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JustJeff88 posted:Yes, having a bunch of trivial trash fights where the melee classes can sweep up and feel useful when in fact that are just letting the casters keep their limited-use artillery strikes is not good balance. A good caster build in Wrath (and PF1E in general) doesn't necessarily mean a blaster. You can absolutely make a melee character that uses sorcerer, oracle, shaman, cleric, druid, etc as their primary class, to say nothing of the more dedicated gish classes like magus or inquisitor. You can be constantly active and contributing without needing to rest to replenish spell slots, while still providing several of the critical spells needed to make the party work. Blaster builds are also a thing of course, and building a character around making Hellfire Ray, Stormbolts and Controlled Fireball as dangerous as possible is not a bad plan (and probably something you should do on at least one of the two NPCs that are potentially real good at it). It's just not the only thing you can do with a caster. The key balance issue is that there are a very large number of the aforementioned critical spells needed to make the party work. You need to have enough people with the right caster levels to cover enough of them that your numbers are high enough to beat the enemy's numbers for your difficulty level. The overall puzzle of the game is, basically, "I would like 2ish unhittable tanks, 3ish physical dps with good reach and initiative, high DC damage spells targeting all 3 resistances, high DC control/instant death spells targeting all 3 resistances, access to hexes, a bard song, inspire rage, and several critical buff spells from different schools (barkskin, shield of faith, greater magic weapon, haste, freedom of movement, death ward, and so on). How do I get as many of these things as possible in 6 character slots?" At higher difficulties that puzzle will favor a party with a decent few casters because otherwise you won't cover enough of the important spell types to get the numbers you need to hit things and not be hit in turn, and because you also need a frontline some of the casters will ideally be built so they can stand on it and be useful. Alternatively, you can abuse the poo poo out of summons for hard encounters as the BG1 gods intended. It's an IE-like, there are plenty of exploits and general cheese to be had if you don't want to build a party with numbers good enough to legitimately beat their numbers. Xerophyte fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Jul 20, 2022 |
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Jul 20, 2022 16:50
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Or: Reject difficulty, embrace Necromancy 
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Jul 20, 2022 17:24
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Then you run into the goddamn infinity gargoyles and cry deeply because they have high reflex saves and are immune to grease.
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Jul 20, 2022 19:01
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Lord Koth posted:I'll admit, it's a bit strange that the mod which allows you to swap what kind of weapon Radiance is defaults to a scythe. EDIT: Super beaten to this explanation, but there you go. Rythian fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Jul 20, 2022 |
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Jul 20, 2022 20:05
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Edit; Wrong thread sorry
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Jul 20, 2022 20:21
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Rythian posted:The way that mod works, you specifically download an individual file that sets the weapon type. There's basically every weapon type available, to change from the longsword default. OP must have downloaded the Scythe version for their game, and is intending on changing it for the future. Yeah, saw it the first time. I'd just initially made the assumption that the mod had made Radiance work somewhat similarly to a certain something else in the game, rather than requiring out-of-game file insertion.
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Jul 20, 2022 23:23
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JustJeff88 posted:Never played Pathfinder, but utter caster supremacy was the bane of 3e, 3.5e and PF. 5e is already struggling with that and I'm not optimistic about the new PF because P&P gaming nerds are too stuck in the past. 2nd Edition has made CC a lot less absurd while still being useful. Having three actions per turn that can be used for different things lets you do a lot more with levels of crowd control, especially now that failing a save isn't just "Okay, you're done, go take a smoke break while we have fun." There's also the Degrees of success system and the general much tighter balancing when it comes to numbers... I could talk about it at length but I'd rather not derail the thread too much. Point is I'm a big fan. Owlcat-Pathfinder is.. not normal pathfinder. Numbers are heavily inflated to account for the six-man party and all your fun mythic toys, and a lot of statblocks end up somewhat silly. On normal difficulty you can still spec out a wizard to cast "gently caress you, go die" and make people explode, but enemy saving throws are pretty strong so if they're built for whatever save you're targeting odds are it'll fail. You're best off having a healthy balance - I make a point of always having a full divine and arcane caster in my party, and then mixing in a few martials and ranged characters/half casters depending on who I feel like bringing. And Seelah, because having a Paladin in the Demon AP is kind of necessary.
