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Unless Wilson killed him.
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Aug 7, 2022 18:08
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Maneck posted:If Matt Wilson is lying, that'll come out pretty fast since the guy who bought it could still post. Or if more than 1 person reports it happening. Then it'd come it pretty fast too.
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Aug 7, 2022 19:10
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zerofiend posted:Nah, absolutely not. The original poster had plenty of print experience and noted the tackiness of uncured resin and burning in his fingertips from handling it. The residue in the bath is uncured resin, and this is more gaslighting from Wilson. Sure. A massive cover-up of a widespread problem that is certain to have more examples of it soon is way more likely than one random dude being wrong. That certainly lines up with the complete lack of any other examples of this happening so far. rydiafan fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Aug 8, 2022 |
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Aug 7, 2022 19:33
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How very fortunate for them! I don't know exactly what's happening there but cured, residual resin is chalky and powdery, while uncured is shiny and tacky. Weren't there two cases though? The one where the guy was bullied into painting it and the one we saw photographed for the FB page.
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Aug 7, 2022 20:31
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Two cases is still pretty isolated.
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Aug 7, 2022 20:34
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rydiafan posted:Sure. A massive cover-up of a widespread problem that is certain to have more examples of it soon is way more likely than one random dude being wrong. That certainly reminds up with the complete lack of any other examples of this happening so far. I know you love to go to bat for them because you were a community figure with a podcast, but gently caress off dude. This has been incompetent from the jump and having even a single instance of uncured resin is inexcusable, much less the multiple days of deleting posts from anybody calling out the poo poo quality of the prints.
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Aug 7, 2022 20:40
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rantmo posted:Two cases is still pretty isolated. It's not an easily recognized problem, and it'd be two cases in less than a week.
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Aug 7, 2022 20:43
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So tacking a quick scan of this thread back through December, the only 1st person source of uncured resin I found is the imgur post (https://imgur.com/a/yZUIj6g). There is a post of a new Cygnar jack, but that was in the context of layer lines existing. It certainly has a sloppy paint job, but if sloppy paint jobs are evidence of uncured resin, the hobby's got a much bigger problem *points to the Unspiration thread*. There was mention of people being "forced to paint" uncured minis, but that's unsourced as far as this thread goes. Feel free to refresh the source(s) if you got it, this was about a five minute look. This discussion started with that one person's post, who introduces themselves as knowledgeable in resin printing, describes the issues that they found, and at the end sounds positive on the long term outlook. That issue hasn't appeared in any other sourced comments. The issue has been then circled back and forth in chatter among the same posters, who at one point cite the fact that people (read: themselves) are talking about it on SA so it must be real. This feels like the wargames version of 24-hour news channel talking heads drumming up controversy on a slow news day.
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Aug 7, 2022 22:26
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PharmerBoy posted:The issue has been then circled back and forth in chatter among the same posters, who at one point cite the fact that people (read: themselves) are talking about it on SA so it must be real. You can just quote me, and that'd actually be cooler because this is some pretty disingenuous framing right here.
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Aug 8, 2022 00:29
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Honestly FB is also full of people intentionally overblowing things if you know where to look, the general page has just been very mod heavy lately
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Aug 8, 2022 00:31
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A quick Google search showed me that they're having a similar discussion on this subject in the Dakka forums, so it ain't just us here on SA talking about it.
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Aug 8, 2022 00:35
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This you?moths posted:It's unsettling just how well that strategy works for PR.
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Aug 8, 2022 00:40
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Yeah. It was in the context of "If it were a problem, people would be taking about it." People were trying to talk about it on FB (getting ban hammered and comment purged) and here, and nobody else is even talking about MkIV. Except Dakka, I forgot they're around
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Aug 8, 2022 00:44
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It'd be better if more people forgot Dakka was around tbh
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Aug 8, 2022 00:52
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Still looks like you're citing yourself talking about it as proof that people are talking about it, which is pretty weak. Did anyone else manage to post evidence of it happening? Even if it was on a deleted post, screenshots are a widely known thing. Dakka's a step in the right direction, do they have anything more to add besides rehashing one imgur post?
