cat botherer posted:

That's one city planner's opinion, with one background, who mostly thinks about one environment. It's still far from definitive. How do you explain the ubiquity of conversions in so many cities? There's even conversions from industrial spaces in some areas - its literally the entire stereotype of "artists lofts" that yuppies now live in.

Papercut posted:

Warehouse industrial conversions tend to be a LOT simpler because it's a big empty box usually with utilities sized for serious industrial use, meaning they're oversized compared to residential uses (the opposite of office -> residential). Also they are usually not in the hearts of urban centers where construction is significantly more difficult.

This is why one of Vox's earlier posts mentioned basically gutting an office for this type of conversion. The only things that tend to be useful are the bare structure of the building, and possibly elevators/stairways. In a lot of cases you're going to run into situations where even gutting things down to the structure turns into a square hole/round peg situation where it's cheaper to just take everything down and start from scratch. Especially when that lets you reuse design elements a lot more easily than trying to work with every disparate building structure.

Papercut posted:

Converting office buildings in NYC is probably even more difficult than in less dense areas because the infrastructure is much older and much more constrained. The building codes for residential and office are vastly different, and the design approach in terms of mech/plumb/elec is vastly different.

Even renovating existing old office space for *office* use can be hugely challenging, because in 20 years the user profile of a typical office changes so much. And a 20-year-old office building is basically brand new; a place like NYC or any other big city will have many buildings that are 50+ years old.

source: I'm a licensed engineer with 20+ years of building design experience, including renovating high rises in urban areas.

PT6A posted:

It strikes me that living in an office tower that was not extensively retrofitted to be suitable for long-term residential use would not be particularly fun, but I do think it would be preferable to sleeping rough or living in your car or living out of a motel room/SRO. It's not a long-term solution to the housing crisis, but it could fix some of the problems people are having right now as we work on long-term solutions.

Herstory Begins Now posted:

did you even read the post?

I'd be amazed if you could get 90 minutes of uncensored/uncut bodycam footage from small town texas cops under any circumstances that wasn't full of a bunch of horrible cop poo poo. And that's before getting into the 90 minutes of footage where they stand around doing nothing while someone is killing brown kids. I doubt we'll ever see much of that footage, but I would bet every last cent that there is some godawful stuff in there beyond even the basic damning stuff we know is in there.

PT6A posted:

It strikes me that living in an office tower that was not extensively retrofitted to be suitable for long-term residential use would not be particularly fun, but I do think it would be preferable to sleeping rough or living in your car or living out of a motel room/SRO. It's not a long-term solution to the housing crisis, but it could fix some of the problems people are having right now as we work on long-term solutions.

Oracle posted:

This is a bit of bullshit, because EVERYONE in that drat town is brown, minus the mayor/city council. Its like 70% Latino and that includes the cops, some of whose kids and wives were in that building. The wife of one was one of the teachers shot and he got to talk to her bleeding out and dying on the phone. Even he wasn't allowed to go in.

idiotsavant posted:

Yeah, I've worked as an operating engineer in high rises for about 15 years and there is absolutely nothing simple, easy, or efficient about converting a high-rise office building to residential use. The fundamental nature of the building - as it was built, for the purpose it was built - makes it difficult.

If anything it's similar to stuff like repurposing big-box malls for residential/office use, or using shipping containers for construction - it sounds convenient and easy, and then you look at the costs and effort involved in making somewhat specifically designed things work in ways they were not designed to, and all your efficiency & energy savings go right out the window.

I'm sure papercut has a much firmer idea of numbers involved, but there isn't much cost difference in making an office high-rise minimally suitable for residential use and making it actually pleasant to live in, and neither is particularly cheap.

Heck Yes! Loam! posted:

Don't worry the capital police know a threat when they see one

https://twitter.com/pdmcleod/status/1537942472612933633

https://twitter.com/ChadPergram/status/1537932055182315520

this should be fun to see play out.

Epic High Five posted:

Turn the commercial space into big bunk houses, brand it as a modern efficient units with an emphasis on collaboration and a bunch of other buzzwords, sell bunks at a premium to those tech sector weirdos who build their entire living patterns around optimizing their productivity, and then give normal people all their old housing. You don't need stuff like lots of bathrooms or a kitchen because they are all taking highly efficient 2 minute showers and drinking only Soylent

I hope they read their briefings and know better than to ask his opinion about anything

Herstory Begins Now posted:

Ironically this is basically why building codes mandate a bunch of livability stuff: otherwise dirtbags will absolutely build human habitation boxes like that and people will live in them and get all kinds of hosed up by it because that just is not how humans are meant to live. Then the costs of that spill back out onto society because now there are literally buildings exacerbating social disorders and mental health issues and they will continue to do that until someone finally tears them down

Epic High Five posted:

Yeah there's a reason why they're associated with cults and boot camp. Maybe the center of each floor between the ground and top floor could be taken out and replaced with a huge tree that the inhabitants of each level build a community of worship and fellowship around.

edit - wait a second I just made a Dark Souls level

Rappaport posted:

Just mimick that insane dormitory designed by some crack-pot billionaire who wanted "efficiency".