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Jul 20, 2022 23:53
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 Hello everyone and welcome back. Today we're opening up with another rest because the buffs ran out again and I want to be ready for the boss fight ahead. This also lets me showcase what is perhaps my least favorite mechanic in Wrath of the Righteous.  Let must just zoom in here. Do you see it yet?  For some reason, the game has it set that you can only rest once in a 24 hour period. So the last time we did this, mid last update, we got to rest for 9 hours. Because of this inexplicable limitation, we now have to camp out for twenty four hours to get the same amount of rest that 9 gave us not 15 minutes ago. Why are we resting twice in 15 minutes? Because spell slots are a bullshit system that I hate. I will not be accepting questions at this time. And, no, toggling off "use recommended rest period" also does not work. The engine itself, for some reason, will not let you rest twice in 24 hours.  Time Passed: 1H 0M  "I stay out of your way, and you stay out of mine. If we do that, we'll get along just fine. Agreed?" "Keep away from me. We don't have to touch hands - that's for weaklings. If you have a problem with me, grab your sword and try to get rid of me. I can tell you want to, so come on!"Time Passed: 23H 0M  Moving on, we head through the door and down some stairs.    This demon does not take praising Iomedae well. Savamelekh: "Here you are... huddled together like a herd of animals... pitiful monsters, not human or demon. Even tieflings are less defective than you! But I, your master Savamelekh, can make you better, stronger. I can satisfy your hunger, starvelings of the dark... Submit to me!" Mongrel: "No! We are the descendants of crusaders! Trusting a demon would be a betrayal of their memory!" Savamelekh: "Hosilla."  Hosilla puts down the Mongrel who denied Savamelekh. Hosilla: "Well? Who is the next 'descendant of crusaders' who values old legends more than their life?" Savamelekh: "Beasts... monsters in human guise... reveal your true nature! This is the sweet, wholesome flesh of a righteous aasimar! Eat, 'underground crusaders'! Eat the flesh of the crusader from above! Find your true strength!"  The mongrels are greedily cannibalizing the Aasimar. If you are, somehow, not aware - Aasimar are the descendants of celestial beings, usually angels or devas, who mate with a mortal woman. So Savamelekh is corrupting the mongrels' souls by having them eat basically sanctified flesh. All those mindless mongrels we fought as encounters in this very dungeon had the same thing happen to them.   As they eat, an infernal glow overtakes their bodies.  The first time this happened, I thought I had skipped something. But no, as soon as that ends, you're standing in front of Savamelekh for no reason.  Your companions writhe in agony: one clutches at their head, another doubles over. You feel saliva pool in your mouth. The metallic tang awakens hunger in you. The hunger turns to rage. This winged filth dares to try to bind you to its will? It dares to tempt you with the sweet scent of meat, untainted by corruption! The wretch must die! Die! And still the clarity remains with you. Somewhere deep down, beneath the veil of rage and anger, you sense the light trying to break through. There is no mechanical benefit to selecting Demon here. In fact, it makes things a little harder in a couple places later on. Lisbeth is also not a ragelord. So... [Requires Angel Mythic Path] [Seize the light hidden within you] By sheer force of will, you master your rage, and, almost in response, warmth suffuses you from within. Warmth and joy from a simple realization: you can win. You can save these people. The power of Heaven bolsters and guides you. Its light breaks free and, enveloping the mongrels, grants them the gift of blissful oblivion. Lowering your gaze, you see a scarlet stain on your chest — the wound has reopened, and instead of blood pouring forth, you see only radiant light! Bolt of Justice posted:Level: 6 Lisbeth just used a level 6 Mythic ability from the Angel tree. Normally you don't get access to level 6 Mythic abilities like this until the middle of Act 4. Using the demon option would have just had her direct her rage at Savamelekh and he would get spooked and run off.  Savamelekh: The demon convulses in pain when the light reaches him. "What are you? Destroy this vermin!"  In a single blow, she knocked out the poor afflicted mongrels, stunned Savamelekh, and scared him enough to send him packing. Just as a reminder, you all did not vote for the angel path where we could do this sort of poo poo on the regular. Hosilla: Hosilla points at you. "She's already wounded! Wenduag — kill!" Oh no. I'm totally surprised by this. Who would have expected the woman who was acting shady was really in league with demons? Anyway. Wenduag takes a step forward. "I no longer serve you, you bitch! Not you, or your flying monkey! I always fight with the strongest side."  Lann emerges from the shadows, nocking an arrow in his bow as he moves. "What'd I miss? A dramatic showdown?" "Oh it's you. Perfect." I'll give you a guess how this goes. Hosilla is not nearly as hard as the Champions we fought before, let alone the water elemental. Legitimately less than 10 seconds later   Hosilla is hidden behind Seelah's gigantic shield.  Wendy shoots Hosilla unceremoniously after the latter summons... two Quasits. Sure, okay.  Quasits aren't exactly a difficult encounter. Less than a second of focused fire kills them. Before we move on, this is something that makes me laugh. Zenic would have worshipped Urgathoa, goddess of the undead among other things. You see, the game likes to occasionally make calls regarding your chosen god and... The Path Not Taken posted:Some lines from Urgathoa's sacred text float into your mind, as if of their own volition. You can make a great marinade for aasimar flesh using honey and pomegranate juice... To make the meat even more tender, roll it in breadcrumbs before frying... I can't promise to show off every alternate dialogue with god choice, because this  "Keep telling yourself that, Lann. There is always a choice. They could have chosen to die, but now they're going to live and become stronger! I know that from personal experience." Lann turns to her, his face twisted in fury — the lizard half is snarling, the eye narrowed. "Shut up!" The words come out like a growl. "You're not just a traitor! You're a monster! The young ones, they believed your stories, and you lured them to a demon and watched them eat human flesh!" "I was trying to make them strong! What have you done for them? What were you doing while I was looking for ways to bring strength to our tribe? You're useless, Lann!" "I led by example! I trained. I tried to become stronger so I could go to the surface and maybe do something worthwhile with my stupidly short life! And I will do it, if Lisbeth will have me. I might be the one to bring our whole tribe to the surface! But you... Why would you want any power that turns you into a monster? These young guys and girls, they trusted you, and they were turned into mindless animals, ready to eat corpses at a demon's command!" "I went through the same ritual as them, and I didn't become an animal. I conquered my anger, the anger that has been building and building in