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Aug 8, 2022 00:53
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Ultimately, absent any evidence of more widespread issues, I don't see any reason to get more concerned about it that the experienced printer who has first hand knowledge. It's a lovely example of an individual product, it's not proof that MKIV is doomed and the printing process is unworkable.
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Aug 8, 2022 01:00
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zerofiend posted:I know you love to go to bat for them because you were a community figure with a podcast, but gently caress off dude. This has been incompetent from the jump and having even a single instance of uncured resin is inexcusable, much less the multiple days of deleting posts from anybody calling out the poo poo quality of the prints. lol, if you ever listened to my podcast you'd know I'm perfectly happy calling PP on their poo poo. I just like there to be actual poo poo to call them on. I literally said them deleting posts and banning people was dumb two posts ago. And "even one is too many" only matters if there's actually one.
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Aug 8, 2022 01:00
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PharmerBoy posted:Still looks like you're citing yourself talking about it as proof that people are talking about it, which is pretty weak. I feely admit that my posting can lack clarity, so sorry if it looked like I was citing myself. This thread is where I found out about the uncured resin; It felt pretty gaslight to then be told "No discussion is occurring, therefore there's no issue. fake news."
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Aug 8, 2022 02:51
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moths posted:I feely admit that my posting can lack clarity, so sorry if it looked like I was citing myself. This thread is where I found out about the uncured resin; It felt pretty gaslight to then be told "No discussion is occurring, therefore there's no issue. fake news." There’s a real big leap between “hey, has there been another report corroborating this one person’s experience?” and “No discussion is occurring, therefore there’s no issue. Fake news.” You’re making the steepest of mountains out of a a single datapoint molehill and people reasonably asking if the headlines are blowing one negative report out of proportion. No one here is simping for PP, and I haven’t seen a single contrary post to the consensus opinion that PP’s social media team is being heavy handed on Facebook. Why you continue to insist that you *must* die a glorious martyr on *that* particular hill, and then continue to double down when everyone here is saying that you’re probably justified in your opinion, but taking it *way too far* is what you should be addressing.
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Aug 8, 2022 03:11
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FWIW I went to PP's booth at GenCon and told them in person that: 1) They were coming down way harder than they needed to on their Facebook group. 2) Even if they disagreed, it was a lovely look.
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Aug 8, 2022 03:32
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moths prematurely ejaculated in their doom saying and now we're all awkwardly staring at their cum stained pants. let's wait and see if Privateer Press has been hoisted by their own petard.
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Aug 8, 2022 03:45
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I'm perfectly content waiting until the gencon orders show up because everything around PP gets blown way out of proportion in social media circles one way or the other. There are still people intentionally trying to sabotage people trying to get into PP games because of Mk3.
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Aug 8, 2022 05:09
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I probably confused what people were saying here with what people were saying on facebook. There's a lot of "Well, I don't see any lines" action.
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Aug 8, 2022 05:26
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I kind of checked out of Warmahordes prior to the release of Mk3, what was it about that release that basically killed the game off for everyone? I remember checking in the thread occasionally and people talking about how their local WMH scene had pretty much died off, but I don't remember what it was about that release that made everyone ditch it for other stuff (other than I think it was also around the time GW had a massive shakeup in their upper management and started to kinda sorta get good again).
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Aug 8, 2022 05:55
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All of our most competitive players disappeared so fast that I never even got a chance to ask any of them directly, although they were clearly frustrated by the battle box balance during our initial escalation league. A handful of us kept it going for a year or two, but keeping up with CID was annoying for people who weren't min-maxing anyway, and speaking for myself, PP's leaning into goofy poo poo like the Grymkin and the later Man-o-war stuff really did not help with maintaining my interest. Local games just kind of petered out by the end of 2018, while X-wing, Guildball, and even Legion stayed healthy until the pandemic.
