Ukraine: The Aristoblyats

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Internet VFW > Ukraine: The Aristoblyats

Wasabi the J: Jan 23, 2008; MOM WAS RIGHT

Trauma is not a competition.

It is interesting how much awful poo poo in the current day and age took shape during the era of online video. Gets me all nice and :tinfoil:

every once in a while when I hear about old gore sites and 4chan and the modern fascist agenda.

# ? Jul 29, 2022 22:58

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 09:55

Midjack: Dec 24, 2007

Soul Dentist posted:

The /library suffix at that site was a big part of me learning about things they did not teach in school. Anybody remember Temple of the Screaming Electron? How did you get your copy of the Anarchist's Handbook?

Yeah I remember totse. I think I got Anarchist Cookbook and Jolly Roger Cookbook from some anonymous ftp site in the late 90s.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 00:42

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

That day again.

https://www.defense.gov/News/Transc...round-briefing/

Preamble, then excerpts as I arbitrarily decide. Not a whole lot this week.

-No new arms announcements
-US does not have a clear idea of what happened at the POW camp, holding Ukrainians, that has been all over the news today (Ukraine claims Wagner blew it up or burned it, Russia claims Ukraine struck the site). SMO states he would not be surprised either way, but that if Ukraine struck the prison with HIMARS, he does not believe they would do so on purpose.
-Russian gains in Donbas still small, incremental, at cost
-Ukraine making some gains in direction of Kherson, but no major counteroffensive or what could be called a breakthrough
-US monitoring Ukrainian consumption rates; ammo drawn down to give to Ukraine are not depleting US war-stocks, and industry and DOD working on ways to increase production [My note: outside of this forum, the Senate Armed Services Committee has requested significantly more HIMARS, GMLRS, and Javelin production in future years than the US Army even asked for in its own budget requests]
-HIMARS have been effective in targeting SAMs, and Russia remains unable to establish air superiority
-Russia utilizing filtration camps, including torture, executions, deportations. Unclear how many people held.

quote:

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Thank you. Good to be with you again today. Today, I'll be very brief with my opening comments and then hand it off to [Senior Military Official].

First observation is that, although we continue to see Russia failing -- failing on the battlefield, paying a high price for very little gain, and suffering domestic failures at home, I was really struck this week by how Russian rhetoric was trying to mask these losses, and what we saw was really very expansionist rhetoric coming out of Moscow.

A couple of examples of this -- we heard Foreign Minister Lavrov reversing his government's earlier denials that they were seeking regime change in Kyiv, and -- and he talked this week of getting rid of the regime in Kyiv. We also saw former Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev post a map on his Telegram channel depicting a Ukraine that has been swallowed up by Russia and its neighbors, leaving only a sliver of the country in Kyiv Oblast.

And even as we have heard this really imperialist rhetoric, we've learned more about how Russia is (inaudible) in the areas of Ukraine that it occupies. The National Intelligence Council released a chilling report that described at least 18 so-called filtration camps, where Ukrainians are subject to inhumane conditions, including abuse, and in some cases, executions.

So I'll conclude by, you know, highlighting that even as Russia is talking a big talk, even as Russia is menacing the Ukrainian population, the Ukrainians continue to bravely advance, they're making tremendous use of the $8.2 billion in equipment we've provided thus far.

Now, today, I don't have a security assistance announcement for you but I can say that we're working very hard and consulting closely with our Ukrainian Ministry of Defense counterparts and we will be preparing another assistance package soon to ensure that the Ukrainians have the munitions they need for their fight in the east and now also in the south.

And with that, I'll turn it over to [Senior Military Official].

SENIOR MILITARY OFFICIAL: Thanks, [SDO]. First of all, good afternoon, everyone. Happy to be back with you on day 156 of Russia's illegal and unprovoked large scale invasion of Ukraine.

Like [SDO], I don't have a significantly large kind of a set of initial comments. I would -- you know, certainly, you all are tracking the missile strikes outside of Kyiv over the week and I know you're strike -- you're tracking the missile strikes down in Odesa, even in the midst of the -- you know, the attempt by the world to get grain moving.