every one of us for decades! Unlike you, I have no intention of just lying down and politely accepting death! I will rise above all this, while you'll still be stuck with your pride, chewing on rats!" This is going to be an incredibly involved conversation. And this is entirely why I split this update away from the previous one. [Inspect the wound on your chest] The bleeding, deep wound on your chest is gone, like it was never there in the first place. The skin is totally smooth and unmarred. Sighing loudly, Lann whispers: "It's gone... It was just there, and now... it's gone. It's got to be some kind of demonic trickery. You need to have a cleric look at that." "Ha! As if you know anything about demons and their powers! Some dark force cast its gaze on her and chose her from among all others. There is magic inside this uplander that is beyond your meagre understanding, and all you have to say is, 'Go see a cleric'? You're pathetic, Lann!"I really hope every time she checks the wound, she isn't baring her chest. Nobody needs to see half-elf boobs that often. "Lann, how did you find your way here?" Lann offers a vague shrug. "I just kept going until I found it. You can find a way into anywhere if you try hard enough. And besides, I also remembered some of this traitor's stories. At least some of them were true. But that doesn't matter now! We need to tell Sull everything! And then we need to get out of here." "'We'? You think you're the one going to the surface with them? Isn't that sweet?"Seriously, this is a large temple. It's about as straightforward as you can possibly get. If it weren't for the rubble in the middle of the chapel, you'd be able to get through it in about a minute. "So you've been serving Savamelekh this whole time, Wenduag?" "Better to serve a strong master than to eke out an existence in a dark hole with no hope. I am of the neathers, our lives are short, but we are hardier than humans. I realized a long time ago that I was capable of more than this life offered, and I follow whomever is the strongest. You..." Wenduag's eyes gleam. "You scared Savamelekh. Hosilla has fallen. Now I wish to serve you." Lann looks at Wenduag in disgust. "I thought you were proud of your heritage, but you're willing to crawl on your belly before anyone who's even a little stronger than you. You say you didn't become an animal? What a joke! Only animals pledge their allegiance to whoever has the sharpest teeth! But what am I saying? Even cave spiders are loyal to their mother. You're even lower than that." Wenduag laughs. "Oh, so now you think you know everything about me! You're one of the best hunters in the tribe, it benefited me to ingratiate myself with you, so I acted in a way that pleased you. And Lisbeth will get the Wenduag that she} wants to see. I'm willing to do anything to get out of this hole!" Wenduag's laughter cuts off sharply. "And you're willing to do anything too, don't try to hide it. I know you, Lann. I've had time to study you." "I'm going to the surface only because my time has come to leave. Lisbeth and the other uplanders are in danger, they need all the help they can get. But I'm only risking my own life, see the difference? I'll do whatever the crusade asks of me, but I'll never be like you!" "Why didn't you try to stop us from going inside the Maze? You knew we might uncover your secret." "Savamelekh is always in need of new servants. You'd make as good a servant as anyone else. And then..." Wenduag bursts into laughter. "Once you'd gone missing in the Maze, not even the redoubtable Lann would've dared look for you." "But then why did you come with me to look for the sword?" "So I could kill you quietly if you found it, and stop you taking it to the village, you idiot! I would have told everyone that you got caught in a cave-in. But then the uplanders showed up and I had to change my plans. I don't regret what I did. I met you, Lisbeth. Just say the word and all the neathers will be yours. I'll bring them to you if you take me with you!"It's a wonder anyone chose Wendy for their first time because she's so blatantly evil here, that not even evil characters would realistically want to take her on. She's just demonstrated she betrays people at the drop of a hat. "What exactly are you planning to do with the mongrels?" "What you saw here. They will become stronger. They will be an army unlike anything ever seen before on Golarion! Our lives may be short, but while we live, we are faster, deadlier, and harder to kill than most. I am offering you an army, an army that will win you land, power, and everything you desire." "An army of cannibals? Are you insane? You want to turn them from rational beings into rabid beasts that only want to kill! They will be slaves, and you will be their slave driver. Is that the kind of power you're so desperate to gain?" "I went through the same process they did. The beast raged inside me. My mind was foggy. But I have an iron will, and I never back down. I snatched victory from the jaws of insanity! If there are any individuals worthy of becoming my officers among those neathers, they will be able to do the same." "You said you went through the same ritual. Does that mean you ate human flesh too?" "Yes." Wenduag holds your gaze. "Hosilla found me in the caves. I was lost and hungry, and she offered me a choice: die as a nobody, or live and gain the power to change everything. Savamelekh tore off a piece of an aasimar priestess's thigh. A big, juicy piece, more meat than I'd ever received in the tribe." Wenduag laughs. "That was the first time I knew what it was like to be happy, to have a full belly. I swore to myself that it would always be that way." "Then the madness and rage took over. I came very close to turning into an animal, no better than the weaklings you saw in the Maze. But I am strong. I mastered myself. I brought myself under control. I fell, so that I could rise again!" Lann looks at her in disgust. "You should have chosen death. Dying's better than living like... that." "You're saying I should have died that day, Lann? But then who would have listened to your feeble jokes? Who would have showed you the best caves for hunting?" A predatory gleam appears in Wenduag's eyes. "Who would have made you a man?" "I would have been fine without all that. And without you. Your death will make the world a slightly better place, Wenduag." "Look, Lisbeth, isn't our Lann sweet?" Wenduag's words drip with venom. "Look how his eyes blaze as he speaks of murder! And we were so close, too... Tell me, what do you think he'll do to you if you fail to live up to his precious ideals?"I don't want to say the cannibal spider-cat girl has a point, but Lann was quick to turn on Wendy the second she stopped being who he thought she was. "What did your service to Hosilla entail?" "It was simple. I lured those I deemed worthy into the Maze. To the rest I told stories of the horrors of the Maze, making them stay away. It all hung in the balance when the cave walls shuddered, and many of the young ones decided that the time of their great exodus had come. I had no doubt that Hosilla would dispatch a dozen young neathers easily — but what would become of the Maze if all the tribes poured in?" "So, when Lann ran off looking for the angel's sword, I went after him — not to help him, but to make sure that the sword never reached Neathholm. It's a pity that