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TheIncredulousHulk posted:What is the proper behavior if someone makes an argument that would be normally refuted by making a stale point? Should we just let it stand uncontested or what I've allowed that before as long as the refutation is direct and robust.
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Jul 2, 2022 03:43
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Koos Group posted:I've allowed that before as long as the refutation is direct and robust. In what way was Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!'s post insufficiently direct and robust?
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Jul 2, 2022 03:57
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Jimmy Carter speed run? Really not getting the comparisons between Biden and Carter. Granted Carter was before my time, but from what I've read about the guy he seems like he was on the right side of history on most things and was sure as poo poo less evil than the guy who came after him (Ronald "let's ignore AIDS and destroy unions" Reagan). Carter also lost a humiliating defeat to Reagan in a landslide blowout, 489-49 in the electoral college. HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Jul 2, 2022 |
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Jul 2, 2022 03:59
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Koos Group posted:I've allowed that before as long as the refutation is direct and robust. under internet arguing rules you need to allow people to go 'no that's loving stupid' at really stupid posts. And then when the person asks them to explain that, they gotta explain why they called it really loving stupid. otherwise you run the risk of idiots posting idiotic poo poo at eachother endlessly and there being no way to call it out
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Jul 2, 2022 04:01
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Koos Group posted:Then please refrain from complaining that they are not probed.
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Jul 2, 2022 04:04
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Koos Group posted:I've allowed that before as long as the refutation is direct and robust. lol Edit after the fact: My many apologies, for sake of robustness, (rofl)lmao (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) hobotrashcanfires fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Jul 2, 2022 |
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Jul 2, 2022 04:11
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cat botherer posted:I’m complaining about the discrepancy and the amount. I don’t want more probing, so I’m not going to report a quarter of the posts ITT. For whatever reason, leftists get probed a lot more than centrists, which discourages these points of view. I don’t want to make it worse by reporting people constantly myself. I wonder if this high school debate clube vibe has something to do with a former sub-forum of D&D getting more than twice the readership that this one does. Assuming Koos Group and team are just responding to reports, not moderating threads, this would lead me to believe that centrists report getting their dumb ideas called out more than leftists report their dumb ideas.
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Jul 2, 2022 04:13
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Gripweed posted:In what way was Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!'s post insufficiently direct and robust? It wasn't a refutation of the idea that Sinema and Manchin don't vote with the Dems enough to get progressive legislation passed - just as pointing out Sinema and Manchin, in turn, is not a refutation of the idea that Democrats control all three branches of government. They're rhetorical points that go past each other and I'm tired of seeing this argument. It's actually a good example of why the rule exists. cat botherer posted:I’m complaining about the discrepancy and the amount. I don’t want more probing, so I’m not going to report a quarter of the posts ITT. For whatever reason, leftists get probed a lot more than centrists, which discourages these points of view. I don’t want to make it worse by reporting people constantly myself. I wonder if this high school debate clube vibe has something to do with a former sub-forum of D&D getting more than twice the readership that this one does. If there is a discrepancy in the amount, it would likely be caused by the fact that there are more leftists in this area of D&D than centrists. I don't factor in ideology that way when handling reports, and I encourage my other mods not to do so either. The only possible bias is that because I consume leftist media more than centrist media, I'm more likely to recognize common leftist arguments and find them tiresome. Please PM me for further discussion on this topic, as I feel we're close to exhausting it and getting in the way of the thread's purpose.
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Jul 2, 2022 04:17
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cat botherer posted:I’m complaining about the discrepancy and the amount. I don’t want more probing, so I’m not going to report a quarter of the posts ITT. For whatever reason, leftists get probed a lot more than centrists, which discourages these points of view. I don’t want to make it worse by reporting people constantly myself. I wonder if this high school debate clube vibe has something to do with a former sub-forum of D&D getting more than twice the readership that this one does. I'm sure I speak for the D&D mods when I say that if you remove all the federal agents, russian bots, and proudy boys cosplaying as leftists D&D has something like 5x as many real users. I highly doubt that is why. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 2, 2022 04:19
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I'm sure I speak for the D&D mods when I say that if you remove all the federal agents, russian bots, and proudy boys cosplaying as leftists D&D has something like 5x as many real users. I highly doubt that is why. One should also remove Bernie Bros, Dean Screamers, Jesse Jackoffs, and Roosevelt Ruffians.
