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i fly airplanes posted:This would be a mischaracterization, unless you can explain a bit more. 'Core allies' is perhaps overstating the point the relationship between Mexico and the US is characterized by Mexico constantly having to look across the border at the entity that, historically, has come down to militarily dominate them any time they start feeling rowdy, and say 'you're not going to do that again this year, right?' Mexico is a good friend to America in the same way Finland is a good friend to Russia: they are stuck living next door to the belligerent drunk, and so they do what they can to make sure when he's feeling punchy his ire doesn't get aimed at them. this includes a lot of 'whatever you say, sir's through forced smiles. hilariously, both entertained a long shot partnership with the Germans to try to get the big guy off their backs, just one world war apart.
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Jun 15, 2022 18:32
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:'Core allies' is perhaps overstating the point I would not call it Finlandization by a long shot, you're totally wrong there. And Finland is not a good friend to Russia: have you not watched the news recently where Finland and Sweden have applied to join NATO?
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Jun 16, 2022 01:58
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In regards to Mexico, another interesting episode from El Hilo: The episode talks about the rise of independent Facebook groups covering cartel violence in particular in Tijuana, but these groups aren't just concerned citizens. In fact, El Hilo alleges that these groups act as a tool of mass media to support the cartels, by justifying the acts of violence they commit and blaming the victims. Even worse, these groups single out journalists who put the cartels in a bad light, smear them, and put a target on their back to be killed. What I want to argue here is that this shows how the cartels are effectively their own reactionary class, owning certain means of production, subverting local government and law enforcement, and utilizing a form of mass media to justify and protect their existence. The government at the national level has some means to protect journalists, like providing them with escorts and a safety net, but it's really not enough. Essentially what we are seeing are certain parts of Mexico become personal fiefdoms of cartels outside the frameworks of the liberal capitalist system (which by no means qualifies as an improvement). America Inc. fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Jun 16, 2022 |
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Jun 16, 2022 02:08
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quarantinethepast posted:In regards to Mexico, another interesting episode from El Hilo: Yes, the drug cartels have significant control in various poorer Mexican states and operate more akin to warlords, as we witness the breakdown of the state and institutions. Journalists are a real target: https://cpj.org/americas/mexico/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_and_media_workers_killed_in_Mexico I do not understand why you are trying to frame things in terms of means of production and liberal capitalism here. This is a federal government unable to control swathes of its own territory because of various complex reasons that have led to the cartels being able to gain power and remain in power. EDIT: Also, while criticism against the Mexican federal government is justified for ignoring the violence and targeting of journalists, you do realize that the current President is an elected populist leftist? i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Jun 16, 2022 |
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Jun 16, 2022 02:21
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i fly airplanes posted:I do not understand why you are trying to frame things in terms of means of production and liberal capitalism here. This is a federal government unable to control swathes of its own territory because of various complex reasons that have led to the cartels being able to gain power and remain in power. I'm trying to frame things in a Marxist way, that's the way I perceive the situation. I think there are other ways to frame it as well that are useful, and probably if I wanted to try to explain the situation to the average person I would avoid using Marxist language right off the bat. quote:EDIT: Also, while criticism against the Mexican federal government is justified for ignoring the violence and targeting of journalists, you do realize that the current President is an elected populist leftist? Yes, although I would say AMLO is more like a social democrat. He's not going to be overthrowing the capitalist system anytime soon. Between the more aggressive stance his predecessors took and AMLO's more hands-off approach it doesn't seem like either is really solving the problem at the root. IMO (as someone who is not Mexican) I think the best approach would probably be a mixture of ramping up social programs to reintegrate impoverished areas back into the country as a whole and getting aggressive and going after corrupt officials and cartels with military force. These cartels are, essentially, fascists. America Inc. fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Jun 16, 2022 |
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Jun 16, 2022 02:54
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i fly airplanes posted:Yes, the drug cartels have significant control in various poorer Mexican states and operate more akin to warlords, as we witness the breakdown of the state and institutions. Journalists are a real target: https://cpj.org/americas/mexico/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_and_media_workers_killed_in_Mexico 2. Yeah I did.