you got involved and stopped me from killing him... but then again, the evening gong has not yet been struck." "You sicken me." "I've heard enough." "Then you know which one of us you need. Take me with you and I will give you an army of neathers." "Don't fall for her empty words. Wenduag despises everyone but herself. As soon as you show any weakness, she'll betray you just like she betrayed us." A lot of those questions above were under the broad heading of "questions for Wenduag." Thankfully that's the majority of the discussion. Now we can start winding down. "Why do you want to come with me, Lann?" Lann rubs his forehead, right in the spot where the skin and scales meet, and catches his breath. "Up there on the surface, the crusades are still going on, right? Since I'm a mongrel, that means I've got crusader blood in my veins. You could say it's my destiny, even... Anyway, I'm ready to do my duty. And, all of you crusaders get rations, right? With vegetables? I'll be killing demons and be well fed for doing it — that's not life, that's a dream come true." "I'm sorry you trusted Wenduag instead of me, and that you didn't show the Light of Heaven to Sull. But she can be very persuasive — she honed her skills on all of us in the tribe! I'm asking you — believe me when I say that I won't let you down. I have nothing to lose down here apart from my chief's distrust and my friendship with the giant roaches. I'll do whatever the crusade needs." "The angel deemed you worthy of his power, not just his sword, to light the path in the darkness, so I can trust you too. Seems fair to me." "Are you really that desperate to go to the surface, Lann? Why didn't you run away before? You know why: the uplanders will never accept us. Don't pretend you're going for food rations. Then, why? For death? For glory? If it's death you seek, you're sure to find it." Lann calmly stares Wenduag down, his fists clenching. "Maybe I'll be able to find something on the surface that you can't get down here: a way to help the mongrels. A way to stop our tribes from having to follow scum like you." "Why do you want to help me, Wenduag?" "You think I'm just a freak from the catacombs... but neathers are faster, stronger, and tougher than you uplanders. Take me with you and I'll build you an army of neathers! I'll lure them out of this hole, we'll round them all up — every last tribe — and perform the ritual. And then..." Her cat-like gaze is locked on yours, her pupils blown wide. "You will be a power to be reckoned with on the surface! Many of the neathers will be no better than the mindless beasts we encountered in the dungeons. But there will also be those who can overcome the fog and be like me. I will lead them into battle and you will command us all!" "You trusted me from the beginning and hid the angel's light from that idiot Sull. Keep listening to me and a glorious future awaits us! Just don't become too reliant on Heaven's light." Wenduag smirks. "Remember what happened to the angel who wielded it before you.Despite how this appears, Wendy is not the patently evil option that she appears to be. She will not betray us because as powerful as demons can be, we are smart and fight with cunning. Savamelekh is a very high level demon and we sent him packing with a fraction of our potential power. Likewise, Lann is not the straightforward good choice he also appears to be. Both are extremely powerful combatants, and both are willing to offer advice if you ask. Wendy's advice is very pragmatic, while Lann's is more in keeping with his Lawful Neutral nature. Also it's extremely easy to get stuck in a romance with Lann because you were nice to him. If we choose to romance Wendy, then it'll be something we explicitly start and express interest in. "Alright, I've made my decision." "I hope we're not taking this girl with us. She'll sell us to the first demon she sees." "If we're befriending monsters in order to fight the demons, why not join forces with the strongest of them? Isn't that the rational choice? They're both equally hideous — neither of them will improve the aesthetics of our little band." "Come with me, Wenduag." Lann shakes his head. "You're making a mistake. If some priest ever winds up down here, I'll ask him to pray for your soul. But I doubt it'll help you." Wenduag's eyes gleam with triumph. "Who cares what you think? The mistress has made her choice." She turns to you. "Lann knows too much. He must die." "You're right. I know everything. And I also know where I'm not wanted. So I think I'll just go and have a chat with Sull." "Leave while I'm still in a good mood, Lann." "If this is you in a good mood, then maybe I'm lucky we're parting ways now."Even if we attacked him, he would dodge it. Nor is Lisbeth the sort of person who would do that.  Lann runs off. "He got away. Don't worry, Lann, I'll get you!" Wenduag turns to you. "Wait here, mistress, I will bring Sull and the other uplanders. We'll make sure everyone knows that Lann failed to save anyone and fled like a coward." Chief Sull: Chief Sull appears flanked by mongrels. The journey has taken its toll on him — his breath is labored and the sweat is dripping from his bloated face. "What... what'sish?"  Anevia gives a low whistle. "Well, I'll be damned... Turns out old Hulrun isn't as crazy as we all thought... There really were demons down here! I should've listened and sent a patrol down here, drat it..." From the top... "You said you were in charge of reconnaissance for the Eagle Watch, Anevia. How could you miss a nest of demons beneath Kenabres?" Anevia sighs. "Yeah right, like it wasn't enough that I sniffed after every drat shadow in the city. Everybody knows the stories about the demons living beneath the streets of Kenabres — those tales are as old as the crusades themselves! I messed up, but you fixed my mistake, so... thanks." "How's your leg?" Anevia winces slightly but forces a smile. "Better than yesterday. Worse than the day before. I'm not gonna die, don't worry!" "The maze was full of dangers, but we dealt with them." Wenduag crosses her arms. "I sensed that the Maze was an evil place. And so it was. There was a demon sitting right in the center of it, with spells to dull our minds — we barely managed to overpower him." "When we reached the cultists' lair, that's when we saw Lann. He ran like the coward he is, abandoning the young ones to be mauled by the demon."Chief Sull: Sull looks at the unconscious mongrels laid out on the ground. "Yesh... Lann ish too hashty. Will we survive if we listen to people like him? No. Lann ish not one of ush. He doesh not undershtand our path. You undershtand Wenduag. You saved ush." "Always thought you were a decent sort. Respect." "You need to look after the young mongrels." "They're out for the count, but when they wake up, Chief, you'll see that these experiments have made them stronger. They survived. They're warriors now."Chief Sull: "As long as they can hunt. The resht can wait. Uplander, and you, Wenduag, you saved them. That'sh what mattersh. We will help them from here. But if they want to go up to the shurface... I don't know if I there'sh anything I can do to shtop them." "It's time to get out of here." "I'm going with the uplanders, Chief. The Maze holds no more secrets now. I have to go further."Chief Sull: Sull heaves a sigh. "Hmph... You alwaysh had to go further than everybody elshe. But what can I do? Go on then, but make shure to come back to ush somehow. But where are you going? Where'sh the way out?" "I think I've worked it out." Wenduag searches Hosilla's body and shows you some papers and a key. "If there's a key, there's a door. If there's a letter, then it was intended for someone." Anevia's eyes quickly skim over the letter and she passes it to you. "Those cheeky sons of...! This is all the information on the cultists in the city — their meeting places, passwords, their secret hideouts. I think we should show this to whoever's in charge of Kenabres right now. As soon as we get back to the surface, we'll find out what's what!"Items received: Cultist's Dispatch  We'll meet Minagho next time.  And just like that, we're through the first dungeon of the game!  Just dozens more to go.   Right. Let's move on.   End of Prologue Encyclopedia Golarionnica Cultist's Dispatch