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Jul 2, 2022 04:24
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Maynard Muskievotes too
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Jul 2, 2022 04:32
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Herstory Begins Now posted:under internet arguing rules you need to allow people to go 'no that's loving stupid' at really stupid posts. And then when the person asks them to explain that, they gotta explain why they called it really loving stupid. Herstory Begins Now posted:I'm sure I speak for the D&D mods when I say that if you remove all the federal agents, russian bots, and proudy boys cosplaying as leftists D&D has something like 5x as many real users. I highly doubt that is why. We really should have tried out what Herstory wanted and call this post really loving stupid and then let them dig down into why their paranoid fantasy isn't really loving stupid.
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Jul 2, 2022 05:02
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Koos Group posted:It doesn't matter whether they were correct or not. If you don't believe there are any points to be made about a certain subject that everyone reading hasn't heard before, then it would be better not to make any. You’ve never made a not-stale post, ever (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 2, 2022 05:11
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cat botherer posted:I’m complaining about the discrepancy and the amount. I don’t want more probing, so I’m not going to report a quarter of the posts ITT. For whatever reason, leftists get probed a lot more than centrists, which discourages these points of view. I don’t want to make it worse by reporting people constantly myself. I wonder if this high school debate clube vibe has something to do with a former sub-forum of D&D getting more than twice the readership that this one does. There's no reason to expect an equal number of probes between whoever you perceive as "leftists" and "centrists" in a thread, and even assuming that the "leftists" do get probed more, there are tons of possible fair reasons for that (e.g. there are more of them in general, their arguments are bad, the way they present their arguments is stupid/counterproductive/rude, etc).
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Jul 2, 2022 05:37
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E: nevermind
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Jul 2, 2022 05:48
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Papercut posted:There's no reason to expect an equal number of probes between whoever you perceive as "leftists" and "centrists" in a thread, and even assuming that the "leftists" do get probed more, there are tons of possible fair reasons for that (e.g. there are more of them in general, their arguments are bad, the way they present their arguments is stupid/counterproductive/rude, etc). If anything I just see it as a sign that mods are not proactive enough. Stale arguments are a great reason to probe people here but it's also obvious that if your stale argument doesn't offend anyone it gets by because it wasn't reported. So you can easily get away with a lot of boring and pointless white noise about how politics make you feel as long as none of those feelings are too strong. People should also eat a probe for making a boring post like that when we have many places for boring posts and only one place like D&D for serious discussions. If anything we would benefit from more proactive mods who feel the freedom to kick out any and all white noise posting, not just the angry ones which do tend to lean left here. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Jul 2, 2022 |
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Jul 2, 2022 05:59
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I think that if the rules were robust enough and set up right, it really shouldn't matter who's doing the probing, and an equal number of probes would be dealt to all "sides" (if we must frame it that way). The current set of rules is definitely a strong move in the right direction, but (from the sidelines) there is a noticeable lopsidedness. I think the rules should be treated as a living document under periodic revision, and every so often issues can be identified, evaluated, and then addressed via addendums to the rules, whether that's by revising existing ones, adding new ones, or removing deprecated ones. Examples and precedent-setting posts can be linked to for the sake of illustration, which would enhance the accessibility and ease of understanding to anyone referencing them, which should reduce overall friction. The rules can be revisited every so often, whatever period the mods decide would be best, until an equilibrium is achieved. That's my two cents anyhow.