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Jun 16, 2022 02:56
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i fly airplanes posted:This would be a mischaracterization, unless you can explain a bit more. Obviously Finland is a small prosperous country, while Mexico is a large very unequal one, but both have a 200+ year history trying to deal with a much more powerful, aggressive and capricious empire next door. And what I was more generally thinking was: for European leftists, opposition to American imperialism is a standard confession of faith, our sympathies have always been with Latin America, and Cuba, Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua etc etc are all familiar stories to us. So many of us have been quite astonished to see leftists world over equivocating, defending Russia and going full realpolitik after the war broke out. When the US invaded Iraq (to take the most obvious example), only spineless centrists said things like "we shouldn't necessarily provoke the US, there's no benefit in taking sides for us, both sides are bad". So in Finland it makes a lot of us wonder, if it was us instead of Ukraine, would these people be saying "look at how they treat the Roma, remember they allied with the Nazis, it's a racist country, and the welfare state was built on brutal extractivism" - all things that are true, but completely pointless compared to what the monstrous regime in Russia is doing
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Jun 16, 2022 08:17
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Ras Het posted:Obviously Finland is a small prosperous country, while Mexico is a large very unequal one, but both have a 200+ year history trying to deal with a much more powerful, aggressive and capricious empire next door. And what I was more generally thinking was: for European leftists, opposition to American imperialism is a standard confession of faith, our sympathies have always been with Latin America, and Cuba, Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua etc etc are all familiar stories to us. So many of us have been quite astonished to see leftists world over equivocating, defending Russia and going full realpolitik after the war broke out. When the US invaded Iraq (to take the most obvious example), only spineless centrists said things like "we shouldn't necessarily provoke the US, there's no benefit in taking sides for us, both sides are bad". So in Finland it makes a lot of us wonder, if it was us instead of Ukraine, would these people be saying "look at how they treat the Roma, remember they allied with the Nazis, it's a racist country, and the welfare state was built on brutal extractivism" - all things that are true, but completely pointless compared to what the monstrous regime in Russia is doing This, basically. It's like, it's pretty obvious how a lot of these arguments are false equivalencies and a lot of them cannot be extrapolated or used to justify the grievousness of the invasion. It's also the exact tactic that conservatives use which makes it even more astounding to hear, particularly with this like, performative leftism poo poo. They know they're grasping at straws and having to ignore the existence of way more Nazis and right wing radicals in Russia, on top of, you know, Russia being a belligerent fascist state invading a democratic nation, which was attempting to de-escalate conflict peacefully the entire time, for no god drat reason whatsoever. It's the obvious inconsistency that bothers me. Saddam killed like a quarter million of his own citizens and ran a violently despotic government. Noriega tortured and killed anti-colonialist guerillas and was involved with the CIA and the Medellín cartel. The Taliban subjugate women (this one is in present tense, unfortunately), kill religious minorities and generally established a horrendously regressive and brutal theocracy. Do you see a single one of the American leftists that pop around this thread ever saying anything about "both sides being bad" for the invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan or Panama? They pretty universally say the US was in the wrong because the US has no business being the world's police. Which is correct, mind you, that's absolutely a valid posture to have, but I don't understand how the idea of being radically anti-imperialist can somehow coexist in the same brain that justifies the invasion of Ukraine as being "fash-on-fash" violence or anything like that. This is what I'm asking from the people who consider themselves anti-imperalist to do. It's a very simple test. If you can justify some imperialist action, where some big country attempts to seize by force what belongs to a much smaller one, so long as it's not the US doing it, then you don't hold anti-imperialist views, you just don't like the empire that's at the top.
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Jun 16, 2022 09:49
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We aren't defending Russia, we are pointing out the problem that the west gets a free pass for their imperialism. Suddenly the US, France, NATO etc. is "good" when it opposes the other imperialist powers. Ignoring that if the US did the same as Russia no sanctions or consequences would be mentioned. Let us stop Russia from invading and killing, but not while standing next to the other bloody states that act the same. Punish all aggression equally and you would have an argument.