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Jul 21, 2022 01:31
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one of the things I will give WotR a bunch of credit for is that while the alignment system in general is dumb as hell, it plays with it in some interesting ways. normally Lawful Neutral is a boring as hell judge or bureaucrat or automaton. Lann is, instead, someone who will put up with some (but not all) morally dubious poo poo on behalf of a hierarchy. that's a nice approach to it. Seelah accomplishes being a Lawful Good (red flag) Paladin (red flag) who's really stupid (LARGE red flag) while still being a fun character to play with, mostly because unlike every combination of those traits before in D+D history she doesn't have a big ego about it. She's a cog in a machine that's designed to do something good, she's okay with not having a clear picture of how this is all supposed to work. even dear sweet Definitely Neutral Camellia is a pretty good take on her alignment, because the question "how the gently caress does a society allow someone like this to walk free" is answered pretty well by "because the successful ones learn how to hide it."
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Jul 21, 2022 01:34
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The alignment system is one of the most dogged gygaxisms left in the game genre. 5e has been gradually moving towards dropping the system altogether but still isn't there yet.
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Jul 21, 2022 01:49
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quote:spell slots are a bullshit system that I hate I just wanted to express my agreement with this. I'm always interested in hearing about alternate magic systems in games because I am so sick of 'Vancian' casting. The inverted commas are because I am not sure how much these games still resemble that. Having established our mutual dislike, are there any mods for the resting system? or the casting system? I'm not a big fan of 'just rest whenever unless you're in an active fight', but this doesn't strike me as an improvement. As for the second question, you really made me think about how the lovely resting systems are a product of lovely casting systems. NoNotTheMindProbe posted:The alignment system is one of the most dogged gygaxisms left in the game genre. 5e has been gradually moving towards dropping the system altogether but still isn't there yet. It works poorly in practice but I like it in theory. We live in a world where morality is arbitrary and entirely a construct of time, culture, world events etc. Since we don't live in a world of definite morality, we can't conceive of such a concept and human adaptations of same in stories really suffer. However, this being fantasy I like the concept of there being a discrete moral compass and living in a world where someone can be barred from things by god(s) due to their actions and morals and that there can exist alternate plans that are the product of humanity's tendencies towards law, chaos, good and evil. JustJeff88 fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Jul 21, 2022 |
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Jul 21, 2022 02:14
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JustJeff88 posted:I just wanted to express my agreement with this. I'm always interested in hearing about alternate magic systems in games because I am so sick of 'Vancian' casting. The inverted commas are because I am not sure how much these games still resemble that. Toybox. Legitimately. You can put a bandage on the rest/cast system by using the cheats menu to give yourself infinite casts. Or make casts reset after each combat. Or you can bind a hotkey to the "instantly rest everyone" button. You can also use Toybox to put a multiplier on casts per day if you want to straddle the line between cheating and not. Or you could increase buff durations too. 10x buff length makes most common buffs generally last more than an hour of realtime. If you're not constantly casting Bless/Protection From Alignment/Etc, you'll get a lot more mileage out of your limited cast slots. In fact, you could slot up a bunch of buffs, cast those, slot up your attack spells, rest, and less than 20 seconds on the buff will have passed. Outside of like... one exception I will be pointing out, Wrath doesn't have harsh time limits like Kingmaker did. So there's really nothing lost by resting, beyond a date on a fictional calendar moving forward.
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Jul 21, 2022 02:33
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NoNotTheMindProbe posted:The alignment system is one of the most dogged gygaxisms left in the game genre. 5e has been gradually moving towards dropping the system altogether but still isn't there yet. the answer to the alignment system is that it isn't a representation of personality or some rigid metric of morality. It's affiliation / afterlife-draft-pick. Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos aren't just topics for philosophy students to argue; they are actual cosmic forces at work in D&D/PF settings. If you're Good aligned, it doesn't mean that Gary Gygax thinks you're swell, it means you are aligned with the cosmic forces of Good. Do you believe in justice and that laws tempered by compassion are the best way to keep everyone happy and safe? You're Lawful Good, and will be joining the Lawful Good Archons when you die. Do you believe in survival of the strongest and that you should be able to do whatever you want, whenever and wherever you want, to whomever you want? You're Chaotic Evil, and you're going to be a Demon when you die. Etc, etc. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:Lawful Good (red flag) Paladin (red flag) Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:even dear sweet Definitely Neutral Camellia is a pretty good take on her alignment, because the question "how the gently caress does a society allow someone like this to walk free" is answered pretty well by "because the successful ones learn how to hide it." if Camellia had learned how to hide it, we'd be finding out that Camellia was Evil months from now when it's dramatically revealed. Instead we figured it out immediately; and even if we hadn't, apparently her battle cries are distinctly psychopathic? She is not a good take on the alignment. Camellia's only getting away with it because the beta testers who complained were morons.
