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Yinlock posted:People should obviously have to live in the places they govern yes, i'm not sure why this is up for debate at all You're right that it looks bad, and you're right that it doesn't actually matter because class and race are far greater determinants of a person's political and economic interests than where they live geographically. The thing is that laws should prohibit stuff that's actually bad, not stuff that looks bad. And of course it's ridiculous to say that a congressional representative or senator "governs" their district or state.
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Jul 18, 2022 16:47
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Civilized Fishbot posted:You're right that it looks bad, and you're right that it doesn't actually matter because class and race are far greater determinants of a person's political and economic interests than where they live geographically. They made a movie about this issue. That movie is called Cop Land, and it stars the wonderful Sylvester Stallone, who really is an outstanding actor, even if there are credible reports that he enjoys dolphin bestiality porn. In the movie Cop Land, it's about a bunch of cops who don't live in the city they work in. So like, the cops live in one city that like this small town, then they drive to work into a big city. So in the movie, the cops are all corrupt, and I think in real life, you want your public servants to live in the place they work in, so that they don't get to make one place lovely while not having to deal with making it lovely. So if you want to see an example of this issue, you should watch Cop Land starring Sylvester Stallone.
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Jul 18, 2022 17:00
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Isn't that exactly the situation of cops in a lot of major cities, particularly NYC? I'm sure the movie is a good illustration but there are plenty of real-life examples.
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Jul 18, 2022 17:05
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Halloween Jack posted:Isn't that exactly the situation of cops in a lot of major cities, particularly NYC? I'm sure the movie is a good illustration but there are plenty of real-life examples. Chicago at least requires nearly all public employees, include police and fire to live in city limits. What ends up happening is they mostly cluster in two areas on the edges of the city. There are a few ways to get a waiver to not live in the city, but those are typically only for high-demand jobs where finding qualified people is tough.
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Jul 18, 2022 17:14
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Bird in a Blender posted:Chicago at least requires nearly all public employees, include police and fire to live in city limits. What ends up happening is they mostly cluster in two areas on the edges of the city. There are a few ways to get a waiver to not live in the city, but those are typically only for high-demand jobs where finding qualified people is tough. Cop Land is set in New Jersey.
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Jul 18, 2022 17:19
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Bird in a Blender posted:Chicago at least requires nearly all public employees, include police and fire to live in city limits. What ends up happening is they mostly cluster in two areas on the edges of the city. There are a few ways to get a waiver to not live in the city, but those are typically only for high-demand jobs where finding qualified people is tough. Ohio recently band these kinds of laws at the state level to ensure that white supremacists always have a job opportunities brutalizing black folks in the city
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Jul 18, 2022 17:26
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Bird in a Blender posted:Chicago at least requires nearly all public employees, include police and fire to live in city limits. What ends up happening is they mostly cluster in two areas on the edges of the city. There are a few ways to get a waiver to not live in the city, but those are typically only for high-demand jobs where finding qualified people is tough. Yeah as a Chicago resident my experience is that those laws don't do poo poo for the exact reason you describe. There are neighborhoods for cops/firefighters/teachers which are suburbs in all but name. The problem with cops is that they're violent enforcers of the bourgeois state with virtually no accountability for fraud or brutality, not that they live on the incorrect side of an invisible city border. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Jul 18, 2022 |
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Jul 18, 2022 17:32
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mandatory lesbian posted:When i was a kid in va and mark woernor was up for election, this republican i knew would rail on about him being from conneticutt or new england or whatever. It was apparently a big thing. It obviously didnt work against him, so why should i believe itd work in this case. Outsider isn't a guaranteed attack, it depends on how good the local candidate is at selling what's ultimately a charisma-based attack, and how good the outsider candidate is at not acting like a stereotypical tourist who's constantly just a little out of place. Ultimately, it's not about where Oz is actually from. It's about how he acts, whether he's able to fit in with the Pennsylvania lifestyle, whether he's able to see past the tourist traps designed to appeal to outsiders. It's that he behaves in an out-of-touch manner. It's the local-politics version of saying your opponent doesn't know how much a gallon of milk costs.