I would highlight, and you all have been reporting on the advances that the Ukrainians are making around Kherson -- and we have seen -- and they're not large, giant advances but they are certainly advances against the Russians.

There was one other comment I was going to make, and of course, I've forgotten what it was, so I will -- I will actually stop right there and I'm -- I'm prepared with (inaudible) to answer any questions you might have.

...

Q (CBS): Q: Hi, thank you. Just to get it out of the way, can you update us on the claims from both Ukraine and Russia that the other side attacked this prison with prisoners of war -- Ukrainian prisoners of war?

And then I also have a question on where right now are the Russians drawing replacements for their losses from? Do they have much capacity left in Russia available to draw from?

And last one, do you have any update on the NASAMS, when the NASAMS will be in Ukraine?

SENIOR MILITARY OFFICIAL: So Ellee, I will -- let me get after your first two and then I'll pass it over to [SDO] on the last.

As to the prisoners of war, we -- again, we're -- we're hearing the same reports you are. I guess what I'd tell you is, I don't have any definitive information in terms of, you know, what happened in particular.

I would ask, you know, as you all look at this, that we apply some caution specifically to what the Russians are telling us, just because we know that they have made several claims in the past that have not been close to correct. So I'll leave it at that.

On the replacements, you all reported on this a couple weeks ago and the ways that the -- I think somebody called it "the" -- gosh, I don't know, "hidden mobilization," something like that. And I forget which periodical it was. I don't if we still -- do people still say "periodical"? In any event, I forget which one it was, but you talked about the fact that Putin had found ways to get more soldiers in uniform.

We know that he is paying people. We know that he is contracting soldiers to stay who otherwise would not. You know, they are -- they have laws just like we do on mobilization. And he has been very particular about, you know, what he has called this in terms of, you know, the -- he has not termed it a full war. But we know he is finding ways to get people that will move in, to include former soldiers that they have called back on active duty, reservists they have called back on active duty. And as a result I think what we're seeing is their battlefield effectiveness in many cases is very poor. You're putting people inside, you know, tanks. I don't know where I saw the video, but there was a video of a Russian tank just driving around in a circle. And it turned out it's because the driver was not trained. He didn't know how to drive the tank. It wasn't because they were having fun in the tank.

So I think they are having problems in trying to figure this out. You know, here's the other thing I would tell you. You know, I certainly don't have their particular casualties. And I'll refer you to the Russians and to the Ukrainians for casualty figures. But whatever the casualty figures for the Russians are, you know, depending on the left and right that people are reporting on, they're very significant. And when you look at the numbers of people that they have lost, it's impossible to believe that they're not having to figure out ways to replace them if they want to continue to go toe-to-toe with Ukrainians.

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Thanks.

And Ellee, I do not have a delivery date for you on NASAMS.

...

Q (NPR): Yeah, can you talk a little bit more about what we're seeing in the east, where the Russians are moving, where they're hunkering down? Any -- any more detail ...

(CROSSTALK)

... for Senior Military Official, of course.

SENIOR MILITARY OFFICIAL: I was going to give that one to [SDO], Tom.

Q: Yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

SENIOR MILITARY OFFICIAL: So we -- we're -- I don't want to say that it's a complete standstill because that would be inaccurate. There are gains on both sides but very -- back and forth, very small. You know, we've been talking -- and -- and so I'll go back -- I think it was probably three or four weeks ago -- in fact, it was probably the first time I did one of these pressers, we were talking about Severodonetsk and I had mentioned to you that, you know, they were -- the Ukrainians were withdrawing but they were withdrawing in a way that I thought we would probably study.

You know, they've gotten to a point now and have -- have created a level of defense that really has the Russians at a standstill, they've stopped. There are probably a lot of reasons for that. You know, we mentioned morale, we mentioned casualties. Those are certainly reasons that the Russians may have stopped. The other reason may be the Ukrainians have become very effective in finding and killing, you know, Russian command and control and destroying large levels of Russian materiel.