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Aug 8, 2022 06:23
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I kind of checked out of Warmahordes prior to the release of Mk3, what was it about that release that basically killed the game off for everyone? I remember checking in the thread occasionally and people talking about how their local WMH scene had pretty much died off, but I don't remember what it was about that release that made everyone ditch it for other stuff (other than I think it was also around the time GW had a massive shakeup in their upper management and started to kinda sorta get good again). The Mk3 launch was a balance disaster in part because a bunch of the decisions seemed to be built around theme lists that wouldn't actually appear for most of the factions for some time, but also just a lot of generally bad balance decisions. And while theme balance ended up being mostly okay a lot of the time, there was also a lot of rose-tinted glasses comparing it to an extremely balanced version of mk2 that never actually existed.
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Aug 8, 2022 06:32
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There was also stuff like at the start of Mk3, Skorne literally did not work as written. I don't know the specifics, but apparently it was so bad it required a massive once-over again on the faction to get everything working again. Building on what the others said, a big part of Mk2's success was the anemic performance of GW at the time, led by absolute genius Tom Kirby. Under his tenure GW basically kinda let 40k languish and just assumed everyone didn't really care too much about the rules they put out, and would buy their pretty pewter dolls anyways. (I think Warhammer Fantasy was blown up around this time as well iirc) So you had a lot of what we called "Warhammer refugees" who were enticed by this new, reasonably tight and effective competitive ruleset that PP had put out with Mk2, and were pissed about 40k's current state. On top of that, because of the competitive focus of the game at the time, list theorycrafting became a cottage industry, with forums and podcasts springing up like weeds. This in turn drove and engaged a pretty active community, and Warmahordes had quite a healthy tournament scene for a number of years. At the time, GW didn't have official events and big unofficial tournaments were kinda rare, I don't think the GT circuit had started up yet. When Mk3 hit, it seems like the designers felt that balance was getting away from them, and thus decided to balance stuff around theme lists, I think the thought was its easier to balance a smaller pool of stuff with limited options. This led to a host of issues that SJ touched on, like a lot of decisions being made with a framework in mind that didn't exist yet. When new themes came out (like Ghost Fleet) they often straight up dominated older stuff thanks to thier crazy bonuses. Eventually themepocalypse hit and tings more or less evened out, but by then much of the community had either moved on, quit, or went back to 40k. Edit: I also kinda forgot to add, when GW got a new CEO you started seeing a lot of changes, and while I still think 40k has a lot of issues, it is a far, far better game than it was back in the heyday of Mk2. Hipster Occultist fucked around with this message at 08:07 on Aug 8, 2022 |
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Aug 8, 2022 07:23
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Hipster Occultist posted:There was also stuff like at the start of Mk3, Skorne literally did not work as written.