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Jul 21, 2022 03:22
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DoubleNegative posted:Toybox. Legitimately. You can put a bandage on the rest/cast system by using the cheats menu to give yourself infinite casts. Or make casts reset after each combat. Or you can bind a hotkey to the "instantly rest everyone" button. You can also use Toybox to put a multiplier on casts per day if you want to straddle the line between cheating and not. Or you could increase buff durations too. Thank you for the ideas. I just bought this game on the GOG summer sale. It will probably languish with all of my many other unplayed RPGs, but I knew right off that this wasn't a game that could be enjoyed 'vanilla'. NullBlack posted:the answer to the alignment system is that it isn't a representation of personality or some rigid metric of morality. It's affiliation / afterlife-draft-pick. Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos aren't just topics for philosophy students to argue; they are actual cosmic forces at work in D&D/PF settings. If you're Good aligned, it doesn't mean that Gary Gygax thinks you're swell, it means you are aligned with the cosmic forces of Good. Do you believe in justice and that laws tempered by compassion are the best way to keep everyone happy and safe? You're Lawful Good, and will be joining the Lawful Good Archons when you die. Do you believe in survival of the strongest and that you should be able to do whatever you want, whenever and wherever you want, to whomever you want? You're Chaotic Evil, and you're going to be a Demon when you die. Etc, etc. I agree with all of this. I'm used to Cheesy Evil in these games so it's not surprising to see it again, but that's what I do like about alignment: unlike the so-called 'real world', there are discrete cosmic forces wrapped around alignment that genuinely mean something. In a lot of D&D-related settings, the planes or at least deities are formed by all of those aspects of human morality and behaviour. If people stopped being chaotic completely, for example, the Abyss, Limbo and perhaps a few other planes would cease to exist.
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Jul 21, 2022 03:36
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3.5ed webcomic Order of the Stick does alignment quite well I think: 
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Jul 21, 2022 03:58
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I'm gonna be recording the first part of act 1 soon and I've made up my mind to use a couple of mercenaries as fill for the team. One of them is going to be Zenic because I have a scythe in mind that I really want her to use. But who and what should the second be? Here's my list of current and future companions. Future companion names are naturally spoilered. Lisbeth: Ninja - Martial dex user Wenduag: Fighter - Ranged dex user Seelah & OSHA: Paladin/Bully - Martial str users Camellia: Shaman - dex user/druid spells/hexes Woljif: Arcane Trickster - Martial dex user/support caster Zenic: Mutation Warrior - Martial str user Ember: Stigmatized Witch - Spontaneous caster cha user Nenio: Scroll Savant - Wizard subclass, int user Daeran: Oracle of some sort - Spontaneous caster cha user Regill: Sir Not Appearing In This Game Sosiel: Cleric - Wis/Str user Arueshelae: Ranger - Ranged dex user Greybor: Slayer - Martial str user Trever: Lmao - Lmfao EDIT: It looks like what the team will need "most" is an arcane magic user. DoubleNegative fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Jul 21, 2022 |
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Jul 21, 2022 04:01
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sebmojo posted:3.5ed webcomic Order of the Stick does alignment quite well I think: Super tiny image, my man. I would like to see this but it doesn't expand when I click on it; can you repost? DoubleNegative posted:I'm gonna be recording the first part of act 1 soon and I've made up my mind to use a couple of mercenaries as fill for the team. One of them is going to be Zenic because I have a scythe in mind that I really want her to use. But who and what should the second be? Here's my list of current and future companions. Future companion names are naturally spoilered. I don't know enough about this game to say. My P&P gaming dies died with 2e D&D Edit: Why is the last name on the list so, um, funny? JustJeff88 fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Jul 21, 2022 |
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Jul 21, 2022 04:03
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Are alchemists any good? They seem like a unique class and not something that could be included as an archetype under an existing one.JustJeff88 posted:Thank you for the ideas. I just bought this game on the GOG summer sale. It will probably languish with all of my many other unplayed RPGs, but I knew right off that this wasn't a game that could be enjoyed 'vanilla'. CRPGs are like KFC for me. Every now and again I think I want to eat it and then I do eat it and remember why I don't. WotR is holding up so far but I think the crusade mechanics are going to wear thing before long. NoNotTheMindProbe fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Jul 21, 2022 |
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Jul 21, 2022 04:21
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JustJeff88 posted:Super tiny image, my man. I would like to see this but it doesn't expand when I click on it; can you repost? They're basically a secret/bonus character that is only available very late and has an absolutely godawful mix of classes. And because when you respec companions you can only swap around choices going back to their join point (i.e. if a character joins your party as a 5th level wizard, you can't change that), you can't actually fix the issue - specifically they join at 14th level so you've only got 6 more levels to play with. I'm fairly sure Owlcat knows very well it's a terrible mix and didn't actually expect anyone to use the character unless they felt like challenging themselves. NoNotTheMindProbe posted:Are alchemists any good? They seem like a unique class and not something that could be included as an archetype under an existing one. Alchemists are absolutely a rather good class for quite a few reasons. The only real issue is that Mythic paths don't necessarily cater to quite them as much as more standard classes, but there's still a fair number of abilities sprinkled around them that directly benefit Alchemists. edit: As for party composition, I will point out that "Sir not appearing in this game" has some very fun interactions with a Chaotic and/or Trickster playthrough. Because as much as it might drive them insane, they will absolutely still admit it works. For a fluffy Trickster playthrough though, I'd say use the next 4 companions you acquire - all of them fit the theme fairly well. Which, if you're dedicated to using a merc, takes the party to 6. I suppose you could swap out the likely final of those 4 Daeran for Wendu, but that leaves you with a somewhat important coverage gap. Wendu also just doesn't fit a Trickster playthrough the best - storywise she's generally better if you're either leaning into her "Survival of the Fittest" mentality, or else trying to disprove it - and Trickster's story really doesn't lean either of those ways. Lord Koth fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Jul 21, 2022 |
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Jul 21, 2022 04:50
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DoubleNegative posted:I'm gonna be recording the first part of act 1 soon and I've made up my mind to use a couple of mercenaries as fill for the team. One of them is going to be Zenic because I have a scythe in mind that I really want her to use. But who and what should the second be? Here's my list of current and future companions. Future companion names are naturally spoilered. Showing off the game, especially on the trickster path, you pretty much have to bring along the spoilered Wizard subclass int user imho.