So I think what -- what we're seeing on the east is a result of that. And then if you know, if you just look at the axes from Izyum, those defenses have been stalwart now for coming up on three weeks. So the Russians again have been able to make very little progress.

You wonder, in the Russian leadership perspective, if they look at the small level of ground -- and again, as I said then, if you're a Ukrainian and you give up a foot, that's a big deal to you, but if you look at the small amount of ground, miles, that they advanced from Severodonetsk to the west, the Russians, and the gigantic costs they pay for that, you wonder if the Russians now are thinking to themselves "hey, is it worth another few miles?"

So we'll see where this goes.

Q: Any other specific towns you're seeing, movement or static?

SENIOR MILITARY OFFICIAL: So, you know, we, like you all, you know, we're watching the east, I mean, you know, around Bakhmut. We -- we do know that the -- the Russians around Bakhmut have -- took control of the Vuhlehirsk power station last week. You know, that -- that's a big deal, right? I mean, it gives them the opportunity to use power or not use power, literally in this case. And, you know, the indications are not that they are concerned about the Ukrainian people. And so that's certainly a big deal.

But really, you know, in Kharkiv or, you know, around Kharkiv or, as I mentioned, Slovyansk, that axes down from Izyum, back over towards Siversk, we're not seeing any real, you know, substantive change.

Q: OK, great. Thanks, appreciate it.

...

Q (Reuters): Yeah, thanks. Just one quick follow-up on the prison and then I have an unrelated question.

I know you can't say definitively what happened but one of the claims is by the Russians that a HIMARS system was used to strike the prison. Can you say definitively that HIMARS were not used?

SENIOR MILITARY OFFICIAL: I don't know that we can say definitively about any of it. I -- but, you know, what I will -- and listen, I haven't seen all of the reporting but I am told that the Russians, you know, have made claims that they have pieces of HIMARS that were used in the strike. Listen, the Russians have a lot of pieces of HIMARS, right?

I mean, the Ukrainians have been, you know, sending a lot of HIMARS their way. So that would not surprise me. What would also not surprise me is if the Russians would -- would lead us astray, in terms of information, and tell us that the Ukrainians had done this.

Here�s the last thing I'd say, if it happened to be a Ukrainian strike, I promise you, number one, they didn't mean to do that, right? They certainly care about their own people and they care about the civilians and military in uniform of their own army.

And then the last piece would be, just from a practical perspective in terms of our conversations, whenever we talk to the Ukrainians, we've spent a great deal of time back and forth about, you know, reassuring -- or them reassuring us about the loss of land warfare. They clearly understand that.

So anyways, we'll see where this goes but I would just tell you, as you approach this in your reporting, you know, we'll find the right side of this but I wouldn't believe it's the Russians right away.

...

Q (Bloomberg): Hi, sir. I have a couple of questions more on HIMARS. How deep are the Army and Marine inventories right now? And is there a concern that the current U.S. stockpiles will be depleted soon? And that more stories right now? And is there a concern that the current U.S. stockpiles will be depleted soon and that more GMLRS will have to go on contract?

SENIOR MILITARY OFFICIAL: Yeah, you know, I'm not going to talk about the actual inventory. I would tell you this, listen, we've spent a lot of time making sure that we are able, first of all, to defend the homeland, meet all of our requirements around the world if caught on, and we take right in it very, very seriously. So, anytime we make a decision, whether it's a Javelin or a HIMARS, we're assessing the readiness risks associated with that piece of equipment, so we don't have any concerns from the U.S. military perspective, at this point.

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: And I would just chime in. I would just chime in that, right now, you really do have a significant effort underway, across the board with all of the munitions that we are using thing that we are supporting Ukraine with all of the capabilities. And my colleagues in the Acquisition and Sustainment organization here at the Pentagon are working very hard to ensure that we can continue producing, not just what Ukraine needs, but also what we need.

