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wolrah posted:You're not wrong that with a modern cross-platform engine if you haven't done anything particularly weird you can generally produce a functional build on any platform your engine supports with relatively little effort. You are somewhat off base though. Typically from most powerful to least powerful is PCVR -> PSVR -> Oculus. If you start off targetting Oculus, you are targetting the lowend. We have never had performance issues transitioning a Oculus targeted product to PCVR. (this targets a minimum of a 970, the HTC Vive's min recommended)
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Jul 26, 2022 21:26
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Turin Turambar posted:From what I'm seeing in my Amazon, the 128gb model was out of stock since July 22nd, and the 256gb model since July 25th. They surely had been stopping the supply of devices in the last two weeks, in preparation for this. No chance to buy one now just before the price increase. Plenty in stock at Best Buy, locally and online. My sister finally got off her rear end and picked one up today after hemming and hawing over it for the past few years.
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Jul 26, 2022 21:28
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Kwolok posted:You are somewhat off base though. Typically from most powerful to least powerful is PCVR -> PSVR -> Oculus. If you start off targetting Oculus, you are targetting the lowend. We have never had performance issues transitioning a Oculus targeted product to PCVR. (this targets a minimum of a 970, the HTC Vive's min recommended) Literally the only reason we're using Steam/PCVR right now with our game is quick build testing and promotional recording in higher resolutions. If oculus had better capture tools we'd be native quest only right now and poo poo out a port later. We're also creating a poo poo ton of work doing it this way. In the end though, we're targeting quest specifically and we're finding that while the actual game code and the porting process wasn't a huge deal (in fact the team built a working quest port off our old build in a weekend, so whatever), but its incredible unoptimized at this point and THAT is the huge work. We're finding supporting pcvr is actually going to be a little bit of a headache with that specifically. Having to have multiple LODs for every single cosmetic and texture takes work and slapping everything with the decimate tool wont cut it. We seriously wouldn't even be touching PCVR at this point if we were not working with content teams for capture and what not. Theres just no money in it. The player base for PCVR just don't exist to make it worth it out of the gate.
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Jul 26, 2022 21:34
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Leal posted:I stopped using VR chat when it decided the avatar I was using was no longer usable. It was Tommy Vercetti. I can't identify as an anime, only a doughy Italian wearing a Hawaiin shirt truly replicates me irl Message me if you still want Tommy.
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Jul 26, 2022 21:44
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EbolaIvory posted:Literally the only reason we're using Steam/PCVR right now with our game is quick build testing and promotional recording in higher resolutions. If oculus had better capture tools we'd be native quest only right now and poo poo out a port later. What is your workflow/assets such that your LODs for Oculus are more performant than the same LODs for pcvr? I suppose I don't follow.
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Jul 26, 2022 21:44
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Kwolok posted:What is your workflow/assets such that your LODs for Oculus are more performant than the same LODs for pcvr? I suppose I don't follow. Pretty sure they mean that they're doing lots of work because they have to set up all their LODs and poo poo twice, once for the highly constrained Quest platform and a second for PCVR where people are going to be upset if it looks like a mobile game.
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Jul 26, 2022 21:51
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By the way, a final 'all hail Zuck (or at least all hail Zuck's shareholders money) that got me the following games thanks to doing referrals. Most of them to people here, so, thanks guys!: Red Matter 2 Vermillion Smash Drums Star Wars Tales + dlc Daedalus Ultrawings 2 Spacefolk City Pistol Whip The Thrill of the Fight In Death: Unchained Vacation Simulator Puzzling Places PowerBeatsVR Deisim The Room VR (well, I had to add 20€ from my own wallet as two games needed some extra cash after spending the credit store funds I had).
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Jul 26, 2022 21:52
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Got an index delivered. This VR thing will take a bit of getting used to. I played about one hour of Red Mars, and felt like I got used pretty fast to zooming around without feeling acceleration, but now I feel slightly sea sick sitting still. Also I was somewhat irritated by not getting the text to display quite like I felt it should look, I guess I'll have to fiddle around with the lenses/resolution or maybe that's just the way it is 
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Jul 26, 2022 22:01
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Kwolok posted:You are somewhat off base though. Typically from most powerful to least powerful is PCVR -> PSVR -> Oculus. If you start off targetting Oculus, you are targetting the lowend. We have never had performance issues transitioning a Oculus targeted product to PCVR. (this targets a minimum of a 970, the HTC Vive's min recommended) Also as EbolaIvory touched on and TIP directly points out, PC players usually expect to be able to turn the settings up, and to have settings in the first place that you might not have offered on a console build. That's more code paths, more variety, possibly even a need to upgrade assets to support higher levels of detail. Turin Turambar posted:From what I'm seeing in my Amazon, the 128gb model was out of stock since July 22nd, and the 256gb model since July 25th. They surely had been stopping the supply of devices in the last two weeks, in preparation for this. No chance to buy one now just before the price increase.