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Jul 2, 2022 06:17
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I'm sure I speak for the D&D mods when I say that if you remove all the federal agents, russian bots, and proudy boys cosplaying as leftists D&D has something like 5x as many real users. I highly doubt that is why. Free Herstory Begins Now now.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 2, 2022 06:23
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Papercut posted:There's no reason to expect an equal number of probes between whoever you perceive as "leftists" and "centrists" in a thread, and even assuming that the "leftists" do get probed more, there are tons of possible fair reasons for that (e.g. there are more of them in general, their arguments are bad, the way they present their arguments is stupid/counterproductive/rude, etc). Gumball Gumption posted:If anything I just see it as a sign that mods are not proactive enough. Stale arguments are a great reason to probe people here but it's also obvious that if your stale argument doesn't offend anyone it gets by because it wasn't reported. So you can easily get away with a lot of boring and pointless white noise about how politics make you feel as long as none of those feelings are too strong. People should also eat a probe for making a boring post like that when we have many places for boring posts and only one place like D&D for serious discussions. If anything we would benefit from more proactive mods who feel the freedom to kick out any and all white noise posting, not just the angry ones which do tend to lean left here. Son of Thunderbeast posted:I think that if the rules were robust enough and set up right, it really shouldn't matter who's doing the probing, and an equal number of probes would be dealt to all "sides" (if we must frame it that way). The current set of rules is definitely a strong move in the right direction, but (from the sidelines) there is a noticeable lopsidedness. I think the rules should be treated as a living document under periodic revision, and every so often issues can be identified, evaluated, and then addressed via addendums to the rules, whether that's by revising existing ones, adding new ones, or removing deprecated ones. Examples and precedent-setting posts can be linked to for the sake of illustration, which would enhance the accessibility and ease of understanding to anyone referencing them, which should reduce overall friction. The rules can be revisited every so often, whatever period the mods decide would be best, until an equilibrium is achieved. That's my two cents anyhow. Agreed.
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Jul 2, 2022 06:25
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The other problem with moderation is one of context. We’ve been posting at each other for years or even near decades. The other thing is moderators might have to not post actively too, anything the post can be construed to bias their moderation.
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Jul 2, 2022 06:26
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Gumball Gumption posted:If anything I just see it as a sign that mods are not proactive enough. Stale arguments are a great reason to probe people here but it's also obvious that if your stale argument doesn't offend anyone it gets by because it wasn't reported. So you can easily get away with a lot of boring and pointless white noise about how politics make you feel as long as none of those feelings are too strong. People should also eat a probe for making a boring post like that when we have many places for boring posts and only one place like D&D for serious discussions. If anything we would benefit from more proactive mods who feel the freedom to kick out any and all white noise posting, not just the angry ones which do tend to lean left here. I agree that it is much better to have mods be proactive and watching threads in the present as opposed to reactive and going through reports hours later handing out probes for discussion that threads have often moved on from. However, you're just never going to get good coverage for that with volunteer mods who mostly have day jobs where they're not able to fully engage with this or other threads during US workday hours. I do try and keep an eye on threads when I have time/energy so I can step in and be proactive if they start going to poo poo, but that's often not possible. I've encouraged posters that PM with concerns about moderation to message me on Discord if a thread would benefit from quick intervention. I can't speak for the other mods but it's much faster to reach me via the mod discord. DMing me on Discord will ping my phone, PMing me on the forums or submitting a report often won't get a response until evenings. Not that I'm going to drop everything I'm doing if you message me on Discord but if you want proactive moderation that acts in the middle of an exchange instead of hours later, that's more likely to get it. For me anyway. Almost nobody makes use of the Discord. Please don't abuse it, but don't forget it's an option that might result in quicker response if something major is going on. Son of Thunderbeast posted:I think that if the rules were robust enough and set up right, it really shouldn't matter who's doing the probing, and an equal number of probes would be dealt to all "sides" (if we must frame it that way). The current set of rules is definitely a strong move in the right direction, but (from the sidelines) there is a noticeable lopsidedness. I think the rules should be treated as a living document under periodic revision, and every so often issues can be identified, evaluated, and then addressed via addendums to the rules, whether that's by revising existing ones, adding new ones, or removing deprecated ones. Examples and precedent-setting posts can be linked to for the sake of illustration, which would enhance the accessibility and ease of understanding to anyone referencing them, which should reduce overall friction. The rules can be revisited every so often, whatever period the mods decide would be best, until an equilibrium is achieved. That's my two cents anyhow. I think it's worth pointing out that the actual rules are very brief, see here the D&D "mission statement" and rules: Koos Group posted:The purpose of D&D is educational. Posters are encouraged to ask questions, share knowledge, learn new things, and speculate, discuss, and argue interpretations and ideas. The hope is that participation here will make posters better informed, develop more refined personal ideologies, be better able to argue their positions in real life, and find ways to put their positions into practice with real world activism. The longer list of lettered and numbered guidelines are meant to illustrate how those three basic rules work in practice. ------ Anyhow, I don't think there's too much more productive to be said on moderation, so let's end this derail for the evening, please. You can PM Koos or one of the mods to discuss further though I think things have been pretty well laid out. The intention was to have feedback threads quarterly which means the next planned one will be sometime in August, I believe. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Jul 2, 2022 |
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Jul 2, 2022 06:30
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Gumball Gumption posted:If anything I just see it as a sign that mods are not proactive enough. Stale arguments are a great reason to probe people here but it's also obvious that if your stale argument doesn't offend anyone it gets by because it wasn't reported. So you can easily get away with a lot of boring and pointless white noise about how politics make you feel as long as none of those feelings are too strong. People should also eat a probe for making a boring post like that when we have many places for boring posts and only one place like D&D for serious discussions. If anything we would benefit from more proactive mods who feel the freedom to kick out any and all white noise posting, not just the angry ones which do tend to lean left here. I’ll need a larger pot of coffee for this one, hold on.