How long before someone cracks and murders everyone in their pod? It could be a game show!

FlamingLiberal posted:

I’m increasingly convinced that it’s option 1

They circled the wagon incredibly quick after it came out that they just sat outside for 75 minutes.

We had police incompetence in the Parkland shooting as well, but the cops there at no point did anything like the Uvalde cops in terms of trying to just cover it all up and say nothing.

Epic High Five posted:

Yeah there's a reason why they're associated with cults and boot camp. Maybe the center of each floor between the ground and top floor could be taken out and replaced with a huge tree that the inhabitants of each level build a community of worship and fellowship around.

edit - wait a second I just made a Dark Souls level

quote:

During the worst years of Cabrini-Green's problems, vandalism increased substantially. Gang members and miscreants covered interior walls with graffiti and damaged doors, windows, and elevators. Rat and cockroach infestations were commonplace, rotting garbage stacked up in clogged trash chutes (it once piled up to the 15th floor), and basic utilities (water, electricity, etc.) often malfunctioned and were left in disrepair.

On the exterior, boarded-up windows, burned-out areas of the façade, and pavement instead of green space—all in the name of economizing on maintenance—created an atmosphere of decay and government neglect. The balconies were fenced in to prevent residents from emptying garbage cans into the yard, and from falling or being thrown to their deaths. This created the appearance of a large prison tier, or of animal cages, which further enraged community leaders of the residents.

Epic High Five posted:

Hadn't that actually been deployed at other campuses before this and the students actually liked it? I mean 2 bathrooms per 8 dorms and a kitchen of sorts probably ain't bad ratios and not having to share rooms doesn't sound too bad compared to alternatives. Of course it may have just been that the building wasn't 150 years old like other campus options. It even comes with a beer pong table!

Yinlock posted:

I'm a freak who wouldn't really mind a smushed room, but otoh it'd definitely make someone snap eventually

cat botherer posted:

I have a hard time believing it is more expensive to convert office space into residential than raze and rebuild, except in outlier cases. Cost versus rebuild is the relevant metric - yes, you have to redo a bunch of plumbing & electric, but that's no different from ordinary renovations. In a new build, you still have to do all of that, but also the foundation, frame, siding, etc.

This already happens all the time: Look at old office buildings or even industrial spaces turned into apartments and "lofts." I've got better things to do than read all 59 pages of that report, but that is for a very particular case in one time and place. Yes, the points you quoted earlier note that there can be significant costs, of course that is true. But the benefits are also significant, and we the magic of the free market should recognize that. There is no reason to believe that any conclusions in this case generalize - versus my own lying eyes, which see all kinds of converted spaces around me.

At any rate, WFH helps with the cost of living crisis as well as climate change. It is foolish not to promote it, but the Biden administration is foolish so that's where we're at.

Herstory Begins Now posted:

yes the town is 70% non-white, I will be exceedingly surprised if the police force is anywhere near that, even though they certainly have non-white officers officers

Epic High Five posted:

Hadn't that actually been deployed at other campuses before this and the students actually liked it? I mean 2 bathrooms per 8 dorms and a kitchen of sorts probably ain't bad ratios and not having to share rooms doesn't sound too bad compared to alternatives. Of course it may have just been that the building wasn't 150 years old like other campus options. It even comes with a beer pong table!

Epic High Five posted:

Hadn't that actually been deployed at other campuses before this and the students actually liked it? I mean 2 bathrooms per 8 dorms and a kitchen of sorts probably ain't bad ratios and not having to share rooms doesn't sound too bad compared to alternatives. Of course it may have just been that the building wasn't 150 years old like other campus options. It even comes with a beer pong table!

Oracle posted:

The school district police is entirely Latino.
I can't find any statistics or employment list for the city police dept but flipping through their facebook page (yikes) every cop pictured is Latino, and there are at least a dozen different people. Every cop mentioned by name in news stories has a Hispanic name. The higher ups (mayor etc) are white, but the beat cops appear to by and large not be. If you can find otherwise be my guest.

Gully Foyle posted:

The bigger issue for that building was that something like 90+% of the rooms would have no windows at all (not even in the "main" room of each cluster).

Herstory Begins Now posted:

no, that was simply some pr statement from the billionaire

BiggerBoat posted:

Wouldn't the autopsies be able to tell what bullet killed each child?

God, that was a horrible sentence to type but here we are.

quote:

Currently, ballistics examiners are aided by computer databases such as the ATF's National Integrated Ballistic Information Network, but lab techs always rely on their own visual inspection to make the final call. The Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners only requires an examiner to find "sufficient agreement" between bullets in order to conclude that they came from the same gun. Those judgment calls can cause false results. Last September the Detroit Police Department's crime lab was shut down after an audit by the state of Michigan found a 10 percent error rate in ballistics identification.

