|
Paperhouse posted:Labour at least has some MPs that are good. No Tories are good. A Labour govt would theoretically have a slightly harder time passing heinous poo poo through parliament https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1546962835569360896
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 18:13 |
|
|
To be fair, that's the undemocratically elected elite, not the MPs. I'm going to vote for whoever can beat the Tories in my area in the next GE, which is looking Lib Dem. Are the lib dems good? No. Are they better than the Tories? Hell yes. Not voting for the lesser evil because it's not the no existant good option seems shortsighted to me.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:13
|
|
|
'Mick Lynch is battering us in these interviews, try Eddie Dempsey instead' https://twitter.com/ronanburtenshaw/status/1547625321398013957?t=-8BTzJdRMoqbgPp2WxtX8A&s=19
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:13
|
|
|
Grey Hunter posted:To be fair, that's the undemocratically elected elite, not the MPs. this is the correct answer this thread loves to poo poo on Labour (for mostly good reasons) but I'll always vote Labour whilst they're the best option to beat the Tories in my area lmao
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:16
|
|
|
Paperhouse posted:Labour at least has some MPs that are good. No Tories are good. A Labour govt would theoretically have a slightly harder time passing heinous poo poo through parliament Not if it just makes those bills bipartisan. Starmer's Labour would be far more likely to court the votes of Tory MPs than those of the few actually principled members of the SCG. In some ways, you'd be increasing the likelihood of regressive legislation being passed by giving Labour full license to whip for it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:18
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Not if it just makes those bills bipartisan. Starmer's Labour would be far more likely to court the votes of Tory MPs than those of the few actually principled members of the SCG. In some ways, you'd be increasing the likelihood of regressive legislation being passed by giving Labour full license to whip for it. in this case we should just never vote labour then and allow the tories to rule indefinitely?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:20
|
|
|
Looke posted:in this case we should just never vote labour then and allow the tories to rule indefinitely? The point is that Labour in its present state isn't an alternative to the Tories, but an extension of them. Yes, it is possible and reasonable to extrapolate from this that Westminster as a whole is more an obstacle than an asset to an effectively, humanely-run country, and that we should seek to build the power of structures outside it in order to bypass it as much as is possible. Unions have been doing a pretty good job of proving their worth lately, for instance.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:27
|
|
|
RandomUserString posted:Is Labour better than the Tories, though? The current Labour Party under Starmer seems to be "Same policies as the Tories, but more efficiently executed". Did the Tories warn their front benches off attending picket lines?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:28
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:The point is that Labour in its present state isn't an alternative to the Tories, but an extension of them. Yes, it is possible and reasonable to extrapolate from this that Westminster as a whole is more an obstacle than an asset to an effectively, humanely-run country, and that we should seek to build the power of structures outside it in order to bypass it as much as is possible. Unions have been doing a pretty good job of proving their worth lately, for instance. I'm not sure political theory is that comforting to the general public who are being rinsed of all the salary and savings, and having to decide who gets to eat tonight. But I guess as Labour are a dead cause then we may as well stick with the devil we know 
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:32
|
|
|
It's fine, Labour will send a bunch of old friends on £300/day + expenses to abstain on that question.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:35
|
|
|
Grey Hunter posted:To be fair, that's the undemocratically elected elite, not the MPs. Not sure what that’s got to do with it, they didn’t all spontaneously decide to abstain - they were asked to by party leadership.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:35
|
|
|
'Lesser evilism' is absolutely factored in by third way parties, they can drift to the right as much as they like and then bet on most of the left begrudgingly voting for them no matter how bad they get because the alternative is worse. Vote how you like, but you are being extorted by a political system that will not change as long as the same tricks keep working
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:37
|
|
|
Looke posted:this is the correct answer Yeah as I keep saying I hate Starmer but I'm voting Labour because my local Labour party is good and my MP is a good lad.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:38
|
|
|
I think we're past voting, the system is stacked against us. Voting for the lesser evil is just prolonging the inevitable.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:44
|
|
|
Cool, I'm sure that'll be comforting to the poor and destitute, will remember that