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Jul 18, 2022 20:25
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Main Paineframe posted:Outsider isn't a guaranteed attack, it depends on how good the local candidate is at selling what's ultimately a charisma-based attack, and how good the outsider candidate is at not acting like a stereotypical tourist who's constantly just a little out of place. its also a mix that oz is just a loving terrible canidate in a bunch of different ways from all angles and i have only seen 1 sign for him in the red area i live in for him. mastriano is the one that scares me way way more because he is a true believe evangelical nut who will go for desantis but way way worse. i dont think he wins because i dont know anyone outside the hardliner chuds who like him but he is legit scary. that being said, he is very behind in most polls and unlike oz, he is playing only to the hard right including open nazis. https://www.inquirer.com/politics/election/doug-mastriano-andrew-torba-gab-shapiro-20220718.html Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Jul 18, 2022 |
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Jul 18, 2022 20:50
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Any thoughts on MD governor? Tom Perez, Peter Franchot, and Wes Moore are the ones with a chance to win and nothing is really tilting me toward any of them. Moore seems the most open minded, but he has no government experience and does too much “I was in the military and then a CEO” even if it was a nonprofit. Franchot seems the most centrist, so I think I’ve written him off. Perez seems okay but I didn’t like him as DNC chair.
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Jul 19, 2022 00:01
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You attack on any and every angle you have, because this is total war and there's nothing to be gained by taking the high road.
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Jul 19, 2022 09:05
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Sharkie posted:I mostly agree, but I don't agree that "the issues don't matter." I think the issues do matter, which is why you should try to win. They don't matter as much as the charisma of the candidate and the shitslinging when it comes to the electorate and their willingness to vote. I wish they mattered more but history clearly shows otherwise.
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Jul 19, 2022 10:01
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Ghost Leviathan posted:You attack on any and every angle you have, because this is total war and there's nothing to be gained by taking the high road. This. For every Democrat patting themselves on the back for being the bigger person and doing things the  correct/decorum way, there's a republican challenger being sworn in while still dripping the poo poo they were gleefully rolling around in during the campaign.
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Jul 19, 2022 13:31
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Dr. Oz is catching poo poo from Fetterman's campaign about being from New Jersey because Dr. Oz has almost zero history in Pennsylvania. From what I can glean on Wikipedia, Dr. Oz went to medical school at UPenn and changed his voter registration to Pennsylvania in 2020. It just reeks of being an opportunist and a naked grab for power. I've only been living in Pittsburgh for fifteen months and feel like I have a better established history here than he does. I have no idea how he managed to come out ahead in the Republican primary and remember the pile of undelivered mail at the post office I worked at that were just attacking Oz for that very issue. Liz Cheney caught a lot of poo poo for it in Wyoming in 2014 when she moved to Wyoming to try to primary out Senator Mike Enzi. She pulled out before the primary and she was doing the same poo poo daddy did in the seventies (except Dick Cheney grew up in Wyoming and finished undergrad at UW). She just bided her time until Cynthia Lummis decided she had enough of the House and ran in that primary in 2016 without much of a challenge.
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Jul 19, 2022 15:44
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Ghost Leviathan posted:You attack on any and every angle you have, because this is total war and there's nothing to be gained by taking the high road. I think both are needed, both shitslinging and having actual positions. What's being lost in this conversation is that your policies can greatly affect what kind of and how much donors you bring in, both small and big, which then allows you to run your shitslinging campaign and gain votes at large scale. https://www.opensecrets.org/races/candidates?cycle=2022&id=PAS1&spec=N https://www.post-gazette.com/news/p...es/202207160043 Oz's campaign is 75% self-financed. Hardly anyone is donating to him. Fetterman has five times as much cash-on-hand, almost 60% of which is from small individual donors under $200. The "Oz ain't from round here he ain't one of us you can't trust him" attack is very effective, but his ability to actually do it comes from all the people who support him. And to donate, they need to not just dislike Oz, but trust Fetterman enough that they'll want to give some of the little money they have. Being motivated enough to give $20 is a lot bigger ask than being motivated enough to vote.
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Jul 19, 2022 17:53
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Fetterman's got some problems, but I remember him as the guy who wanted to be Lt Gov so he could sit on the parole board and actually advocate for prisoners who he felt needed to be released, vs what politicians usually do which is deny everyone to look tough on crime.
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Jul 19, 2022 19:16
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Racing Stripe posted:Any thoughts on MD governor? Tom Perez, Peter Franchot, and Wes Moore are the ones with a chance to win and nothing is really tilting me toward any of them. Moore seems the most open minded, but he has no government experience and does too much “I was in the military and then a CEO” even if it was a nonprofit. Franchot seems the most centrist, so I think I’ve written him off. Perez seems okay but I didn’t like him as DNC chair.