Oracle posted:

The school district police is entirely Latino.
I can't find any statistics or employment list for the city police dept but flipping through their facebook page (yikes) every cop pictured is Latino, and there are at least a dozen different people. Every cop mentioned by name in news stories has a Hispanic name. The higher ups (mayor etc) are white, but the beat cops appear to by and large not be. If you can find otherwise be my guest.

AmiYumi posted:

None of this is at all compelling evidence when the question is “did the pigs say horrific racist things _{^{(and also shot a lot of kids)}}”

Unless your argument is that Whites have a superpower no other ethnic group possesses, and it’s the ability to say horrible poo poo about their own race

Epic High Five posted:

I saw those floorplans and I'd say the biggest issue was the whole "only two entrances that are also the only exits" thing. People can live without windows but fire recognizes no boundaries and possesses no mercy.

To be fair, it's also a part of the mockup that I figured would never, ever make it to groundbreaking

Aw hell, well I stand corrected. It's a sort of planned community thing where I could see it working in very specific circumstances but that was one of them. I'd probably never live in one if only because I know for a stone cold fact that if it was a general population situation each shoebox would be $2200/month

Rappaport posted:

Lib and let die posted:

In my communist utopia these buildings will be built and it will be where the former systems administrators will be housed while they go through the re-education process.

Herstory Begins Now posted:

Yeah the core dormitory thing of being a low-frills sleeping quarter specifically because you aren't meant to be spending your day in it is not an unworkable concept, though IDK where the actual research stands there. Going no windows definitely is unthinkable though. Doubly so because going yolo no windows just unites the two camps of 'you need natural light as a human decency thing' and the 'you need windows so people don't die in fires.' Which obviously encompases like 99% of people

Epic High Five posted:

I dunno this is pretty austere even compared to the "you wouldn't want to live in THIS would you?" examples of combloc housing. Maybe what it's missing is some fun and vibrant rugs on the wall

Lib and let die posted:

I'm thinking it's a whole Truman Show isolated island kind of deal. All the trappings of the nightmare hellscape they wrought upon the world in miniature except instead of on top of the food chain they're forced to live at the bottom. Upon successfully unionizing and disrupting the local "economy" they are eligible for evaluation for reintegration into wider society.

There's a lot of good reasons I wouldn't put myself in charge of a communist utopia.

RBA Starblade posted:

Sysadmins are a lot of things but I don't think they're the apex predators of the world.

I'm also not sure they wouldn't mind those conditions, based on the ones I personally know.

Lib and let die posted:

I'm thinking it's a whole Truman Show isolated island kind of deal. All the trappings of the nightmare hellscape they wrought upon the world in miniature except instead of on top of the food chain they're forced to live at the bottom. Upon successfully unionizing and disrupting the local "economy" they are eligible for evaluation for reintegration into wider society.

There's a lot of good reasons I wouldn't put myself in charge of a communist utopia.

Lib and let die posted:

I suppose I ought to clarify that I'm using systems administrators in the sense that say, Chris Hedges might use it - the administrators of the systems whose output is suffering.

Kalli posted:

I mean considering the current state of NYC apartments, converting some office buildings into terrible hives wouldn't be much of a dystopia compared to the current state of things.

Like there's already plenty of ultra micro apartments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZSdrtEqcHU

Or you know, the straight up illegal ones not up to code that get people killed, like last year's floods:

https://abc7ny.com/nyc-flooding-deadly-13-killed-basement-apartments-flood/10995579/

But blah blah blah, any conversion would be into obscene luxury condos to sit vacant for ultrarich investors regardless.

Epic High Five posted:

I saw those floorplans and I'd say the biggest issue was the whole "only two entrances that are also the only exits" thing. People can live without windows but fire recognizes no boundaries and possesses no mercy.

To be fair, it's also a part of the mockup that I figured would never, ever make it to groundbreaking

Aw hell, well I stand corrected. It's a sort of planned community thing where I could see it working in very specific circumstances but that was one of them. I'd probably never live in one if only because I know for a stone cold fact that if it was a general population situation each shoebox would be $2200/month

quote:

The Republican lawmaker who drafted the training curriculum that schools would have to follow to allow teachers in Ohio to carry guns owns a gun training business that seemingly fits all the required steps in the bill.

quote:

The senator owns a business called S.T.A.R.T., which represents Special Tactics and Rescue Training. It is a firearm training and threat management business... One of those who testified in support was Dinero Ciardelli, the CEO of S.T.A.R.T. He did not identify himself as being with the company, but he did not legally have to. Hoagland just so happens to be the Chair of the Senate Veterans and Public Safety Committee, so he watched his colleague testify in favor of his bill.

Epic High Five posted:

Okay, limit 1, but who wants a very well framed picture of Catwoman from the greatest Christmas movie of all time, Batman Returns, as a 24 hour probation image? First come first serve, there will be future probation giveaways for the too slow