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Jul 26, 2022 22:02
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Kwolok posted:What is your workflow/assets such that your LODs for Oculus are more performant than the same LODs for pcvr? I suppose I don't follow. Because they arent the same LODs? We want PCVR to actually be high poly good fun times which means some of the assets we're using have to be redone or scaled down from the orig. The assets we're using are insane high res on top of them being cosmetics which also have to scale for each graphic setting and what have you. We're not just taking a wall texture or something, we're talking all kinds of stuff that needs to be scaled, some more than others, etc. Hell we're still just test fitting a lot of things and that alone is heaps of work, then scaling it for multiple platforms and hardware? Woof! Just as an example, thers 86k polys in this one model. That clearly wont work with 6 of them in a lobby together on the quest. XD Its just more art work at the end of the day and we're not trying to poo poo out the quest assets directly to pcvr and have people bummed out that its not "any better" ya know? More so if people are grinding out cosmetics to play barbie dress up.
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Jul 26, 2022 22:21
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EbolaIvory, in what company do you work? If it can be said.
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Jul 26, 2022 22:27
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If I want to play No Man's Sky, should I familiarise myself with it before jumping into VR or just crack straight into it?
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Jul 26, 2022 22:29
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Turin Turambar posted:EbolaIvory, in what company do you work? If it can be said. I run a start up with a friend that does educational esports stuff and jumped into game publishing with a group of devs I've known for a bit. We've kinda taken over creative direction so heaps of poo poo is changing and we're doing art crap right now so its all fresh. Game is a 3v3 (FFA in some modes) arena bow shooter that we're building as a comp level esport game. Kind of fits in real well with the EDU sector of gaming.  I know thats a bit vague, and I'll probably post more about it later, but we're not trying to get any attention to the thing just yet. With all that said, if you do any kind of minor sleuthing you can figure out what game it is and all that, we're just kinda keeping it semi low key right now. But if you do find it, reach out on wherever you found it and we can get you access if you wanna gently caress around. (This kinda goes for anyone willing to give us feedback tbh.) I swear I'll spam the thread when we have something I'd be willing to just let go publicly. But our build right now is VERY sketchy. Its super slap dash with some things because we have very little dev time and we're trying to focus on getting gameplay solid and the initial assets in so we can capture some media content. chippy posted:If I want to play No Man's Sky, should I familiarise myself with it before jumping into VR or just crack straight into it? If the interface got any upgrades I'd say just jump in VR. It wasn't unplayable at launch and I knew jack poo poo so I can't imagine its worse now. EbolaIvory fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Jul 26, 2022 |
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Jul 26, 2022 22:34
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chippy posted:If I want to play No Man's Sky, should I familiarise myself with it before jumping into VR or just crack straight into it? Also, I just finished Alyx and I am now feeling bereft so would welcome any suggestion of dope things to play. EbolaIvory posted:
Nice, thanks.
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Jul 26, 2022 22:37
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EbolaIvory posted:Because they arent the same LODs? You don't need to do this though. My point is, if you just want to port your Oculus title, it generally isn't much work. Sure, if you give yourself more work to do, there will be more work...
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Jul 26, 2022 22:39
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I worked on a high tech archery tag startup once. Doing that, but in LBE VR, sounds pretty rad.