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Jul 20, 2022 00:09
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People in Pennsylvania do hate people from Jersey, by the way. Jersey itself, also. It's a powerful, virulent hatred.
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Jul 20, 2022 01:50
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drawkcab si eman ym posted:I think Moore wins because the 2022 MD Governor's Democratic Primary electorate is 40% black. I ended up voting for the progressive who had no chance, but it looks like Moore is going to win, so I think I made the right decision. I didn't live in Maryland when Hogan got elected, so I don't know what the vibe was, but I cannot fathom the Trump style idiot who won the R nom beating out any of Perez, Moore, or Franchot. Moore should cruise, partly for the reason you mentioned. I just hope his 100% lack of any political experience of any kind isn't a hindrance!
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Jul 20, 2022 13:42
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Racing Stripe posted:I ended up voting for the progressive who had no chance, but it looks like Moore is going to win, so I think I made the right decision. I didn't live in Maryland when Hogan got elected, so I don't know what the vibe was, but I cannot fathom the Trump style idiot who won the R nom beating out any of Perez, Moore, or Franchot. Moore should cruise, partly for the reason you mentioned. I just hope his 100% lack of any political experience of any kind isn't a hindrance! Hopefully economic conditions will not push the electorate into a weird territory. I think people are generally ready for a change and lot of voters find the "outsider" narrative pretty sexy.
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Jul 20, 2022 14:44
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Eric Cantonese posted:I think people are generally ready for a change and lot of voters find the "outsider" narrative pretty sexy.
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Jul 20, 2022 16:02
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Crows Turn Off posted:That's why a number of people liked Trump, yes? Yes Trump ran on the Drain the Swamp slogan which was specifically about hating Washington politicians. People also like trump because he had the perception of being a good businessman. Of course both of those things were wildly off mark.
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Jul 20, 2022 16:10
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Small thing I’ve been wondering about for a while: People on my Twitter timeline have been poking fun at Dr Oz’s attacks on Fetterman, which fearmonger about his similarity too… Bernie Sanders!!!    They did this with Biden too, and to me it seemed laughable then as well. Biden did thoroughly kick Bernie’s rear end, but it never seemed like it was because people hated Bernie. Biden just had the name recognition and the idea that he was the best choice to beat Trump was thoroughly ingrained in people’s heads. There were reports that Trump was even afraid of Sanders, though who’s to say how accurate they are. So it was a bit of a surprise when he went to hard on “Biden=Bernie.” So did Trump’s team assume, probably wrongly, that Bernie’s poor performance against Biden was the result of a heretofore undiscovered hostility to him? Were they making overtures to the donor class, who actually do hate Bernie. Have things changed between the campaigns of Trump and Oz? Bernie’s definitely faded into the background, but I haven’t really seen hostility to him other than from left-punching Democrats. People respond to two years of attacks on “Defund the police” and attacks on The Squad work in some circles, but I thought Bernie was spared that. Sorry if this approaches re-litigating 2020. The right wing messaging machine has been frighteningly successful this year, and I thought it was a bit notable if one part of it is stupidly floundering.
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Jul 20, 2022 18:53
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Maybe somebody saw that Biden won PA 80-20 and thought it showed strong anti-Bernie sentiment, but didn't consider the fact that the race was already over (Bernie had dropped out) before the PA primary? There are certainly some Democrats who dislike Bernie, but that was the result of messaging from other Democrats, and if PA centrist Dems aren't out there slagging Fetterman - and I don't see any evidence of this happening - comparing him to Bernie probably isn't going to cost him any votes. Especially since, unlike Sanders, he proudly wears the (D). And he has the full support of leadership, who didn't even back Lamb in the primary and let him get torn apart by JF instead. I guess it's worth trying, since Fetterman is pretty solid with the left and this might be a way to cost him some with centrists, but I think they are kind of flailing. Seems like there hasn't been a poll of the race since a month ago; Cook still rates the seat as a toss-up even though Oz has never led Fetterman in a poll. Get on it, pollsters.