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Jul 2, 2022 11:23
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I'll post more about this later when I've had a chance to dig into the real meat of the lepers colony this afternoon. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 2, 2022 12:08
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Koos Group posted:If there is a discrepancy in the amount, it would likely be caused by the fact that there are more leftists in this area of D&D than centrists. I don't factor in ideology that way when handling reports, and I encourage my other mods not to do so either. It is slightly difficult to believe you, when you have said that both "The Democrats don't control the Senate because of Manchin and Sinema" and "Manchin and Sinema are both Democrats so yes they do" are stale arguments worthy of punishment, yet only the later actually received punishment (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 2, 2022 12:44
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Please find something better to do with your holiday weekend than posting about D&D moderation.
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Jul 2, 2022 13:18
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Fritz the Horse posted:I agree that it is much better to have mods be proactive and watching threads in the present as opposed to reactive and going through reports hours later handing out probes for discussion that threads have often moved on from. However, you're just never going to get good coverage for that with volunteer mods who mostly have day jobs where they're not able to fully engage with this or other threads during US workday hours. I do try and keep an eye on threads when I have time/energy so I can step in and be proactive if they start going to poo poo, but that's often not possible. According to the rules wouldn't it technically become off-site drama if someone directed you to take action on a post through discord? I'm good, seems dangerously close to just being a way to start getting accused of off-site discord collision from people angry about a prob.
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Jul 2, 2022 13:25
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Fritz the Horse posted:Please find something better to do with your holiday weekend than posting about D&D moderation. I didn't know horses love Canada Day
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Jul 2, 2022 14:13
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Liz Cheney gave a speech at the reagan library a couple days ago that is a window into where part of the GOP is at https://www.c-span.org/video/?521290-1/rep-cheney-calls-president-trump-domestic-threat Gumball Gumption posted:We really should have tried out what Herstory wanted and call this post really loving stupid and then let them dig down into why their paranoid fantasy isn't really loving stupid. I figured that surely that post was so over the top that no one could take it seriously, but lol I guess not.
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Jul 2, 2022 14:19
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Gumball Gumption posted:According to the rules wouldn't it technically become off-site drama if someone directed you to take action on a post through discord? I'm good, seems dangerously close to just being a way to start getting accused of off-site discord collision from people angry about a prob. If you report someone for goatseing the thread and then use Discord to attract immediate attention to the report, it would not. Something being true or false wouldn’t stop a goon angry about a probation in any case, so it’s pointless to invest into anything reliant on a measured reaction from their side. If you have further thoughts on this, please write them down somewhere and set a reminder for the August feedback thread, to publish them.
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Jul 2, 2022 14:44
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Liz Cheney gave a speech at the reagan library a couple days ago that is a window into where part of the GOP is at Poe's law is a bitch. Also Florida has made being gay in school the equivalent of being on a sex offender list. https://twitter.com/BenjaminJS/status/1542568527990624256 This sort of thing wasn't even happening when I was a kid, so we're backsliding real far real fast.