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Jul 21, 2022 04:56
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bagrada posted:Showing off the game, especially on the trickster path, you pretty much have to bring along the spoilered Wizard subclass int user imho. Here's the thing... Something about the game is turbo bugged for me at the moment. I don't know why, but it's not reducing the count of items I use. The spoilered wizard specializes in using scrolls. I'm sure you can see the problem here. While it's true I can discard items after I use them, it's adding a lot of extra micro to a process that shouldn't need it. Also I have "distant companions can comment on the situation" checked, so the spoilered wizard will be able to chime in to almost every conversation. I think there's two that the option breaks.
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Jul 21, 2022 05:13
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Lord Koth posted:They're basically a secret/bonus character that is only available very late and has an absolutely godawful mix of classes. And because when you respec companions you can only swap around choices going back to their join point (i.e. if a character joins your party as a 5th level wizard, you can't change that), you can't actually fix the issue - specifically they join at 14th level so you've only got 6 more levels to play with. I'm fairly sure Owlcat knows very well it's a terrible mix and didn't actually expect anyone to use the character unless they felt like challenging themselves. Interesting and unfortunate. Does a mod or mods exist to rebuild a character from scratch at all? The BG games, for example, have mods that reset to level 1 any characters who join the party and even let the player give them any class wanted. Of course, character building in those games is not nearly as nuanced/ridiculously complicated (pick your own poison there) as it is here.
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Jul 21, 2022 05:27
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I went poking into my actual copy of the rules.. I do not understand why you can only rest once per 24 hours. That's purely an owlcat invention for some reason. That aside.. you're entirely skipping one of the (non-secret) party members? I'm pretty sure that's only possible if you tell them to piss off. I'm pretty sure if you ignore him the first time around he shows up later on his own specifically to make him unmissable. He's honestly one of my favourite melee companions to have around because he can abuse a very specific glitch even harder than Seelah. I've got a lot of opinions on the companions, but mister "The game cannot physically handle all my multiclassing" is the only one I'd really call actively awful. You can mod the game to fix him from scratch, but it's funnier to me that he exists the way he does. Not an exaggeration, my copy would physically freeze up for 10-20 seconds every time I opened his level up window, even longer after I gave him another class or two for my own amusement.
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Jul 21, 2022 09:05
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JustJeff88 posted:Super tiny image, my man. I would like to see this but it doesn't expand when I click on it; can you repost? Ya sorry, fixed
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Jul 21, 2022 09:20
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LukasR23 posted:That aside.. you're entirely skipping one of the (non-secret) party members? I'm pretty sure that's only possible if you tell them to piss off. The short explanation is that certain companions will leave after you ascend to a specific mythic path. Camellia will leave basically instantly after you become an Aeon, Seelah will leave eventually after you become a Lich, and the one you're asking about (as much as I like them) can't abide serving under a Trickster. I'm not sure who leaves for Demon. I'm pretty sure nobody will leave over Angel and Azata, though. And technically everyone leaves if you follow one of the hidden paths.
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Jul 21, 2022 09:23
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DoubleNegative posted:The short explanation is that certain companions will leave after you ascend to a specific mythic path. Camellia will leave basically instantly after you become an Aeon, Seelah will leave eventually after you become a Lich, and the one you're asking about (as much as I like them) can't abide serving under a Trickster. He leaves, but not for ages. I think he's probably the most well-written companion and I think it's a shame you won't show him off a bit.
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Jul 21, 2022 09:34
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Huh, I read he can actually stay on the path if you pass a hard Persuade check? He even gets an unique ending since as mentioned he and Trickster don't gell at all. Also there's a companion who leaves under Demon in certain circumstances, I think.
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Jul 21, 2022 09:46
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DoubleNegative posted:The short explanation is that certain companions will leave after you ascend to a specific mythic path. Camellia will leave basically instantly after you become an Aeon, Seelah will leave eventually after you become a Lich, and the one you're asking about (as much as I like them) can't abide serving under a Trickster. It's definitely possible to keep them on Trickster, it's just difficult. People remain incredibly amused at the ending slide they get on that route too. And yeah, Angel and Azata lose no one. Demon possibly loses one depending on the choices you've been making regarding someone. Aeon loses one. Lich is very, very likely to lose 3... or even more.
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Jul 21, 2022 09:48
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Edit: Way too spoilery for a bad joke.