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:46
|
|
|
I mean historically the system is stacked against the political left, the answer is either despair or building parallel structures outside of electoral politics.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:48
|
|
|
Looke posted:Cool, I'm sure that'll be comforting to the poor and destitute, will remember that Keith is currently attacking the Tory leadership candidates as an austerity hawk
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:50
|
|
|
Looke posted:Cool, I'm sure that'll be comforting to the poor and destitute, will remember that What exactly do you imagine Starmer will do for the poor and destitute?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:50
|
|
|
Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses? My constituency will go blue no matter what, so I guess I can decide whether to help the Greens or the local Posadist International splinter group or whatever keep their deposit.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:54
|
|
|
Be less poo poo than the Tories, that's what people need right now The system clearly needs to change but it wont happen overnight, and likely take years-decades if it even happens at all. Meanwhile people are still struggling now and saying "they're all as bad as each other, thus voting for Labour is a lost cause" doesn't actually help anyone What would you suggest we do?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:54
|
|
|
Looke posted:Cool, I'm sure that'll be comforting to the poor and destitute, will remember that Looke posted:Be less poo poo than the Tories, that's what people need right now It'd be one thing if Labour was lesser in its evil or less poo poo compared to the Tories. Half a crust of bread is better than none, agreed. I'm just skeptical that Starmerite Labour in power would actually provide that half-crust of bread, given how systematically Starmer and the Labour Right has worked to purge the Labour left wing, and given how enthusiastically they've swung to the right in policy at every opportunity. Is there any policy position on which Starmerite Labour actually differs from Tory at this point? RandomUserString fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Jul 15, 2022 |
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:54
|
|
|
Paperhouse posted:A Labour govt would theoretically have a slightly harder time passing heinous poo poo through parliament <Laughs in work capability assessments> From a disabled perspective, there are no good options. Both parties want people like me dead.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:57
|
|
|
RandomUserString posted:It'd be one thing if Labour actually was lesser in its evil compared to the Tories, and there is value and comfort in prolonging the inevitable. You'd be right to be skeptical, I'm not a Starmer fan either All this thread can suggest is that the system is broken (which it is) and that it needs to fundamentally change (which it does) and as a result we shouldn't bother voting for them - what good does that actually achieve aside from another Tory majority?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 09:58
|
|
|
I think trashfuture summed it up pretty well that the Tories get in and vandalise everything until the public get tired of the vandalism and then it's the job of Blairite Labour, technocrats, to come in and institutionalise the damage. Stop the vandalism, but not really reverse it so much as file off the rough edges and make it "workable" Of course, there was once a Labour leader who suggested that maybe throwing the baby out with the bathwater might work, given the baby is long dead and turning the water black.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:01
|
|
|
No Dignity posted:Keith is currently attacking the Tory leadership candidates as an austerity hawk For ease of reference: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/12/labour-to-pledge-ironclad-discipline-with-public-finances Labour has committed to “ironclad discipline” with the public finances and cutting Britain’s debt burden if it gets into power, in an attempt to draw a clear dividing line with Tory leadership hopefuls promising billions of pounds in tax cuts. Rachel Reeves, the shadow chancellor, will use a speech on Wednesday to bind a future Labour government to strict borrowing limits designed to protect the public finances while allowing it to lay the foundations for a growing economy. As the candidates vying to replace Boris Johnson as prime minister promise tax cuts worth billions of pounds without being clear on how they would be funded, Reeves will argue “the tables have turned” on fiscal credibility. “Any lingering sense that the Conservatives are the party of economic responsibility has been shredded to pieces over the past few days,” she will say. ... Labour said the Tory leadership contenders’ tax promises would rip up the government’s own fiscal rules and create a £24bn budget deficit, with the national debt reaching 84% of GDP by 2026-27 as a result. Reeves will say a Labour government would stick to fiscal rules that would include a promise to only borrow to invest, while committing to reducing the national debt as a share of the economy. The shadow chancellor will tell an event hosted by the Resolution Foundation thinktank in London: “I’ve set out the fiscal rules which will bind the next Labour government. Rules which I will stick to with ironclad discipline.”