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Jul 2, 2022 15:27
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New York has passed their updated gun laws, so now that you can get your concealed carry license actually performing concealed carry has gotten much harder, especially in New York City. The most significant change is greatly expanding the list of "sensitive places" in which guns are not permitted. Thomas said that you can't just make a blanket declaration that a vast area is sensitive (his example was the entire island of Manhattan) but it's still unclear where the line is and the legislature took full advantage of that. You can no no longer carry a gun in: -Government buildings -Medical facilities -Religious facilities -Educational facilities -Parks, zoos, and museums -Theaters, stadiums, and other performance spaces -"Places where alcohol or marijuana is consumed" -Polling places -Public transit -Times Square specifically -Any private business that does not post a sign explicitly permitting guns That last bit is the rub as it's very obviously intended to take advantage of social pressure and make allowing guns in your business a commercial death sentence. I guess we revisit the definition of "sensitive place" in a couple of years once someone sues over it. There are a number of other relatively minor tweaks, like raising the age to buy assault rifles (was 18, now 21), banning the sale of body armor to the public, and making red flag orders easier to file. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/new-york-may-ban-concealed-guns-many-places-including-times-square-2022-07-01/
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Jul 2, 2022 16:02
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haveblue posted:New York has passed their updated gun laws, so now that you can get your concealed carry license actually performing concealed carry has gotten much harder, especially in New York City. Is it "places where alcohol or marijuana are consumed" or "places where alcohol or marijuana may be legally consumed?" If it's the former, I'd say they've effectively banned concealed carry.
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Jul 2, 2022 16:16
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PT6A posted:Is it "places where alcohol or marijuana are consumed" or "places where alcohol or marijuana may be legally consumed?" Looks like it's the latter- places which hold the appropriate license for customer use of those products
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Jul 2, 2022 16:20
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PT6A posted:Is it "places where alcohol or marijuana are consumed" or "places where alcohol or marijuana may be legally consumed?" Not a lawyer, but I would read that as bars, restaurants and other similar venues. Basically you can conceal carry on the street but you can't bring it inside your workplace (Unless it explicitly says you can). Cimber fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jul 2, 2022 |
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Jul 2, 2022 16:22
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haveblue posted:New York has passed their updated gun laws, so now that you can get your concealed carry license actually performing concealed carry has gotten much harder, especially in New York City. Oh no! What about my freedoms to carry a hidden deadly loaded weapon with me everywhere I travel? How the gently caress am I supposed to enjoy a movie, a meal or survive a trip to the grocery store knowing that I can't shoot someone if I have to? Such tyranny.
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Jul 2, 2022 16:37
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Poe's law is a bitch. That's just one county, not the whole state. It's especially noteworthy, though, because Leon County (despite being in Florida) is a deep-blue county known for its relatively progressive politics. Though I wouldn't be surprised if the school board leans much redder than the rest of the county, because the progressivism is heavily driven by college students making up a large portion of Tallahassee's population.
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Jul 2, 2022 16:59
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School boards are also notorious for being dominated by people with the time and inclination to be on the school board so it probably skews richer and older than the community
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Jul 2, 2022 17:06
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haveblue posted:School boards are also notorious for being dominated by people with the time and inclination to be on the school board so it probably skews richer and older than the community also don't forget that the GOP has specifically targeted school boards and other small government bodies as the next battleground. They want to have th GOP agenda presented in every facet of American life.
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Jul 2, 2022 17:11
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Cimber posted:also don't forget that the GOP has specifically targeted school boards and other small government bodies as the next battleground. They want to have th GOP agenda presented in every facet of American life. I’ve seen some breathless articles describing this as a dangerous and unstoppable tactic but they really are just coming in and voting.
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Jul 2, 2022 17:14
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HonorableTB posted:How'd that turn out? Things have been crazy lately with everything going on so I haven't had the chance to talk to her about it again, and she isn't someone I see everyday in my normal schedule. Also, lmao, in hindsight I did not come off as smooth as I made it sound in the post you quoted. This stuff isn't really my area of expertise so I was thinking of trying to find a script or something before I talk to her again. But it sounded like it was starting to click for her with the Ireland story. Trending now, Republicans have absolutely no shame. They really just thought they were gonna stop a bunch of lazy 9 month pregnant women from getting an abortion so they could fit into that swimsuit this summer. Stuff like this is only just getting started. https://twitter.com/AllenLEllison/status/1543266859029520390 STORY LINK -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Jul 2, 2022 |
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Jul 2, 2022 17:24
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