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Jun 16, 2022 10:11
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Party In My Diapee posted:We aren't defending Russia, we are pointing out the problem that the west gets a free pass for their imperialism. Suddenly the US, France, NATO etc. is "good" when it opposes the other imperialist powers. Ignoring that if the US did the same as Russia no sanctions or consequences would be mentioned. Let us stop Russia from invading and killing, but not while standing next to the other bloody states that act the same. Punish all aggression equally and you would have an argument. But that's a position of cruel indifference towards the Ukrainians (and the Russians fwiw). The logic is that because the west has been monstrous towards the Iraqis, as we undeniably have been, the Ukrainians deserve an equally monstrous fate. That does not appear principled or ethically consistent to me, but like amoral point-scoring
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Jun 16, 2022 10:25
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Party In My Diapee posted:We aren't defending Russia, we are pointing out the problem that the west gets a free pass for their imperialism. Suddenly the US, France, NATO etc. is "good" when it opposes the other imperialist powers. Ignoring that if the US did the same as Russia no sanctions or consequences would be mentioned. Let us stop Russia from invading and killing, but not while standing next to the other bloody states that act the same. Punish all aggression equally and you would have an argument. That was not what was being said in the thread. I am specifically talking about the intention, in this thread, to portray it as a "both sides" issue when it is clearly imperialist aggression. You can absolutely criticize all imperialist action and it is indeed unfair for the US to get a free pass, and you can call them out on their hypocrisy, but the horseshit revisionism is what I'm not going to buy.
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Jun 16, 2022 10:30
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The Mexican president claims to be anti-imperialist, but the USA is saying jump and he isn't asking "how high? " Curious! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 16, 2022 11:02
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Ras Het posted:Obviously Finland is a small prosperous country, while Mexico is a large very unequal one, but both have a 200+ year history trying to deal with a much more powerful, aggressive and capricious empire next door. And what I was more generally thinking was: for European leftists, opposition to American imperialism is a standard confession of faith, our sympathies have always been with Latin America, and Cuba, Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua etc etc are all familiar stories to us. So many of us have been quite astonished to see leftists world over equivocating, defending Russia and going full realpolitik after the war broke out. When the US invaded Iraq (to take the most obvious example), only spineless centrists said things like "we shouldn't necessarily provoke the US, there's no benefit in taking sides for us, both sides are bad". So in Finland it makes a lot of us wonder, if it was us instead of Ukraine, would these people be saying "look at how they treat the Roma, remember they allied with the Nazis, it's a racist country, and the welfare state was built on brutal extractivism" - all things that are true, but completely pointless compared to what the monstrous regime in Russia is doing Thank you for providing your insight. I agree with everything you have said. quarantinethepast posted:Yes, although I would say AMLO is more like a social democrat. He's not going to be overthrowing the capitalist system anytime soon. Between the more aggressive stance his predecessors took and AMLO's more hands-off approach it doesn't seem like either is really solving the problem at the root. IMO (as someone who is not Mexican) I think the best approach would probably be a mixture of ramping up social programs to reintegrate impoverished areas back into the country as a whole and getting aggressive and going after corrupt officials and cartels with military force. These cartels are, essentially, fascists. if AMLO is a social democrat, why is he violating basic democratic norms? Look at how he's treated journalists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mt6AwX9vIM Or academics: https://www.ft.com/content/2e8fdbce-9fa3-4d1c-b9b3-f53dbf4dcb42 He is no defender of journalists -- and neither are the cartels. i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Jun 16, 2022 |
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Jun 16, 2022 11:05
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VitalSigns posted:The Mexican president claims to be anti-imperialist, but the USA is saying jump and he isn't asking "how high? " Curious! Why are you only interested in the USA and not Ukraine?