Q (Air Force Magazine): Terrific, thank you so much. I wonder if you could talk about the air picture, trends in the sorties, wondering if you know, when you talk about all the targets that HIMARS are hitting? Are they able to hit any SAMs? Are they able to reach that far to free up the airspace for the Ukrainian Air Force? And if not, is there any new sense of urgency to consider giving Ukraine fighter aircraft or to start pilot training?

SENIOR MILITARY OFFICIAL: So, on the first part of that question, we know that they have -- they have been able to strike surface-to-air missile locations and to destroy some fans. I think the fact that -- that the Russians continue to, you know, not have air superiority certainly says a great deal about the Ukrainians, kind of will, both in their ability to prevent the enemy from shooting at their aircraft but also to shoot down Russian aircraft. And so, I'll just leave it at that. And then...

Q (VoA): Thanks very much for doing this. A couple of questions.

You mentioned at the top, the NIC report on the filtration camps that the Russians have set up. Do you have any more visibility into how many Ukrainians have been deported, put through these camps, and any additional information, any numbers on what's happening to them or how they're being treated, any details once they're pulled out of Ukraine?

And then separately, British intelligence, military intelligence said earlier that Russia is using its Wagner Group mercenaries on the front lines in eastern Ukraine, like they would any other troops. Are Wagner forces properly trained, equipped for that sort of role? And what type of opportunity might that present for the Ukrainians? Thanks.

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Sure, Jeff. In terms of the filtration camp picture, we do not have details on the current numbers of Ukrainians that have been deported. The last statistic that I have is from mid-April, so it's, you know, very early in the conflict, but already at that point in mid-April, the Ukrainian prosecutor general said that Russia was holding 1,700 Ukrainian soldiers and civilians in prisons in Russia and in occupied parts of the Donbas region. So I would imagine that that number is significantly higher now.

You know -- and we have -- you know, we have seen reports of the individuals who are being detained and put into this detention process via the filtration centers, facing torture, threats of gender-based violence, harassment, and even executions.

SENIOR MILITARY OFFICIAL: And on the Wagner Group, Jeff, we've seen the same reports, that the Russians are employing Wagner Group on the front lines. I don't have any particulars. I'd go back to Ellee's question at the beginning on replacements. I mean, it says a great deal about where you are in your fight when you've taken some of the folks that you think are pretty good and you have to use them on your front lines to get after this fight.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 00:50

Comrade Blyatlov: Aug 4, 2007; should have picked four fingers

"Filtration camps"? loving christ.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 00:54

A.o.D.: Jan 15, 2006

Comrade Blyatlov posted:

"Filtration camps"? loving christ.

Those have been a thing since at least early May, possibly earlier. It's certain that given the mass executions began in the opening weeks of the invasion, and that reports of the filtration camps and forced adoptions cane to light not long after that that this was the Russian strategy for the permanent Russification of Ukraine from day one.

I've said it before, there are no Germans or Poles in Kaliningrad, there are no Finns or Lapps in Karelia or Murmansk, and there are no Japanese or Ainu in the Kurils. This is well established strategy.

Edit: I'm reminded of those cremation trucks the Russians allegedly had staged pre-invasion. Has anything come out about how those trucks have been employed and what their current disposition is?

A.o.D. fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Jul 30, 2022

# ? Jul 30, 2022 01:13

MrYenko: Jun 18, 2012; #2 isn't ALWAYS bad...

Hey do you guys remember 2020 when we were all bitching about being locked inside and not talking about filtration camps and mobile crematoria?

gently caress Putin with a rake, is what I�m trying to say.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 01:29

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Dont forget stealing loving children

# ? Jul 30, 2022 01:57

Jimmy Smuts: Aug 8, 2000

So it's some of the same poo poo that the Nazis did, again. I loving hope we don't end up seeing massive concentration camps.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 11:14

psydude: Apr 1, 2008

Jimmy Smuts posted:

So it's some of the same poo poo that the Nazis did, again. I loving hope we don't end up seeing massive concentration camps.