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:01
|
|
|
My contention with Labour is that they talk about doing things to be electable but mostly what they do is come across as the jobsworth pricks who make life frustrating.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:04
|
|
|
Looke posted:Be less poo poo than the Tories, that's what people need right now What indicates they’d be less poo poo? And if they are very mildly less poo poo, but their success means a dramatic and further entrenched shift to the right in the uk, is it worth that pathetically minor increase, which again im not even sure would materialise?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:05
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:What indicates they’d be less poo poo? And if they are very mildly less poo poo, but their success means a dramatic and further entrenched shift to the right in the uk, is it worth that pathetically minor increase, which again im not even sure would materialise? so we should just accept further Tory governments then?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:06
|
|
|
Looke posted:You'd be right to be skeptical, I'm not a Starmer fan either It's a completely hosed situation and another Tory government terrifies me, but Labour are offering precisely zero difference in substance. At the very least refusing to vote for Labour undermines the current hostage situation they have us in, as long as they can keep relying on your vote no matter how much they piss over you they have no reason ever to stop triangulation to the right
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:06
|
|
|
No Dignity posted:It's a completely hosed situation and another Tory government terrifies me, but Labour are offering precisely zero difference in substance. Looke posted:so we should just accept further Tory governments then?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:07
|
|
|
Looke posted:so we should just accept further Tory governments then? Until we dismantle the press and media ecosystem we kind of have to.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:09
|
|
|
Necrothatcher posted:Until we dismantle the press and media ecosystem we kind of have to.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:10
|
|
|
I don't see any value in changing the branding on exactly the same policies. Even from a solely self interested perspective the Labour Right has tacked very heavily towards Labour Friends of Sex Based Rights For Women And Girls politics, aside from personal style I just don't see any difference between the two now
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:14
|
|
|
Looke posted:I'm not sure political theory is that comforting to the general public who are being rinsed of all the salary and savings, and having to decide who gets to eat tonight. But I guess as Labour are a dead cause then we may as well stick with the devil we know If you're poor and destitute, I think it is quite useful to understand where you can gain the best results for yourself by investing your limited time, energy, and resources. At present in the UK, the answer seems to be with extraparliamentary organisations like the unions, since parliament tends to range between being indifferent and actively malevolent towards you and it's nice to have someone in your corner against it. The idea that Starmerism is the best present hope of the poor and destitute seems far more hollow, cynical, and divorced from reality than what anyone else in this thread is saying.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:14
|
|
|
I can see why a lot of people have just stopped posting in these threads. Not sure how it's become acceptable to just accept the status quo until the revolution happens, lol Lots of people wanting to role play socialists but do nothing to prevent further Tory governments
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:15
|
|
|
Looke posted:Be less poo poo than the Tories, that's what people need right now It's not enough. Slightly slower managed decline is not acceptable anymore. People can't afford basic necessities and Labour are offering nothing that deals with that. We're loving desperate out there. Voting Labour regardless of what they offer is just accepting that slightly slower managed decline, and as someone who is actually on that breadline, I'm an accelerationist now. We're too far gone, nobody is actually offering to improve things, to move away from economics that concentrates wealth even more in the hands of the few while the rest of us need food banks because full-time work isn't paying enough thanks to the insanity of housing, the incoming energy hike which will DEVASTE poor people. I'll vote for Scottish independence & parties who work towards that goal, but if I was in England I'd still not touch Labour. Kieth cannot be trusted as shown by his miserable track record with his pledges. I hope Labour get wiped out.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:15
|
|
|
Looke posted:I can see why a lot of people have just stopped posting in these threads. To be honest it doesn't seem like you're engaging with or acknowledging anything that is being said
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:16
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:If you're poor and destitute, I think it is quite useful to understand where you can gain the best results for yourself by investing your limited time, energy, and resources. At present in the UK, the answer seems to be with extraparliamentary organisations like the unions, since parliament tends to range between being indifferent and actively malevolent towards you and it's nice to have someone in your corner against it. Great, until the Tories further restrict union rights forkboy84 posted:It's not enough. Slightly slower managed decline is not acceptable anymore. People can't afford basic necessities and Labour are offering nothing that deals with that. We're loving desperate out there. Voting Labour regardless of what they offer is just accepting that slightly slower managed decline, and as someone who is actually on that breadline, I'm an accelerationist now. We're too far gone, nobody is actually offering to improve things, to move away from economics that concentrates wealth even more in the hands of the few while the rest of us need food banks because full-time work isn't paying enough thanks to the insanity of housing, the incoming energy hike which will DEVASTE poor people. the Scottish political landscape is no better than the English with the SNP being Tory-lite
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:17
|
|
|
Loads of possible things? There’s a real groundswell of dissatisfaction at the moment, among the young in particular but also generally. I’d suggest the most relevant option would be the TU movement at the moment, but there are plenty of potential routes to real change. None of them easy of course, but all impossible if we legitimise Labour’s stance of ‘the people just hate the Tories but actually quite like neoliberal capitalism’, because that’s what a Labour victory would do. If Labour are successful in their current mission, we will never have a strong left in this country again. Is that acceptable to you?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 18:13 |
|
|
Bacon Terrorist posted:'Mick Lynch is battering us in these interviews, try Eddie Dempsey instead'
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2022 10:17
|
|