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Aug 8, 2022 07:42
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I kind of checked out of Warmahordes prior to the release of Mk3, what was it about that release that basically killed the game off for everyone? I remember checking in the thread occasionally and people talking about how their local WMH scene had pretty much died off, but I don't remember what it was about that release that made everyone ditch it for other stuff (other than I think it was also around the time GW had a massive shakeup in their upper management and started to kinda sorta get good again). I wasn't around for it myself, but I hear about it from a guy who part owns one of the local stores. His complaints are mostly inane, and demonstrate that there was a self-sustaining (i.e. not entirely based in reality) sense of grievance that people rode out of the hobby and, to a certain extent, still cling to. This guy argues, for example, that rules should have been fixed for the entire edition, never updated. Mind that he's a guy with a bunch of army books, because otherwise that one's just crazy. That said, Privateer Press had obviously made some bizarre choices, many of which were openly hostile to retailers. The way they did army books was crazy. Even as someone who was buying books at liquidation prices for the lore and to understand the models in other armies, I found the inconsistency in design annoying. For some armies, buying the army book doesn't get you a description of all the units. You have to go to the main rule book for others. And even after adding those two sources together, there are still units which pre-existed publication which are missing. Skorne, again, are the clear example of this. I've been told Privateer Press was, for a time, going with the idea that a single faction would have multiple army books to cover the different themes. Since the rules were always available free in Mk. 3, the idea that people would buy the main rule book plus multiple codicies to play a faction (keeping in mind the actually rules in the books would be very quickly out of date) is wild, and retailers who ordered these books suffered massive losses on it. They were expensive and pointless. See also Mk. 3 card packs which went out of date and were never updated. Similarly, there were horribly designed army boxes. They were marketed as being a great way for new players to get into a faction, and also good value for old players. They were neither. Dig through the thread and you'll find posts from me as a new player asking, bewildered, how I was supposed to use the army box I had bought. The answer, unfortunately, was that I couldn't. Not without playing themeless, anyway. The models in the box were locked into different themes. Since it made way more sense, at that point, to build by theme, these boxes were actively leading new players in the wrong direction. And because the boxes included common utility pieces (good for new players), they were poor value for existing players who were already capped out on those models. In the result, these boxes mostly had no market stores are still stuck with piles of these things. And this was particularly schizophrenic in that it was Privateer Press itself which was pushing the idea of themes so hard. Maneck fucked around with this message at 12:33 on Aug 8, 2022 |
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Aug 8, 2022 12:29
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PP made a lot of bad decisions in different arenas at the start of Mk3, but I think one thing that can’t really be overstated is the degree to which non-GW wargames’ success or failure is really tied to whether GW is currently loving up or not. GW was loving up badly from 2008 or so to 2018 or so. In 2018 things started to improve and by 2019 they were doing really well. I remember from 2008-2014 I saw people playing, and stores stocking, WM/H, Malifaux, Bolt Action, Flames of War, Infinity, Dust, Dropzone Commander, Dystopian Wars, Guild Ball, Kings of War, and more. Some of those games still exist, some don’t, but I only see a few of them played anymore- in my local it’s Malifaux and GW games and that’s it.
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Aug 8, 2022 12:52
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Yeah, I remember getting into Warmahordes back around the mid-2010s, when GW was in the midst of shooting themselves in the foot with stuff like Finecast and the Chapterhouse lawsuit and whatnot. I'd gotten the Khador half of a starter box (I think it was Khador vs. Menoth in that one) and was pondering getting a Circle force for Hordes at some point. The thing that kept me from jumping in full force was the use of "restic", I absolutely hated trying to clean that poo poo up for the warjacks and I replaced the individual figures with metal models whenever I could, but that wasn't exactly the cheapest proposition. That plus I started getting into some other games like Bolt Action and Frostgrave as time went on, so I paid less attention to the WMH stuff. And then I moved and I got out of gaming for a while, I think this would've been right around the time that Mk3 was announced, and when I started dipping my toes back in was when I started reading about how people had abandoned WMH in droves. This would have been right around the same time (or shortly after) GW got rid of Kirby and started making tiny steps towards making good games again (though they do seem to be sliding back into some of their old habits nowadays). These days I mainly 3D print minis for games like Frostgrave, Stargrave, and Grimdark Future, among others. I was mildly intrigued by the announcement of WMH Mk4, but from what I've seen of their 3D printed minis, I'm probably going to pass on it. DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:PP made a lot of bad decisions in different arenas at the start of Mk3, but I think one thing that can’t really be overstated is the degree to which non-GW wargames’ success or failure is really tied to whether GW is currently loving up or not. GW was loving up badly from 2008 or so to 2018 or so. In 2018 things started to improve and by 2019 they were doing really well. I remember even in the late 2010s, the majority of the games at a given store were going to be GW (and more specifically 40k), and then whatever ones were either selling well enough for the owner to keep in stock, or whichever ones a store's owner was trying to push super hard in order to create a local scene for that particular game (I was living in central FL at the time, so these tended to be either WMH, X-Wing, or Infinity; I remember a store in Orlando was pushing Guild Ball pretty heavily when it first came out, and there was a store in Tampa that had a pretty healthy stock of Malifaux, but that was about it for non-GW games. Any Bolt Action I played was on a casual level as there wasn't a lot of stores carrying BA stuff). Oddly enough, the FLGS in my hometown sells precisely zero GW stuff. They had a small stock in when I moved back home in 2017, but it was all older releases that were like 3 or 4 years old. When I was talking to one of the guys who worked there, he said that the 40k/AoS scene was nonexistent here, and that their prime movers (excluding Magic and other card games of that ilk, which keeps most game stores afloat) were RPGs like D&D and Pathfinder. He'd never even heard of Warmahordes when I mentioned it.