They're already sending dissidents from occupied territories to work camps in Siberia, which was the literal original use of concentration camps by Nazi Germany until they started being used for mass murder.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 11:19

Jimmy Smuts: Aug 8, 2000

psydude posted:

They're already sending dissidents from occupied territories to work camps in Siberia, which was the literal original use of concentration camps by Nazi Germany until they started being used for mass murder.

gently caress.
I just hope Russian incompetence means they can't set up effective death camps.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 11:33

IPCRESS: May 27, 2012

Jimmy Smuts posted:

gently caress.
I just hope Russian incompetence means they can't set up effective death camps.

Yeah, between Russian corruption and observed general inhumanity, you want to take wagers on those camps being heated, edible food or healthcare being available, even before we talk about the guards being pretty casual about murder?

They're going to wind up death camps, no matter the intention. And the intention is almost certainly death camps.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 12:37

A.o.D.: Jan 15, 2006

Less Auschwitz, more easily amused 8 year old's aquarium.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 12:42

M_Gargantua: Oct 16, 2006; STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES; Exciting Lemon

Soul Dentist posted:

The /library suffix at that site was a big part of me learning about things they did not teach in school. Anybody remember Temple of the Screaming Electron? How did you get your copy of the Anarchist's Handbook?

Temple of the Screaming Electron is a name I haven't thought of in a long time. Reading that stuff on school 56k dialup is a memory.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 13:36

Murgos: Oct 21, 2010

A.o.D. posted:

Less Auschwitz, more easily amused 8 year old's aquarium.

Either way all the fish end up dead. At some point malicious intent and complete lack of care converge.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 14:25

A.o.D.: Jan 15, 2006

Murgos posted:

Either way all the fish end up dead. At some point malicious intent and complete lack of care converge.

Oh, it'll be absolutely brutal. A greater percentage of human beings under the neglected fishtank model will be subjected to personalized and targeted cruelty than the industrialized murder factory. It's all just different flavors of humanity's worst aspects.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 14:49

Pot Smoke Phoenix: Aug 15, 2007; Smoke 'em if you gottem!; Dinosaur Gum

MrYenko posted:

Hey do you guys remember 2020 when we were all bitching about being locked inside and not talking about filtration camps and mobile crematoria?

gently caress Putin with a rake, is what I�m trying to say.

Sideways *nods*

# ? Jul 30, 2022 15:21

The X-man cometh: Nov 1, 2009

IPCRESS posted:

Yeah, between Russian corruption and observed general inhumanity, you want to take wagers on those camps being heated, edible food or healthcare being available, even before we talk about the guards being pretty casual about murder?

They're going to wind up death camps, no matter the intention. And the intention is almost certainly death camps.

This is closer to when the Turks didn't intend to starve as many Armenians on the forced marches through the desert, or for individual units to conduct massacres, but were happy with the results.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 15:32

Grip it and rip it: Apr 28, 2020

If there are mass executions to go along with the concentration camps then there will likely be repercussions for the international order, in particular the UN and other instruments of US hegemony. I dunno if that could be a secondary goal the Russians would value, but I would think that their strategy doesn't involve being welcomed back into the international order with open arms

Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Jul 30, 2022

# ? Jul 30, 2022 17:29

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; by Fluffdaddy
(and can't post for 5 days!)

Grip it and rip it posted:

If there are mass executions to go along with the concentration camps then there will likely be repercussions for the international order, in particular the UN and other instruments of US hegemony.

The camps in question are run by Russia (or their instruments of hegemony) so how will the US (or their instruments of hegemony) experience these "repercussions" precisely if the Russians are killing Ukrainian POWs?

Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Jul 30, 2022

# ? Jul 30, 2022 17:34

Stultus Maximus: Dec 21, 2009; USPOL May

Grip it and rip it posted:

If there are mass executions to go along with the concentration camps then there will likely be repercussions for the international order, in particular the UN and other instruments of US hegemony.

Source your quotes.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 17:43

Grip it and rip it: Apr 28, 2020

Rust Martialis posted:

The camps in question are run by Russia (or their instruments of hegemony) so how will the US (or their instruments of hegemony) experience these "repercussions" precisely if the Russians are killing Ukrainian POWs?