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Jun 16, 2022 11:25
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I feel like the reality of the matter is that leftists are reluctant to buy into pro-war jingoism because Ukraine itself is a very unsavory hero; numerous autonomous nazi militias, a president who has openly aspired to be "Big Israel", political strife inspired by the violent coup of a state leader because neither he nor East Ukraine were sufficiently pro-EU, the increasing radicalization of its citizens & veneration of heinous war criminals, the disavowal of its communist past, and the abhorrent dichotomy in treatment between Seeing as so much of South America's left is defined both by its relation to socialism & its resistance to western desires, it doesn't really surprise me that they're not tripping over themselves to defend Ukraine. Just as neither Africa nor the Middle East are. If this, say, took place in a dimension where Socialist & Communist militias led the vanguard, in which the president compared his country to Palestine, in which West Ukraine took pride in its red history, then you'd see many more leftists change their tune from "the war needs to end as soon as possible to avoid starving out the Middle East and Africa" to "we must do everything we can to protect Ukraine from the Russian invaders". Personally, I'd likely still side with wanting the war to end as soon as possible to mitigate damage to Africa and the Middle East, even if that meant Russia claimed more territory. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Jun 16, 2022 |
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Jun 16, 2022 11:49
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Since when did Ukraine become a Latin American country, did I miss some news about a government-in-exile being formed in Mexico City? Why are you guys arguing about Ukraine and what do you expect Latin American countries, which have their own problems, to do about it anyway? Isn't the US dealing enough arms for the whole hemisphere, do the other countries even have the domestic arms industries to outweigh what America is already doing in the first place, I don't really get what's being demanded here
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Jun 16, 2022 11:52
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Ras Het posted:And what I was more generally thinking was: for European leftists, opposition to American imperialism is a standard confession of faith, our sympathies have always been with Latin America, and Cuba, Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua etc etc are all familiar stories to us. Thats cool and all but you know is empty. Anyone can say “USA bad! boo!” from anywhere. It does nothing. I can also condemn Russia from my porch here and that also does nothing When USA does its imperialism, europe states officially stands with them. Nobody will take no action or make no pressure for them to stop or try to get them sanctioned, and americans aren’t going to be demonized the way russians are being right now. And often europe takes part in the american imperialisms too, even with leftists in power In any case, the USA is the big empire, the hegemony. Russia is a failed empire trying a come back, and “the West” is having none of it. Is not like the "free world" is so rilled up just because suddenly everyone cares about international law and protecting democracy all that much. Its "realpolitik" too. Also for us, USA is the big guy in the north that have us in this relation of fear and dependency, since almost ever, always having us in a leash, with cheap treats in one hand and a big stick in the other. And getting away from that requires making allies with USA rivals, like China, Iran, and Russia, even if they aren’t perfect. In case of AMLO, by condemning Russia he upsets an important partner and for what? To please the USA, because that’s surely ain’t going to save any Ukrainians. Is not the same as you going “yeah that’s bad” in your living room when the USA is bombing arabs again or installed another far-right dictatorship in latin america. That has no consequence edit: I know that sounds cold and realpolitiky, but a country is not a person that can just post "#IStandWithUkraine" and go on with its life edit 2: vvvvv so he even condemned them Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Jun 16, 2022 |
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Jun 16, 2022 11:54
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SlothfulCobra posted:It's just extremely weird for people (like the president of Mexico) to declare themselves "anti-imperialist" but shrug and refuse to see wrongdoing with more obvious imperialist conquest. It highlights a lot of hyperbole when there's literal examples hanging around in the news and being ignored. Like it seems common to call the US embargo of Cuba a "blockade", when Russia is doing a very literal blockade by blocking Ukraine's ports with warships and seamines. It's even weirder in the context that this isn't like during the Cold War when the world was organizing into power blocs, Russia hasn't put time or money into cultivating its international relations beyond business purposes like they did as the Soviet Union. There's no pragmatic side to throwing in with Russia. I clicked through to the article linked in your tweet (something no one else seems to have bothered to do) and it said this Al Jazeera posted:Mexico has voted at the United Nations to condemn the invasion, but refused to impose sanctions on Russia. It sounds like he's just saying the sanctions are doing more harm than good, something some of Biden's own officials have also started to admit. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Jun 16, 2022 |
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Jun 16, 2022 12:08
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Neurolimal posted:If this, say, took place in a dimension where Socialist & Communist militias led the vanguard, in which the president compared his country to Palestine, in which West Ukraine took pride in its red history, then you'd see many more leftists change their tune from "the war needs to end as soon as possible to avoid starving out the Middle East and Africa" to "we must do everything we can to protect Ukraine from the Russian invaders". Hilariously you quite succinctly explained why a lot of the criticism that I hear is from performative leftists with this. If that were the case, nothing on the ground would have actually changed, you'd still have fascist Russia invading a country and wantonly murdering civilians for a pre WWII style land-grab, but now all of a sudden the optics of decrying such a thing are much better. We all get to keep our hammers and sickles and our commie cred, while supporting the good guys! This attitude shows an absolute, complete disregard to the realities of today's world. It's LARPing as a Cold War era Marxist Leninist, and in its place somehow believing that the modern Russia is in any form an actual continuation of the Soviet Union. It is ignoring all the steps Ukraine took to attempt to appease Russia, all the land they've already ceded, the anti-corruption efforts, and I guess most importantly, the constant affirmations that they don't want to be in Russia's sphere of influence. Their right to self determination apparently doesn't loving matter if they don't fly the right colors. It's an idiotic posture. Elias_Maluco posted:In case of AMLO, by condemning Russia he upsets an important partner and for what? To please the USA, because that’s surely ain’t going to save any Ukrainians. Is not the same as you going “yeah that’s bad” in your living room when the USA is bombing arabs again or installed another far-right dictatorship in latin america. That has no consequence This would track if it weren't for the fact that Russia's main export to Mexico is armaments. Which I think you'd agree, is probably something they can curtail, as Russia is their 42nd largest trade partner.