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Aug 8, 2022 14:09
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Hipster Occultist posted:There was also stuff like at the start of Mk3, Skorne literally did not work as written. I don't know the specifics, but apparently it was so bad it required a massive once-over again on the faction to get everything working again. I'm sure it was not the only issue, but the main thing I remember the local Skorne player complaining about was the fact that it was the only faction that had no access to free charges, which was especially frustrating given their identity in Mk 2 as the faction that lived on Rush.
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Aug 8, 2022 14:19
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Do we have any indication how much more "important" Jacks will be in Mk4? I - like many others, I suspect - was drawn to Warmachine not just because GW bullshit but because I wanted to play with my giant robo-dolls end then I quickly discovered Infantrymachine was actually the name of the game and you're almost never throwing Jacks around or any of that extremely cool stuff. Seems like maybe with the Starter boxes sort of forcing you to bring some maybe there could be more emphasis on that sort of thing? I assume there will be some more Infantry-heavy boxes and more Jack-heavy ones but 
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Aug 8, 2022 15:24
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Well, they've eliminated free jack points and the starters are heavily weighted towards infantry, so make of that what you will.
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Aug 8, 2022 15:31
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It's hard to say at this point but it does seem like they want jacks to be more powerful than they had been but I don't have a sense of where the overall power level of the edition is yet.
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Aug 8, 2022 15:32
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smug jeebus posted:Well, they've eliminated free jack points and the starters are heavily weighted towards infantry, so make of that what you will. You also have mandatory minimums of jacks you have to take depending on point level.
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Aug 8, 2022 16:01
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Jacks will absolutely have a place in the in Mark 4. The obvious reason is the fact that they're literally mandatory. But also, with the fact that they all have dual attack, a jack can wipe out an entire unit in an activation.
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Aug 8, 2022 16:09
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rydiafan posted:I'm sure it was not the only issue, but the main thing I remember the local Skorne player complaining about was the fact that it was the only faction that had no access to free charges, which was especially frustrating given their identity in Mk 2 as the faction that lived on Rush. I was playing Skorne at the time, and it definitely seemed like they rushed the mk3 release out before they’d finished with all the factions - like they were doing them in order and hadn’t revised Skorne or Minions yet. I also remember watching the mk3 launch event from whatever con it was, where Wilson was obviously super pissed that everything had leaked ahead of time and just played a short video then was just “whatever, go buy stuff.”
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Aug 8, 2022 17:47
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:I remember from 2008-2014 I saw people playing, and stores stocking, WM/H, Malifaux, Bolt Action, Flames of War, Infinity, Dust, Dropzone Commander, Dystopian Wars, Guild Ball, Kings of War, and more. Some of those games still exist, some don’t, but I only see a few of them played anymore- in my local it’s Malifaux and GW games and that’s it. Guild Ball did get murdered by the company that made it though 
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Aug 8, 2022 18:00
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Pyrolocutus posted:Guild Ball did get murdered by the company that made it though Why continue making and selling your popular miniatures game when you can stop in the middle of a rebalance that has like one faction to go, blame your customers for playing wrong, then go become CMON junior selling lovely licensed games on Kickstarter?
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Aug 8, 2022 18:12
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