It could well demonstrate the inability of the US and west to enact the stated goals of the UN and international order with respect to preventing genocide, and attempt to install an understanding of international relations based on "great" (i. e. Nuclear) power status.

I 100% think this is a hairbrained analysis that I only came up with after trying to surmise why Russia would seek to do such insane poo poo. If they cross the red line over and over again, and nothing is done to them, then they have "demonstrated" great power status.

Again I dont believe any of this, but I'm trying to see the thread of logic that runs through their behavior up to this point.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 17:52

Pine Cone Jones: Dec 6, 2009; You throw me the acorn, I throw you the whip!

I feel more and more, as time goes on, that we must intervene as we did in desert storm. I am indifferent about a nuclear threat from russia, we are on a road to climate hell and frankly if the world is going to end, might as well be for a halfway decent reason. gently caress russia, we can't allow them to continue doing this.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 17:56

my kinda ape: Sep 15, 2008; Everything's gonna be A-OK; Oven Wrangler

Jimmy Smuts posted:

gently caress.
I just hope Russian incompetence means they can't set up effective death camps.

Unfortunately the only thing you need to set up an effective death camp is to not feed the prisoners well enough to keep them alive, so incompetence only makes that more likely.

efb

# ? Jul 30, 2022 17:56

aphid_licker: Jan 7, 2009

Who there's gonna be repercussions for kinda rests on how much of the international community can see themselves wanting to set up a filtration camp themselves sometime, or maybe have themselves already gotten poo poo from the hypocritical westerners for setting up one. I don't think they're gonna be able to set up their own international order, it's a desperation move, but it's kinda uncomfortable how you can see what they're going for and how it could happen

# ? Jul 30, 2022 17:56

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

Rust Martialis posted:

The camps in question are run by Russia (or their instruments of hegemony) so how will the US (or their instruments of hegemony) experience these "repercussions" precisely if the Russians are killing Ukrainian POWs?

Strictly speaking Russians are killing POWs and evidence has been turning up of that for a while. People who had surrendered at Mariupol were already turning up dead far before this. Presumably the continued response is to keep giving Ukraine the means of killing as many Russian soldiers and to destroy as much Russian materiel as possible and to continue to sanction as much of the Russian economy as possible.

Springboarding off this to talk about POWs and filtration camps a bit: tbh when the Mariupol defenders surrendered, the broad consensus was that there's got to be almost no way that they're ever getting out. Russia was promising that they'd be exchanged for Russian prisoners, but I'd be surprised if many in the Ukrainian government believed that deal was likely. You had a core group of extremely motivated and extremely effective people who fought apparently 12-15 BTGs to a near standstill for 2 months who were both heroes to Ukraine and extremely experienced fighters who'd be useful either as fighters or as trainers. Letting that manpower back into Ukrainian circulation was, imo, probably never going to happen. Doubly so because many of the captures were Azov, albeit it's worth noting that many more Ukrainian units than just Azov were fighting in Mariupol. Particularly in light of the ilovaisk massacre where Russia machine-gunned and shelled a convoy of Ukrainians retreating through a negotiated corridor, it's doubtful anyone had too much faith in the Russian promises.

WRT POWs the bigger question is it 1) widespread 2) officially ordered and by who at what level. Torture and summary executions of Ukrainian POWs has been credibly alleged repeatedly to be widespread, though this would be the largest alleged single execution of Ukrainian POWs of this conflict afaik. Notably in the 2014 war there were significant massacres surrendering Ukrainians.