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Jun 16, 2022 12:21
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Elias_Maluco posted:Thats cool and all but you know is empty. Anyone can say “USA bad! boo!” from anywhere. It does nothing. I can also condemn Russia from my porch here and that also does nothing Of course, but that's sort of the point - why do a lot of leftists draw all these hedges and brackets and ifs and buts around Russian imperialism, when nothing is actually at stake for them? I know why politicians do it, but why do anonymous internet posters engage in this sort of diplomatic whitewashing? Even if we take a purely pragmatic global view and forget about the Ukrainians specifically, it's Russia who have created the food and energy price spike by starting a war. Or, from an anti-war socialist point of view, it's Russia who have provoked a renewed militarisation in Europe and a new wave of NATO expansion. It's not even very sound realpolitik to think that could've been avoided
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Jun 16, 2022 12:30
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fnox posted:This would track if it weren't for the fact that Russia's main export to Mexico is armaments. Which I think you'd agree, is probably something they can curtail, as Russia is their 42nd largest trade partner. Sure they can. But for what? Europe and the USA can sanction Russia just fine without Mexico help. Also I admit I dont know much Mexico relations with Russia. But as a general rule, if you want to diminish the power that the global hegemony has over you, you need friends outside their domain Ras Het posted:Of course, but that's sort of the point - why do a lot of leftists draw all these hedges and brackets and ifs and buts around Russian imperialism, when nothing is actually at stake for them? I know why politicians do it, but why do anonymous internet posters engage in this sort of diplomatic whitewashing? Even if we take a purely pragmatic global view and forget about the Ukrainians specifically, it's Russia who have created the food and energy price spike by starting a war. Or, from an anti-war socialist point of view, it's Russia who have provoked a renewed militarisation in Europe and a new wave of NATO expansion. It's not even very sound realpolitik to think that could've been avoided Well, some is surely the "URSS factor": many on the left still kinda sees Russia as the URSS, so "one of us", even though they have been a a far-right oligarchy for a long time Also, and now talking for myself, I do get a little annoyed to see the whole rich world and the whole mainstream press talk about this invasion as it was some uniquely abhorrent event by this uniquely evil empire, when the USA has being doing this poo poo for over a century and keeps doing it and all they get for it are weak and empty condemnations at best. And than also what Ukraine become in brazilan politics long before the war (a far-right, anti-leftist symbol), even though I know regular ukranians have no fault in that, I admit it does makes harder for me to sympathize edit: not saying the above is fair or moral or anything, but its how I feel Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Jun 16, 2022 |
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Jun 16, 2022 12:31
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Neurolimal posted:If this, say, took place in a dimension where Socialist & Communist militias led the vanguard, in which the president compared his country to Palestine, in which West Ukraine took pride in its red history, then you'd see many more leftists change their tune from "the war needs to end as soon as possible to avoid starving out the Middle East and Africa" to "we must do everything we can to protect Ukraine from the Russian invaders". To do otherwise is to partake in the same realpolitik that you accuse imperialists of doing.
