? Jun 14, 2022 18:37

wocobob: Jan 7, 2014; damages enemies w/ corn

Feels Villeneuve posted:

textbook is that in a normal situation (i.e. not late, and relatively flat score) any valuable hand should be riichi-ed even with bad wait, which basically means that unless it's riichi nomi, go for it. game situations can make this different, though - for instance if it's late in the game and a riichi pinfu hand is extremely unlikely to get you out of 2nd place, it may be worth playing more defensively

e) also hands which are 6 han or more without riichi are usually played closed if possible. exception is if it needs riichi (obviously) or if the wait is such that riichi-ing might actually make it more likely to win (like a guest wind, or a suji trap (e.g. 9p when 6p is in your discards) in more advanced lobbies)

e) check this site out https://justanotherjapanesemahjongblog.blogspot.com/p/riichi-theory.html

what would be a good rule of thumb for what's "late"? like <20 tiles remaining in majsoul or so?

also how often is it a dumb idea to riichi into someone else's riichi? where I'm at right now (hardstuck adept 3 lol) people chase my riichis pretty often, and it seems to work out ok for them, but it instinctively feels pretty reckless vs staying damaten so you can be flexible about folding

# ? Jun 14, 2022 20:10

Feels Villeneuve: Oct 7, 2007; Setter is Better.

wocobob posted:

what would be a good rule of thumb for what's "late"? like <20 tiles remaining in majsoul or so?

also how often is it a dumb idea to riichi into someone else's riichi? where I'm at right now (hardstuck adept 3 lol) people chase my riichis pretty often, and it seems to work out ok for them, but it instinctively feels pretty reckless vs staying damaten so you can be flexible about folding

sorry, by "late" i mean it's like, south 3 where you start to play with more of an eye to securing/improving placing/overhauling the winner

there are rules of thumb for riichi chasing but generally you want to have good value and good wait if you chase. *especially* if you're chasing dealer riichi, where it's usually like a 4 han minimum with good wait, or bad wait mangan (i tend to hard push a guaranteed mangan+ hand if it's tenpai or iishanten with good waits. especially if i have multiple dora, since that makes it less dora that the player in tenpai might have)

Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Jun 14, 2022

# ? Jun 14, 2022 20:57

Nighthand: Nov 4, 2009; what horror the gas

By jove, he's done it! Again!

Maybe this time I won't immediately scrub out.

# ? Jun 14, 2022 21:01

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

ayyyyy congrats Nighthand!

Feels Villeneuve posted:

also how often is it a dumb idea to riichi into someone else's riichi?

Very situational IMO. Major factors at play: value and wait of your hand, your placement, how many tiles it's been since the other riichi, how many other people look like they're ready, whether the dora are visible in the pond or still hiding in hands/walls. i wouldn't push a riichi nomi, but if i had a guaranteed mangan with a decent wait and it's been almost a row of discards since the last riichi? I'll probably throw the stick.

# ? Jun 14, 2022 23:58

dragon enthusiast: Jan 1, 2010

This has graphs for EV of a riichi hand. I believe the digital rule of thumb is to riichi if your hand value beats their EV
https://osamuko.com/paifu-analysis-is-their-riichi-hand-expensive/

# ? Jun 15, 2022 00:13

Feels Villeneuve: Oct 7, 2007; Setter is Better.

i think guaranteed mangan tenpai (or good wait iishanten) is almost always a hard push though there are some situational things to keep in mind (like if your winning tile looks safe as a discard to the player in riichi :ssh:

)

# ? Jun 15, 2022 00:58

Fat Samurai: Feb 16, 2011; To go quickly is foolish. To go slowly is prudent. Not to go; that is wisdom.

I know the answer is a big fat "it depends", but at which point do you call a tile and "lock" your yaku? Specifically, what is a good rule of thumb on wether to chi a tile if a hand looks good for either Chanta or Tanyao?