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Jul 20, 2022 19:07
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Dr Christmas posted:Small thing I’ve been wondering about for a while: People on my Twitter timeline have been poking fun at Dr Oz’s attacks on Fetterman, which fearmonger about his similarity too… Bernie Sanders!!! It's mostly a tool to rile up their base. It's the same reason they have a survey come out every 4 years with "[John Kerry/Barack Obama/Hillary Clinton/Bernie Sanders/Joe Biden] was rated THE MOST LIBERAL Senator in X Year!" The Dems do a similar thing by trying to tie "moderate" Republican candidates to congress or the national Republican party to try and make sure that Democratic-leaning voters don't pull the switch for them.
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Jul 20, 2022 19:50
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And that's why Terry McAuliffe blanketed my district in mailers reminding the old Republicans that Youngkin had Trump's endorsement.
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Jul 20, 2022 19:57
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It's mostly a tool to rile up their base. It's the same reason they have a survey come out every 4 years with "[John Kerry/Barack Obama/Hillary Clinton/Bernie Sanders/Joe Biden] was rated THE MOST LIBERAL Senator in X Year!" It's also part of the neverending project to frame anything to the left(and sometimes even to the right) of Ronald Reagan as DANGEROUS LEFTIST EXTREMISM
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Jul 20, 2022 20:19
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Yinlock posted:It's also part of the neverending project to frame anything to the left(and sometimes even to the right) of Ronald Reagan as DANGEROUS LEFTIST EXTREMISM Yeah, it literally doesn't matter what the actual policy position is. Everyone will always try to call the other side extremists because so many people consider themselves "about the middle" or "reasonable" regardless of where their actual political positions sit. Same thing with everything from corporate tax cuts to healthcare for people making less than $17k per year always being described as aimed at "the middle class" because somewhere north of 80% of Americans consider themselves "middle class" despite that being a statistical impossibility. And a huge amount of people in the top and bottom 10% of incomes consider themselves "middle class," so even if you frame it as aid to the rich or aid to the poor, then a lot of people wouldn't perceive that to include themselves.
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Jul 20, 2022 20:26
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I'm one of the crazy people who believes that Bernie had massive popular support but was ratfucked by horrible scared establishment Dems who should be out on a one way boat to Palau. I think Fetterman is tapping into that feeling.
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Jul 21, 2022 03:17
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:I'm one of the crazy people who believes that Bernie had massive popular support but was ratfucked by horrible scared establishment Dems who should be out on a one way boat to Palau. I think Fetterman is tapping into that feeling. I mean yeah that’s what happened.
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Jul 21, 2022 19:47
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Bernie did have massive popular support, it's very encouraging. It was enough to land him in second place, but it was not enough to win after the split field turned into 2 candidates, and Biden unified everybody else behind him. Bernie's support, the depth and breadth of it, is one of the things that truly does give me hope for the near future. We were *almost* there, and soon we'll be on top.
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Jul 21, 2022 19:54
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How are u posted:Bernie did have massive popular support, it's very encouraging. It was enough to land him in second place, but it was not enough to win after the split field turned into 2 candidates, and Biden unified everybody else behind him. Automata 10 Pack fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jul 21, 2022 |
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Jul 21, 2022 20:18
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https://twitter.com/OpenSecretsDC/status/1549810704278032385?s=20&t=pBWmIwVXTUHtkvHyURoRsQ I think it goes without saying that democrats and democratic organizations shouldn't fund or elevate far-right candidates to get a chance at maybe winning the general election. They're only going to give these shitheads a higher profile that would allow them to spew their nonsense quote:Democratic efforts to elevate more radical Republican candidates comes with an inherent risk that if those candidates win the general election, Democrats will have played a direct role in getting them elected.
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Jul 21, 2022 20:40
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theCalamity posted:https://twitter.com/OpenSecretsDC/status/1549810704278032385?s=20&t=pBWmIwVXTUHtkvHyURoRsQ This is pretty dumb and a waste of money, but I think they are really overselling the idea that Democrats influenced the races in Maryland or Illinois. Bailey won in a landslide by ~38 points and was endorsed by Trump. I don't think the less than 1% of political spending in that race done by Democrats for him gave him an almost 40 point advantage. I'm not sure what is sillier, the people giving to the crazies who were already going to win or the people sinking tens of thousands of dollars of their own money into Liz Cheney - who is going to get blown out by the crazy person like all the "moderates" have so far in Republican primaries.