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Jun 16, 2022 13:37
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Ras Het posted:Of course, but that's sort of the point - why do a lot of leftists draw all these hedges and brackets and ifs and buts around Russian imperialism, when nothing is actually at stake for them? I know why politicians do it, but why do anonymous internet posters engage in this sort of diplomatic whitewashing? Even if we take a purely pragmatic global view and forget about the Ukrainians specifically, it's Russia who have created the food and energy price spike by starting a war. Or, from an anti-war socialist point of view, it's Russia who have provoked a renewed militarisation in Europe and a new wave of NATO expansion. It's not even very sound realpolitik to think that could've been avoided Because when they mean anti-imperialism they do mean anti-US/Canada/European Imperialism. This is part a historical result of left movements in the West being anti-establishment for decades and decrying the abuses of their own countries, so they're easy marks for offering the benefit of doubt to the enemies of the establishment they have rallied against for a long time. In Latin America there's that, added to the fact that it is a region that has historically suffered from US/EU influence and where governments and people can't trust those to be good faith partners. A lot of sovereign states have sought partnership with countries opposed or unaligned to the West in order to nurture some economic/political independence and so they simply have closer ties to Russia that they are not eager to sacrifice in what would be a symbolic gesture. In terms of the activist Left in LatAm, they are likewise easy marks to offer the benefit of doubt to enemies of the West for those same historical reasons and also some class warfare, as a lot of upper class people in the region identify as Europeans or North Americans rather than their own countries, so giving the finger to the geopolitical projects of the EU and US is mostly giving the finger to the ruling class of their own country. It is a very rude summary, I know. For what's worth, I personally think Putin should be hanged in the Hague.
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Jun 16, 2022 13:37
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I feel that often people trying to push back against perceived American bias end up overcorrecting and sometimes even haphazardly inventing new US crimes to create equivalency or make the US responsible for all the world's ills. Or at least, they'll shrug and say america's just as bad or worse without providing much of an argument as to why, or why that's even relevance. I know that Ukraine wasn't a healthy democracy before the current war. There was the other war, the Russian puppet that was overthrown, and there's a whole lot of videos on youtube of literal fights breaking out in Ukraine's parliament, but Russia didn't even bother trying to justify their invasion beyond Putin stating that Ukraine has no right to independence, so there's no pretense to anything about the war being Ukraine's fault, and that generated a huge wave of sympathy across the world that some people have rightly pointed out outweighs the usual sympathy the US and Europe have for "brown-er" places with polical unrest, but it also outweighs the amount of sympathy people had for Ukraine during its 2014 war that Russia had the fig leaf of just supporting secessionists. I think that's mostly because of the sheer clarity of this just being a war of conquest rather than a thorny civil war or coup. I'm actually hopeful that the current sanctions that are ferreting out a lot of Russian oligarch money will lead to more firm international financial scrutiny on other criminals, businessmen, and autocrats hiding away money from taxes and the people they stole it from, and I think other countries would benefit from criminals having less hiding spots. VitalSigns posted:Did the bolded even happen? The impression I got was that Mexico's government ended up condemning Russia in spite of AMLO, seeing as how he was the top guy in Mexico having the country drag its heels, and continues to speak out apparently against measures to help Ukraine and punish the Russian government. Brookings Institute posted:
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Jun 16, 2022 20:28
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fnox posted:Hilariously you quite succinctly explained why a lot of the criticism that I hear is from performative leftists with this. If that were the case, nothing on the ground would have actually changed, you'd still have fascist Russia invading a country and wantonly murdering civilians for a pre WWII style land-grab, but now all of a sudden the optics of decrying such a thing are much better. We all get to keep our hammers and sickles and our commie cred, while supporting the good guys! Of course it would change what was occurring on the ground if Ukraine was a Marxist-Leninist state, Russia would be getting supplies from the US and Europe and everyone would be hand-wringing over Ukrainian crimes against WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Jun 17, 2022 |
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Jun 17, 2022 08:11
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Of course it would change what was occurring on the ground if Ukraine was a Marxist-Leninist state, Russia would be getting supplies from the US and Europe and everyone would be hand-wringing over Ukrainian crimes against Think about that sentence just like, a couple seconds longer and you'll see the problem with it.
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Jun 17, 2022 08:28
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If you somehow twisted that into a defence of Russia's invasion in your head, that's on you.
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Jun 17, 2022 08:43
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Please don't talk about Ukraine/Russia here please
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Jun 17, 2022 09:05
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It made sense we were talking about the war in relation to latin america, but yeah, it already went ahead of that https://twitter.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1537812324651769856/photo/4
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Jun 17, 2022 17:39
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Elias_Maluco posted:It made sense we were talking about the war in relation to latin america, but yeah, it already went ahead of that https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-election-stakes-in-colombia-gustavo-petro-rodolfo-hernandez-11655417357 great framing in this editorial
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Jun 17, 2022 18:06
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i say swears online posted:https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-election-stakes-in-colombia-gustavo-petro-rodolfo-hernandez-11655417357 I was about to say. Curious to see how things go down in Colombia.