# ? Jun 15, 2022 07:55

MrBlarney: Nov 8, 2009

Calling for chanta and tanyao works best when you have a closed wait (e.g. 24 waiting on 3) or an edge wait (e.g. 89 waiting on 7), since those are more difficult to complete. As for when to make the leap, I tend to think about three things:

Do I have more than 1 han? - I'd better have some extra value if I'm opening up my hand, since I'm losing the power of riichi. Usually, this will come in the form of a dora tile, or even better, a pair of dora. (Two han is fine if you're going fast, but three han just feels like a nice sweet spot to me for hand value.) I'll only rush a 1-han hand if I'm in the lead, and I feel good about the other two bullet points...
Do I know what my five blocks are? - Since calling eliminates the possibility of irregular hands chiitoitsu and kokushi musou, your hand is locked into a standard five element structure: one pair and four sets. If I don't have a clear definition for how my hand is going to go to completion, I'm more reluctant to call. There are some hands like the honitsu or chinitsu flushes where I'm more apt to call, since the sheer number of tiles in a single suit will often help your hand get to completion -- assuming you can read your waits accurately. (Thank goodness for computer assistance on Mahjong Soul to tell you your waits.) If calling locks in a precise three-element yaku like ikkitsukan or sanshoku, that also feels like a good reason to call. That said, there is still a risk...
Am I close to completion? - Calling reduces the tiles in your hand, and thus the number of possibilities for you to defend with if an opponent declares riichi. If calling gets my hand into a good-wait tenpai, then I'll go ahead. If it's early in the hand (first row of discards) and I'll get into iishanten (two tiles to complete, one tile to tenpai), then I'll still think about making the call. Outside of that, I'm a lot less reluctant to call unless I'm looking at a hand that is truly monstrous and worth that defensive sacrifice.

(Disclaimers about my intermediate skill level and conservative play style apply.)

MrBlarney fucked around with this message at 09:59 on Jun 15, 2022

# ? Jun 15, 2022 09:54

SixteenShells: Sep 30, 2021

Fat Samurai posted:

Specifically, what is a good rule of thumb on wether to chi a tile if a hand looks good for either Chanta or Tanyao?

My experience is that if the call doesn't make me one-away, then i spend way too much time hanging in the wind and nobody takes my hand seriously. Sometimes that works out, like if I have a bunch of dora tucked away, but usually it means someone else beats me to the punch.

# ? Jun 15, 2022 23:28

KICK BAMA KICK: Mar 2, 2009

Saw a Thirteen Orphans on MJS this afternoon, don't think it's the first Yakuman I've seen in one of my games but it's definitely the most rare. Was actually the dealer in East 1 so that was it.

Only remember one shot at one of my own, a suuankou that didn't come in.

# ? Jun 22, 2022 22:11

Nighthand: Nov 4, 2009; what horror the gas

I've seen a handful of them but the closest I've come was Little Dragons a while back, and Three Quads just the other day.

# ? Jun 22, 2022 22:53

dragon enthusiast: Jan 1, 2010

3 quads is more rare than several yakuman lol

# ? Jun 22, 2022 23:09

Feels Villeneuve: Oct 7, 2007; Setter is Better.

had someone pull a double of small winds and tsuuiisou which was fun to see

won by ron too because fourth place was in tenpai with a shitload of dora and was just going to discard anything no matter how dangerous

# ? Jun 22, 2022 23:22

MatchaZed: Feb 14, 2010; We Can Do It!

13 Orphans is pretty common in sanma

# ? Jun 23, 2022 01:18

Schwarzwald: Jul 27, 2004; Don't Blink

Sanma is the place to be for yakuman in general.

# ? Jun 23, 2022 01:27

KICK BAMA KICK: Mar 2, 2009

I assume it's that losing 2-8 man iirc? makes everything else easier to draw?

# ? Jun 23, 2022 01:51

Can Of Worms: Sep 4, 2011; That's not how the Triangle Attack works...

Sanma also has Kita (you set aside North tiles to draw extra tiles) which automatically add 1 han per North tile set aside, and combined with the fact that you only have two suits, it's much easier to reach kazoe yakuman.

# ? Jun 23, 2022 04:42