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Jul 26, 2022 22:40
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Kwolok posted:You don't need to do this though. My point is, if you just want to port your Oculus title, it generally isn't much work. Sure, if you give yourself more work to do, there will be more work... Without actually discussing the plans for our game, I think you vastly underestimate the manpower required for cosmetic artists and time consumed flopping things around for multiple LODs. Again we can't just shove all this poo poo into blender and hit decimate, and the assets we're using are not drag and drop, We have to rip them entirely apart, cut off huge sections of them, and reshape almost everything. This is BEFORE tearing them apart for individual parts for cosmetic slots. Some of these initial assets have upwards of 6+ pieces of cosmetics not counting the base skins for said model. This at a minimum of 3 LODs on 60+ Models isn't quick work. This all would be easier if our artist was doing everything from scratch but we're partnering with group that has assets, that are recognizable, and cute af. SO in our case, we're retrofitting a LOT of things right now and if we were just doing quest we'd be pretty one and done with a lot of it. Fun side thing. We ARE going to focus on PCVR to some level, we want the higher res stuff for folks who want it. So I'm tinkering with the idea of potentially using near full poly versions of our cosmetics for the "ULTRA" pcvr graphic settings. It may be a poo poo show but we'll see! chippy posted:
Yep! I didn't play super long so I may have missed some critical thing that didn't work but nothing prevented me from playing while I did. EbolaIvory fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Jul 26, 2022 |
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Jul 26, 2022 22:42
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EbolaIvory posted:Without actually discussing the plans for our game, I think you vastly underestimate the manpower required for cosmetic artists and time consumed flopping things around for multiple LODs. Again we can't just shove all this poo poo into blender and hit decimate, and the assets we're using are not drag and drop, We have to rip them entirely apart, cut off huge sections of them, and reshape almost everything. This is BEFORE tearing them apart for individual parts for cosmetic slots. Some of these initial assets have upwards of 6+ pieces of cosmetics not counting the base skins for said model. This at a minimum of 3 LODs on 60+ Models isn't quick work. I believe you,. I'm just saying not every port needs to up the fidelity for pcvr. Either you have a style (flat graphics for example, think super hot) that translates well without needing to upgrade fidelity, or you just say gently caress it. I'd much rather see more titles coming straight from Oculus without any upgrades than devs saying "well upgrading the fidelity is too costly so we won't port it" poo poo most pcvr titles look like poo poo AND perform like poo poo lol Kwolok fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Jul 26, 2022 |
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Jul 26, 2022 22:46
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Kwolok posted:I believe you,. I'm just saying not every port needs to up the fidelity for pcvr. Either you have a style (flat graphics for example, think super hot) that translates well without needing to upgrade fidelity, or you just say gently caress it. I'd much rather see more titles coming straight from Oculus without any upgrades than devs saying "well upgrading the fidelity is too costly so we won't port it" Yeah our maps/worlds will be much lower poly/texture wise and thats a pretty much copy pasta move to pcvr. Its just the models themselves for us that are the biggest issue. When we first discussed this stuff none of us realized how much of a pain in the dick cosmetics are going to be. XD
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Jul 26, 2022 22:48
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EbolaIvory posted:Yeah our maps/worlds will be much lower poly/texture wise and thats a pretty much copy pasta move to pcvr. Its just the models themselves for us that are the biggest issue. There's a reason I don't gently caress with modeling and just handle the code and functional components. I don't envy solving that problem
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Jul 26, 2022 22:50
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All this talk of optimizations reminds me that I really wish Meta would drop the Quest 1 requirement for AppLab like they've dropped it for mainstream releases. loving sucks that I'm forced to make my game run on an underpowered device that's not even available for purchase just because I'm an unknown studio. We're already handicapped by no store exposure, why make everything else harder too?
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Jul 26, 2022 22:54
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Kwolok posted:There's a reason I don't gently caress with modeling and just handle the code and functional components. I don't envy solving that problem To be honest? Its not complicated in process, its just time consumer as gently caress. Like this one model I'm screwing with atm. Its 144,684 polys. It has 5 pieces of cosmetics on it. Really, its yank off the 5 things, cut down the body a bit, move the hands off the arms, chop the legs, Lower poly count (however many times for each whatever), then make it fit to the hitbox. Its just sooooo time consuming. I'm ignorant as hell when it comes to the actual work but im tinkering a bit to help the guys with manpower and lol, yeah, I get why dude sighs when I'm like "ok we need to add another one". TIP posted:All this talk of optimizations reminds me that I really wish Meta would drop the Quest 1 requirement for AppLab like they've dropped it for mainstream releases. This right here scares us a lot. I'm hoping that poo poo drops off in the near future or we get some mad funding and can throw money at manpower. We're already scaling some crazy poo poo down as is.
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Jul 26, 2022 22:54
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TIP posted:All this talk of optimizations reminds me that I really wish Meta would drop the Quest 1 requirement for AppLab like they've dropped it for mainstream releases.
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Jul 26, 2022 22:54
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EbolaIvory posted:To be honest? Yeah it's doable but when you see an actual modeler using the programs like a true power user it's impressive, and also something I don't have a desire to learn
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Jul 26, 2022 22:55
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Kwolok posted:You don't need to do this though. My point is, if you just want to port your Oculus title, it generally isn't much work. Sure, if you give yourself more work to do, there will be more work... Lol Dude people aren't not porting over oculus stuff to PCVR because they are lazy, it's because it's a lot of work and they make multiple times more money releasing stuff on the quest ecosystem (10x to 30x as much apparently, which is a ridiculous amount)
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Jul 26, 2022 23:05
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Walmart’s probably still have some units available. This makes my decision to get a 256 GB unit last summer even better.