Also the filtration camp stuff is generally separate from the POW stuff. The filtration camps are far, far larger than anything to do with POWs. Ukrainian POWs for perspective number like .1% compared to the number of people who have gone through filtration camps. Notably filtration camps have been credibly accused of executing people and indeed that is part of their purpose, albeit not exactly the primary purpose: they're meant to screen 100% of people going through them for any questionable loyalties or signs of potential for unrest or disloyalty and to determine if people fought against or resisted Russia. That said, they're very much a part of the formal Russian doctrine of cleansing occupied areas of anyone who might cause problems. idk if it's really known what happens to people who get flagged in filtration camps. Presumably some are used in prisoner exchanges, but many simply disappear.

aphid_licker posted:

Who there's gonna be repercussions for kinda rests on how much of the international community can see themselves wanting to set up a filtration camp themselves sometime, or maybe have themselves already gotten poo poo from the hypocritical westerners for setting up one. I don't think they're gonna be able to set up their own international order, it's a desperation move, but it's kinda uncomfortable how you can see what they're going for and how it could happen

I think totalitarian and heavily authoritarian governments regularly underestimate just how universally unpopular that degree of totalitarian force applied wholesale against civilians is to most of the rest of the world. It's one of the major things that causes migration and as such, even in countries seemingly well-insulated from it, you'll still have a significant portion of your population within a degree or two of someone who first hand experienced one of the more horrific camps or totalitarian crackdowns and that stuff is polarizing for generations. In less stable regions the memory and experience of that kind of force is even more immediate and isn't buried three generations back.

Lowkey russia and china both gently caress up a lot of their foreign messaging by failing to appreciate this point and it's behind a lot of the more tone deaf messaging efforts where there's a presupposition that people only oppose it to score international public opinion points and not because most people know someone who fled a hyper-repressive state. Other authoritarian states gently caress it up too, I just mention russia and china here because they're both otherwise competent enough in their messaging efforts that you'd think they'd grasp that dynamic better.

E: also sorry for the wall of text about depressing topics

Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Jul 30, 2022

# ? Jul 30, 2022 18:09

shame on an IGA: Apr 8, 2005

Grip it and rip it posted:

It could well demonstrate the inability of the US and west to enact the stated goals of the UN and international order with respect to preventing genocide, and attempt to install an understanding of international relations based on "great" (i. e. Nuclear) power status.

I 100% think this is a hairbrained analysis that I only came up with after trying to surmise why Russia would seek to do such insane poo poo. If they cross the red line over and over again, and nothing is done to them, then they have "demonstrated" great power status.

Again I dont believe any of this, but I'm trying to see the thread of logic that runs through their behavior up to this point.

I mean it's hardly a stretch, that's basically been Putin's MO for his entire run. Cross the red line du jour while simultaneously shrieking "I'm not touching you" and "see decadent west is too weak to do anything" and "see decadent west can do everything to stop us but they don't care about you" and "stop hitting yourself".

When you're a star, they let you do it. Grab 'em right by the exclave, they'll let you do anything

Really though it's striking how much of geopolitics is just domestic abuse dynamics scaled up

shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jul 30, 2022

# ? Jul 30, 2022 18:40

A.o.D.: Jan 15, 2006

Grip it and rip it posted:

It could well demonstrate the inability of the US and west to enact the stated goals of the UN and international order with respect to preventing genocide, and attempt to install an understanding of international relations based on "great" (i. e. Nuclear) power status.

I 100% think this is a hairbrained analysis that I only came up with after trying to surmise why Russia would seek to do such insane poo poo. If they cross the red line over and over again, and nothing is done to them, then they have "demonstrated" great power status.

Again I dont believe any of this, but I'm trying to see the thread of logic that runs through their behavior up to this point.

It is my belief that Putin is cargo culting Stalin, and is enacting the polices he has because he sees Stalin as the greatest ~~Georgian~~Russian who ever ruled.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 18:52

shame on an IGA: Apr 8, 2005

Russian civilian commits murder on camera:

https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1553357113489244160

# ? Jul 30, 2022 20:29

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

Жодий working overtime

# ? Jul 30, 2022 20:35

piL: Sep 20, 2007; (__|\\\\); Taco Defender

I find it odd when people compare Russian camps for political prisoners to the Nazis. I mean, yes technically--you're not wrong but I don't think you need to travel that distance.