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Jun 17, 2022 22:55
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i say swears online posted:https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-election-stakes-in-colombia-gustavo-petro-rodolfo-hernandez-11655417357 The best possible advice: take the stance the Economist rejects.
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Jun 18, 2022 06:18
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Elias_Maluco posted:It made sense we were talking about the war in relation to latin america, but yeah, it already went ahead of that Linking Mint Press News? Seriously? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MintPress_News Nucleic Acids posted:The best possible advice: take the stance the Economist rejects. Given how anti-Trump The Economist was, I'm not sure this is even a good generalization. i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Jun 19, 2022 |
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Jun 19, 2022 21:09
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i fly airplanes posted:Linking Mint Press News? Seriously? You may find a pattern with the sources and the posters. It’s why it’s so hard to talk about Latin America in this forum, half the time you have to argue against just full blown propaganda and apparently calling it out doesn’t matter. Refer only to Telesur, Grayzone or MintPress, obviously all other news source are biased. I know the mod note was to stop talking about Ukraine, but without that specific angle, will anybody ever bring up that all these sources have been financed by Russian money? Like is that ever going to be discussed? It’s not like leftist sources which aren’t financed by Russia don’t exist, I linked one when talking about socialist criticism of Maduro, but how are we not considering them to be compromised right now?
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Jun 19, 2022 23:43
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Gustavo Petro has been elected as Colombia's first leftist president.
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Jun 20, 2022 04:53
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He's gonna have a hard time, I reckon.
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Jun 20, 2022 07:44
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fnox posted:He's gonna have a hard time, I reckon. Not for long.
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Jun 20, 2022 07:54
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i fly airplanes posted:Linking Mint Press News? Seriously? I didint noticed it was them, and it was just a joke/argument about the economist. Anyway I dont think that tweet contains anything controversial fnox posted:You may find a pattern with the sources and the posters. It’s why it’s so hard to talk about Latin America in this forum, half the time you have to argue against just full blown propaganda and apparently calling it out doesn’t matter. Refer only to Telesur, Grayzone or MintPress, obviously all other news source are biased. Yeah sometimes they might be right about latan stuff. Sometimes even CNN might be right too. Most media is biased one way or the other Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 11:22 on Jun 20, 2022 |
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Jun 20, 2022 11:19
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https://www.mintpressnews.com/debunking-mistruths-venezuela-humanitarian-aid-showdown/255712/ https://thegrayzone.com/2019/02/24/burning-aid-colombia-venezuela-bridge/ Mintpress and gray zone were some of the few media reporting factually on those USAid trucks America tried force into Venuezula back in '19, when all the big name western media was claiming Venuezula set the trucks of innocent aid on fire. You may not like them because they go against the American narrative but that doesn't mean they tell lies all the time.
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Jun 20, 2022 11:41
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Marenghi posted:https://www.mintpressnews.com/debunking-mistruths-venezuela-humanitarian-aid-showdown/255712/ Gee I wonder what else do they report about Venezuela. I also love how apparently this is the big huge gotcha moment for American intervention in your mind, without the even remote consideration of how: A) Maduro was denying all forms of humanitarian aid despite a growing humanitarian crisis and B) The crisis subsequently getting so severe that 7 loving million Venezuelans fled into other Latin American countries a big chunk of them right along the Colombian border, meaning none of it was really made up US propaganda now was it? C) Maduro is still to this day blocking access to aid organizations and workers as per the UN D) Venezuela still receives a shitload of humanitarian aid due to the extent of the economic crisis. Maduro just had to silently accept it in order to keep that propaganda line open. I know you're gonna just blame sanctions immediately, shutting down any possible argumentation on how Maduro's own policies could've caused it, because America! And also how Venezuela is not socialism except when it is convenient to say it is. I mean should I start going after the sort of obvious lies or all the other poo poo they're not talking about in terms of Venezuela like the privatizations, the land seizures and violence indigenous peoples face or the fact that according to official figures 19000 people have been killed by security forces for "resistance to authority"? How about the FAES torturing civilians to establish a reign of fear in the barriadas of the country to keep anyone from protesting? gently caress, how about Maduro officially promoting tinctures of thyme oil as the officially approved cure for COVID-19? Can we even get the funny part of the horrible depressing reality of modern Venezuela?
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Jun 20, 2022 12:33
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