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Jul 26, 2022 23:08
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Alctel posted:Lol On a finished product? It took us about a month of working half time with half the team (the other half were taking a well deserved vacation).
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Jul 26, 2022 23:12
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Alctel posted:Lol This is true buuuuuuuut Kwolok posted:On a finished product? It took us about a month of working half time with half the team (the other half were taking a well deserved vacation). Kind of this. Depending on the game, and if you plan on doing any kind of real higher fidelity or whatever, the work load isn't that bad seemingly. I think I mentioned it before but we did the reverse, pcvr to quest, and it took our team like a weekend or some poo poo to get a "working" build on the quest. Yes unoptimized af but if you were going the other way? Now is it "Worth it" for every title? No, Probably not. It is for us because of the space we work in outside of the game that we plan on deploying said game to. Hell we're porting to pico, and that other chinese headset I can't remember the name of and the focus. But most teams? Probably not worth it in a lot of cases because that time could be spent on the game for its native home on the quest. I know thats a struggle for us with dev time and most teams are pretty small.
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Jul 26, 2022 23:23
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Kwolok posted:On a finished product? It took us about a month of working half time with half the team (the other half were taking a well deserved vacation). Yeah and that's a month you could have spent working on something that will bring in 10x to 30x the amount of money. I'm not saying it's a bad thing that teams port over stuff to PCVR (it's a good thing), I'm just saying it's not some huge conspiracy when they don't.
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Jul 27, 2022 00:22
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Alctel posted:Yeah and that's a month you could have spent working on something that will bring in 10x to 30x the amount of money. No its not this is a stupid argument. You are porting over a finished product. Look at it through Jira points because I am broke brained. Yes we could spend another 5000 jira points to work on a new project to go on the oculus store (or lets say 2000 points to add content to the game for increased oculus sales post launch). Compare that to 150 points to just port the game to pcvr (yes this is variable depending on title and LOE). Sure the oculus front will net more sales buts much more work. If I were trying to get bridge funding I would absolutely focus on porting, furhtermore after a title is finished there are oftne a surplus of engineers whose skills aren't being immediately put to good use (unless you are a churn factory) until a new project is fully fledged enough to have runway for them to ramp up. So might as well put them to work porting (in this case, this was me)
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Jul 27, 2022 00:31
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Kwolok posted:Yes I have done VR development. Yes I understand wanting to start a project targetting one store only. And yes that one store would make more sense to be Oculus. That being said if your title is then successful and there is demand on other platforms, the investment to do that development is fairly trivial once the product is released (assuming you structured it well and didn't just hamfist it for the one VR headset you were developing for) and you would be a fool not to. The only reason successful titles that were released on Oculus aren't coming to other platforms is because the developers either developed themselves into a corner headset support wise, or they have incentives to not release elsewhere. I feel like coming back to this post the conclusions that people are disagreeing with are highlighted here. One clear counterexample is any multiplayer game; on PC, hacking and cheating is going to be a significantly larger problem than on any other platform (not that it can't/won't happen on other platforms, but it's way way easier to do it on PC). If you aren't making enough money on PC, there's a good chance you are hurting yourself financially by opening yourself up to that, which will require a lot of updates and maintenance focused on that. My point isn't to say that it never makes sense to PC, I think that would be a silly thing to argue (and some people especially on Twitter have made it), but I don't think people are arguing that here. I think the main point is just that there are legitimate reasons beyond incompetence or being paid off that you would rationally choose not to release on PC.
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Jul 27, 2022 00:41
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Lemming posted:I feel like coming back to this post the conclusions that people are disagreeing with are highlighted here. One clear counterexample is any multiplayer game; on PC, hacking and cheating is going to be a significantly larger problem than on any other platform (not that it can't/won't happen on other platforms, but it's way way easier to do it on PC). If you aren't making enough money on PC, there's a good chance you are hurting yourself financially by opening yourself up to that, which will require a lot of updates and maintenance focused on that. Multiplayer is the one carve out I will grant, especially since (though I haven't personally touched it) I hear oculus online integration is pretty seamless. However I think there are a lot of bad actors claiming porting is not possible for hand waivey reasons and to think Oculus isn't paying for exlcusives (when, especially in the early days, a lot of titles were previously announced for PCVR, then went silent, then announced they were on Oculus and dropped PCVR support) is naive to say the least. Facebook has almost unlimited money, they have no goodness or merit to them above trying to eek out their market, they will do whatever they can to leverage that advantage, and my team has certainly been offered "Oculus support" for our titles but they came with too many caveats which are exactly what you might expect them to be.