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Jul 21, 2022 09:53
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SoundwaveAU posted:He leaves, but not for ages. I think he's probably the most well-written companion and I think it's a shame you won't show him off a bit. when i saw his portrait/race/class/faction before the game was out i was so certain that I would hate him and never use him. owlcat really did the impossible by making him cool as hell. really most of the companions are at least good and i really love a good handful of them. except loving greybor. blargh! plus your final quest sucked before they patched it!
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Jul 21, 2022 10:00
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DoubleNegative posted:The short explanation is that certain companions will leave after you ascend to a specific mythic path. Camellia will leave basically instantly after you become an Aeon, Seelah will leave eventually after you become a Lich, and the one you're asking about (as much as I like them) can't abide serving under a Trickster. The one who leaves for demon is the special character you have to do a bunch of extra work to pick up if you want them in act 2, iirc? When we see them I’ll point it out if this didn’t make clear which one.
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Jul 21, 2022 10:07
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LukasR23 posted:2nd Edition has made CC a lot less absurd while still being useful. Having three actions per turn that can be used for different things lets you do a lot more with levels of crowd control, especially now that failing a save isn't just "Okay, you're done, go take a smoke break while we have fun." There's also the Degrees of success system and the general much tighter balancing when it comes to numbers... I could talk about it at length but I'd rather not derail the thread too much. Point is I'm a big fan. In the original adventure, there are no special Mythic Paths, just one way to power. The game is more awesome in that regard. We also get more named recurring enemies such as Savamelekh. In the original adventure, the corrupted mongrels are a separate tribe from those helping us. Wendaug is the only named member, and a brief hostile encounter. Other named characters such as Lann, Horgus, and Anevia have expanded roles in the game. Seelah is an official Pathfinder iconic character, while Camellia was created by the game writers. Hosillia is the starter villain for the original adventure, but Savamelakh was created by Owlcat. I agree that the resting mechanic sucks. Quasits are among the least of demons, the Abyss equivalent of Imps. The wound on our chest is also an Owlcat game feature. I would have put it in a less embarrassing place. Thanks for explaining why I like Wendaug better as a character. I see Camellia as more “blatant display of arrogant psycho” while being useful enough to tolerate. If you could only hear her combat dialogue… “The world in crimson! The spirits demand your blood!” I have heard enough LPers praise her buffing and rapier skills to know she comes in handy despite this mania. The character you call “Sir Not Appearing in this game” is one of my favorite rpg jerks. He also has some excellent interaction with Tricksters, including an awesome character ending. Hopefully you meant “interesting sidebar commentator”. He’s not the one man wrecking crew he aspires to be in combat unless heavily modified, so if not for his charming personality he could take a back seat. Didn’t know he leaves Tricksters, though, I heard different. I looked things up at Reddit, also read what people posted while I typed, and learned that he does stick around and gets his cool ending which I’ll mention if DN doesn’t keep him around and we get that far- IF you can pass a difficult Persuasion check. Toybox should help with that. There is a Mythic Path where everyone leaves you… buzz buzz buzz. I personally would bring in an Alchemist too. Buffs, grenades, mutations. What’s not to like?
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Jul 21, 2022 10:13
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Brief correction: Bolt of Justice is a high level mythic ability but you can get it WAY earlier than act 4. Merged spellbooks mean that Clerics and Oracles can get it as early as act 2.
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Jul 21, 2022 11:35
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The merc system is basically the entire reason why I just use Toybox to allow myself to respec characters if I want to. I prefer to put actual characters in my party.
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Jul 21, 2022 11:40
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Here's another vote for trying to keep Sir Not Appearing In This Game around. Regarding mercenaries, I'm going to be awfully pragmatic and suggest a bard of some kind; that way, you get a good buffer and some arcane magic in one neat package.
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Jul 21, 2022 12:06
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S N-a-i-t-g is an amazing character I was glad to have on both runs through.
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Jul 21, 2022 12:33
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Lich lets you keep everyone until the very end. A good chunk of the party are outright terrified of you.
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Jul 21, 2022 13:12
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Keldulas posted:The merc system is basically the entire reason why I just use Toybox to allow myself to respec characters if I want to. I prefer to put actual characters in my party. I am kind of the opposite. I don't really play games for character and story, and I could count on one hand the games I have seen in my life where the story really impressed itself upon me. I would rather experiment with all of the game mechanics and have a varied party in terms of all the classes, abilities, spells etc. My first playthrough of BG years ago I exploited the MP game to make all of my own characters.
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Jul 21, 2022 15:29
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At least there isn't a mechanic in this game that actively punishes you for using mercs to do them unlike in Kingmaker.
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Jul 21, 2022 16:29
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Regarding SNAitG, all I had heard constantly was how he would leave for Trickster. So I had to assume it would be like unlocking Lich where Seelah leaves basically immediately and made plans based on that. Hearing he sticks around is good news because I actually like him quite a lot. So no worries on skipping him. He's too valuable to leave on the table. It also means that a merc to replace him isn't as critical. I still want to roll with two mercs anyway, but now one doesn't have to be a replacement bruiser. So far I've heard interest in Alchemist and Bard. Because they're so useful, Alchemist I'm actually planning to cover with one of the next companions! (Rogue archetype to Vivisectionist) Bard is also a great suggestion. I'm going to record about half of act 1 today, so I'm open to any other suggestions. Also worth noting that I'm not planning on using Woljif much in the party because he's covering ground Lisbeth already does. But Vivi will give him potion brewing which will be invaluable for resting in camp. And the archetype will still make him deadly as hell when we do use him.
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Jul 21, 2022 19:33
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