A.o.D. posted:

It is my belief that Putin is cargo culting Stalin, and is enacting the polices he has because he sees Stalin as the greatest ~~Georgian~~Russian who ever ruled.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 21:37

psydude: Apr 1, 2008

piL posted:

I find it odd when people compare Russian camps for political prisoners to the Nazis. I mean, yes technically--you're not wrong but I don't think you need to travel that distance.

Tankies have done a good enough job of whitewashing the USSR that a lot of people don't know about the Gulags.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 21:50

A.o.D.: Jan 15, 2006

Read Gulag Archipelago.

This is not directed at anyone in particular. I just feel that it should be part of the basic curricula for modern political education.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 21:57

Comrade Blyatlov: Aug 4, 2007; should have picked four fingers

Human history is terrible. All of it.

# ? Jul 30, 2022 22:41

goatsestretchgoals: Jun 4, 2011

Herstory Begins Now posted:

Жодий working overtime

I was about to post �disappointed this didn�t translate to Jody� but then I took a closer look at �Zhodyi�.

:golfclap:

# ? Jul 30, 2022 23:48

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

A.o.D. posted:

Read Gulag Archipelago.

This is not directed at anyone in particular. I just feel that it should be part of the basic curricula for modern political education.

I think One Day In The Life of Iv�n Den�sovich gets you halfway there faster but I concede the point.

# ? Jul 31, 2022 00:02

madeintaipei: Jul 13, 2012

ulmont posted:

I think One Day In The Life of Iván Denísovich gets you halfway there faster but I concede the point.

Gulag Archipeligo doesn't feel like a 1,400+ page book when you're reading it. But, yeah, it'll take you a bit.

Kolyma Tales by Varlam Shalamov is another good intro to the Gulag.

# ? Jul 31, 2022 00:53

Qtotonibudinibudet: Nov 7, 2011; Omich poluyobok, skazhi ty narkoman? ya prosto tozhe gde to tam zhivu, mogli by vmeste uyobyvat' narkotiki

ulmont posted:

I think One Day In The Life of Iv�n Den�sovich gets you halfway there faster but I concede the point.

also unless something changed the ebook versions of gulag archipelago are TERRIBLE

# ? Jul 31, 2022 01:36

Uncle Enzo: Apr 28, 2008; I always wanted to be a Wizard

About filtration camps and what anyone, even Ukraine can do about them, the answer is win the war. Looking back in alternate history, there wasn't really anything the Allies could do to stop the Holocaust. Yeah we could undo turning away that one ship full of refugees and such but the industrial murder was going to continue as long as the nazis had the power to continue it.

The Allies completely mobilized their entire societies to winning that war, but there wasn't any way to change their enemies internal behavior without destroying the armies and air defenses standing between the allies and the camps.

If we want the horror and murder to stop, we need to help Ukraine win as quickly, completely, and decisively as possible. More missiles, more artillery, more ammo and it's about time we start training them on the F-16, what's the loving holdup?

# ? Jul 31, 2022 04:36

BIG HEADLINE: Jun 13, 2006; "Stand back, Ottawan ruffian, or face my lumens!"

Uncle Enzo posted:

...it's about time we start training them on the F-16, what's the loving holdup?

It's not that simple. A curriculum needs to be designed from the ground up, as even though you'd THINK most combat pilots would at least know Aviation English, some poo poo isn't going to translate well. They'll need to be trained on subsystems. Translators and instructors will have to be introduced and familiarized. It needs to be decided (and probably legislated) on with regards to which systems we'll *permit* loaded into said F-16s.

And this is even before the airframes are brought back to airworthiness from AMARG. The US military can do a lot of things but this is not something that can be done quickly.

# ? Jul 31, 2022 04:44

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 5, 2024 09:55

CRUSTY MINGE: Mar 30, 2011; Peggy Hill
Foot Connoisseur

As long as we can backfill EU/NATO countries providing what they are already familiar with, I wouldn't worry about giving them planes.

Send more HIMARS instead.

# ? Jul 31, 2022 05:12

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Internet VFW > Ukraine: The Aristoblyats

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