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Jul 27, 2022 00:46
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Alctel posted:Yeah and that's a month you could have spent working on something that will bring in 10x to 30x the amount of money. In defense of PCVR, Its an affordable way to increase your marketing budget. Having PCVR opens up far more options for capture and all that crap. It also opens up the door for content creators to make content that isn't a shaky headset cam. This ultimately lets the dev/publisher make higher quality content themselves or pay someone who does it professionally. Even on the most selfish level if you are in the marketing phases it CAN be worth it to a lot of teams to do the pcvr port/whatever. With that said, Like lemming said. With PCVR it opens the doors to lots of thingies in Multi and its one of those things they'd have to keep up with. Something built initially on oculus already with almost all of your playerbase though? ehh maybe not. It really can go both ways.
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Jul 27, 2022 01:53
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Just implement easy anti cheat and piss off your playerbase 
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Jul 27, 2022 01:54
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Kwolok posted:Just implement easy anti cheat and piss off your playerbase I still need to have this talk with our team actually. I've been thinking how we're going to deal with whatever and I'm not really sure what all PCVR things exist. It'll get put in before public relaunch so its wont be some surprise but is there anything other than that right now?
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Jul 27, 2022 01:56
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EbolaIvory posted:In defense of PCVR, Its an affordable way to increase your marketing budget. Having PCVR opens up far more options for capture and all that crap. It also opens up the door for content creators to make content that isn't a shaky headset cam. I think I came up with a pretty good solution to this on Quest. My new game has an instant replay that tracks the motion of everything in the scene including the player so that you can replay any event and switch to a different perspective. Should make it really easy for me and other people to capture good gameplay clips right on the Quest. I am also making a steam version but I think it will be a huge bonus to my game for everyone to be able to get good videos easily. Especially because I think people will really want to share clips of themselves because the gameplay is hilarious (it's a physics based puzzle game called Shoving Simulator that's entirely built around having tons of physics items and shoving people into them).
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Jul 27, 2022 02:05
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TIP posted:I think I came up with a pretty good solution to this on Quest. My new game has an instant replay that tracks the motion of everything in the scene including the player so that you can replay any event and switch to a different perspective. Should make it really easy for me and other people to capture good gameplay clips right on the Quest. Full mixed reality capture is more what I'm talking about. Things like LIV exist and unless you develop your own (serious sam VR has it built in, no poo poo, seriously, and its half decent, no really, its crazy), this opens up the door for waaaay better content. Beat saber ads? LIV + PCVR + Crazy editing. Hell pretty much every game with a player in it is using LIV or at a min the oculus one (Which pales in comparison). And LIV does have a quest native dealio now but its just not great in comparison. But it IS better than nothing. You can totally do what you're doing too. It can add to it. More options the better since there is all levels of content thats basically "free" advertising once its in if maintenance upkeep isn't huge. Then if its multiplayer content, that you may want to be competitive. Gotta think about spectator modes and cameras and is a desktop client worth it (yes god yes please holy god yes)? Sorry I just love doing what we're doing right now and its been crazy learning how many things you have to think about when you're "behind the lines" or whatever. I could ramble all day. Sorry. XD
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Jul 27, 2022 02:22
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EbolaIvory posted:Full mixed reality capture is more what I'm talking about. Yeah, I get that, hence the "pretty good" descriptor. I think if you're making a quest game that has a full player body then it makes for a very accessible way to get something similar, but if you have the resources to do full mixed reality capture stuff that certainly has its own value.
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Jul 27, 2022 02:37
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Just popping in to say that as a poor with a hand me down quest 1 I am glad about the AppLab requirements on a selfish level because I've been keeping an eye on shoving simulator but in a "oh i'll never actually get to play that" way because lol quest 1 so woo I am glad. Also glad because as a sort of sometimes hobby game developer all I have to work with is a quest 1 (laptop aint up to much) so it's interesting to me to think about the limitations I'm going to be working against. If I ever decide what I want to make beyond "haha look I threw the cube".
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Jul 27, 2022 08:12
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LeFishy posted:Just popping in to say that as a poor with a hand me down quest 1 I am glad about the AppLab requirements on a selfish level because I've been keeping an eye on shoving simulator but in a "oh i'll never actually get to play that" way because lol quest 1 so woo I am glad. Hah, I appreciate the interest. I am aiming for a rock solid 90hz on Quest 2, so 72hz on Quest 1 with a bunch of settings lowered seems doable. I just really wish I had a Quest 1 to test on, gonna have to ask around to all my local VR nerd friends to see if anyone has one I can borrow.
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Jul 27, 2022 08:21
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