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Jul 21, 2022 20:46
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Yeah, it literally doesn't matter what the actual policy position is. Everyone will always try to call the other side extremists because so many people consider themselves "about the middle" or "reasonable" regardless of where their actual political positions sit. It also sometimes tricks the center-right into thinking themselves left, and anything left of themselves as hardcore stalinism. "The middle class" is another good example yeah, because being "poor" is seen as a moral failing in capitalism so people are desperate to not be seen as poor, even if they are. Blurring the lines just turns everything into a complete clusterfuck which is a handy tool to keep the working class divided. theCalamity posted:I think it goes without saying that democrats and democratic organizations shouldn't fund or elevate far-right candidates to get a chance at maybe winning the general election. They're only going to give these shitheads a higher profile that would allow them to spew their nonsense The first time they tried this they got Donald Trump, who uh was literally president for 4 years. I'm not sure this is a winning strategy.
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Jul 21, 2022 21:04
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Yinlock posted:
They had tried is successfully in the past. Conservatives do it as well. IDK how effective it ultimately is but it's not unique to dems or new.
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Jul 21, 2022 21:31
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Yinlock posted:The first time they tried this they got Donald Trump, who uh was literally president for 4 years. I'm not sure this is a winning strategy. The first time they tried this that we are aware of, they won a Senate seat in Missouri. They also did NOT try this with Trump, maybe they were hopeful and happy with their seeming good fortune, but Trump wasn't really helped with a "he's too conservative!" campaign to trick Republicans into voting for him. Beyond that, Hillary was such a terrible candidate that the rest of the field would have probably beaten her worse than Trump, so its not a good rebuttal of that strategy for the two seperate reasons of 1) they didn't, 2) and even if they did he was probably still the guy to face.
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Jul 21, 2022 22:04
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brugroffil posted:They had tried is successfully in the past. Conservatives do it as well. IDK how effective it ultimately is but it's not unique to dems or new. If they were successful every time great, but if they gently caress up every one in a while and lose to the craziest most dangerous republican anyway that's a pretty big problem! Rigel posted:
How the Hillary Clinton campaign deliberately "elevated" Donald Trump with its "pied piper" strategy quote:In its self-described "pied piper" strategy, the Clinton campaign proposed intentionally cultivating extreme right-wing presidential candidates, hoping to turn them into the new "mainstream of the Republican Party" in order to try to increase Clinton's chances of winning. Maybe it had no effect and he would have led the pack anyway, but it is not true that they didn't try it. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Jul 21, 2022 |
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Jul 21, 2022 22:08
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VitalSigns posted:If they were successful every time great, but if they gently caress up every one in a while and lose to the craziest most dangerous republican anyway that's a pretty big problem! I stand corrected. I'll still maintain that the effort did not help Trump. I also disagree with the argument that there is any downside to this strategy whatsoever. I am not afraid of helping the shittier Republican win instead of the slightly less-lovely Republican. Any Republican winning is an unmitigated disaster, and with apologies to Ukraine, things would not have been much different for us if some other Republican was in the white house. If you think you can help a weaker candidate win the GOP nomination with just a very small amount of money, then you should consider doing it. I'll add as a fun anecdote that living right next door to Missouri, I was close to the Akin spectacle and I happened to know a lovely conservative at the time (who I since don't talk to anymore) who actually was fooled by the "he's too conservative for Missouri" trick, smugly saying that if Claire is that afraid of Akin, then he'll vote for him. I took a lot of pleasure in explaining to him that Claire wasn't afraid of Akin, and that his dumb rear end was tricked into voting for her preferred opponent.
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Jul 21, 2022 22:18
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Rigel posted:I'll add as a fun anecdote that living right next door to Missouri, I was close to the Akin spectacle and I happened to know a lovely conservative at the time (who I since don't talk to anymore) who actually was fooled by the "he's too conservative for Missouri" trick, smugly saying that if Claire is that afraid of Akin, then he'll vote for him. I took a lot of pleasure in explaining to him that Claire wasn't afraid of Akin, and that his dumb rear end was tricked into voting for her preferred opponent. I think the only thing more amazing than the degree to which spite is the prime mover of the Republican base is that Democrats still haven't really figured out a good, 3rd grade playground method to exploit the fact that their opponents will mechanically do the literal opposite of whatever they say.
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Jul 21, 2022 22:37
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