(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
|
in recent years i’ve found that it’s important to read marx’s contemporaries to see where he’s drawing from others, where he’s leaning on ideas that were their own thing at the time but are now mainly associated with marxism (stage-conception of history very much this type of thing), and try to isolate what it is that is actually specific to the thinking of m&e rather than reflecting the common theoretical toolkit many other thinkers in their milieu are drawing from or bouncing off of. however i am also a very lazy reader and so this merely becomes another aspect of my limited marxology to contemplate anyway this is just to say that the economic manuscripts, and theories of surplus value in particular, are very good sources for seeing him engage with economic thinking in the previous hundred years and are a good way to orient your understanding of what he was trying to answer if you know modern economic theory and bounced off trying to read capital or something
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2022 20:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 14:16 |
|
|
https://twitter.com/open_sketchbook/status/1557822376771031040 well, let's check the record: taken from "Song of the Forest: Russian Forestry and Stalinist Environmentalism, 1905-1953", by Stephen Brain  ...  oh. huh. gradenko_2000 has issued a correction as of 02:59 on Aug 12, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 02:54
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:well, let's check the record: taken from "Song of the Forest: Russian Forestry and Stalinist Environmentalism, 1905-1953", by Stephen Brain that’s some good brain.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 03:12
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/open_sketchbook/status/1557822376771031040 The more I read about Stalin the more I would go gay for him
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 03:43
|
|
|
MLSM posted:The more I read about Stalin the more I would go gay for him Homosexuality is bourgeois excess according to the ussr under stalin so, you'll have to keep it hush hush The dude did like doodling naked fellas though. Idk shoot your shot
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 03:45
|
|
|
they're lifting me up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmGKICQlnWs BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 07:23 on Aug 12, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 03:47
|
|
|
I mean I think that's just them having to grapple with the limited things they can push against at any one time. Honestly I don't see any communist nation in the future doing anything but progressing on social issues. There's simply no room for homophobia in Marx's work regardless of what his own opinions were.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 03:49
|
|
|
HiroProtagonist posted:this reads like chomsky, eliding everything that happened pre-euromaidan and just assuming it de facto happened rather than looking at why the maidan occurred. basic bitch historiography assuming the western elite just suddenly took an interest after 2014 Complaining that Volodymyr Ishchenko of all people is lacking a properly nuanced understanding of the Maidan and its causes is  Maybe try a different article? He's only written a couple of dozen or so on exactly these subjects. https://fu-berlin.academia.edu/VolodymyrIshchenko https://www.academia.edu/59024293/How_Maidan_Revolutions_Reproduce_and_Intensify_the_Post_Soviet_Crisis_of_Political_Representation https://www.academia.edu/36418205/Denial_of_the_Obvious_Far_Right_in_Maidan_Protests_and_Their_Danger_Today https://www.academia.edu/20445056/The_Ukrainian_Left_during_and_after_the_Maidan_Protests. https://www.academia.edu/6766436/Maidan_or_anti_Maidan_The_Ukraine_situation_requires_more_nuance But hey, if he doesn't pass your Marxist purity test, let me know who does, I'd be interested in their view.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 03:51
|
|
|
Needing to debate Stalin as a proxy for the value of Marxism is a trap no matter what because you're ultimately trying to prove if the decisions made in a different society with different conditions were the right ones or not. The particular alliances and actions that Lenin took in the Russian Revolution are unlikely to be able to directly apply to what would be happening in a revolutionary moment in the modern era. Not to say to discard the lessons of the past but Marxism needs to be treated as a living mode of analyzing the current material conditions in order to figure out how to move forward, not something to endlessly cycle on debates from the more and more distant past.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 05:20
|
|
|
there's something deeper at hand than whether they specifically needed to purge 10% fewer party members or whatever. it's ultimately about whether you're going to accept that communism is the really-existing movement to abolish the present state of things, or, to quote another theorist, whether you understand the necessity of going to war with the army you have rather than the army you want. if your understanding of 20th century socialism is that it's just a series of revolutions being betrayed by evil and/or stupid men while yakety sax plays in the background you're not going to be able to organize so much as a bake sale because it will always be necessary to adapt to unforeseen conditions and to make present sacrifices for future gains
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 06:01
|
|
|
personally i understand the argument that you shouldn't try to defend stalin and his accomplishments. it's a coward's argument, it's conceding one of the most successful communist leaders because of a few mistakes to his enemies, whilst downplaying the many great developments the soviet union went through with his guidance. the soviet union wasn't a dictatorship, there were many communist leaders that helped them defeat fascism, but stalin is the figurehead and if you concede to liberals that he was an evil man, you've basically fallen for black propaganda. i agree with mao that stalin was 70/30 good/bad in his decisions, but that's a discussion to be had between communists. if you don't have the moral courage to defend stalin against liberals, despite it's unpopularity, you've already conceded in your own mind that communism is comparable to fascism. hence, "stalin did nothing wrong"
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 06:25
|
|
|
its possible to defend stalin and also be normal
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 06:26
|
|
|
it would be easier to defend stalin had the union he maintained lasted more than a few decades after his death. I get exigencies and chance, but for having a monopoly of authority over the party, you'd figure lining up successors and reasoning out some long term planning would either have been a higher priority or would've worked out better
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 06:53
|
|
|
Shiroc posted:Needing to debate Stalin as a proxy for the value of Marxism is a trap no matter what because you're ultimately trying to prove if the decisions made in a different society with different conditions were the right ones or not. it's also something that every left-leaning person gets thrown at them regularly no matter their personal thoughts on the matter. whether you're a MTW or a capital-friendly EU socdem, sooner or later you're going to be held personally responsible for the
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 07:01
|
|
|
It feels discussing how and why China and Cuba have been able to continue on when the Soviet Union hasn't existed in 30 years feels like it doesn't come up enough. To limit the viewpoint to Lenin, Stalin, the Soviet Union feels like treating communism as something that is doomed to failure unless you can guarantee hand offs to singular great men.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 07:12
|
|
|
Shiroc posted:It feels discussing how and why China and Cuba have been able to continue on when the Soviet Union hasn't existed in 30 years feels like it doesn't come up enough. To limit the viewpoint to Lenin, Stalin, the Soviet Union feels like treating communism as something that is doomed to failure unless you can guarantee hand offs to singular great men. i gotta say though, reading about the stalin period, there is some alarming stuff that happened and the personality cult took on gigantic proportions, and i wonder if this uncritical worship of stalin turned to its opposite with complete negation. but if socialism produced stalin, and then you completely bin stalin, then you open the door to negating socialism eventually. that seems to be one of the conclusions that the CPC drew from the soviet experience. there was also a horrendous and total war that happened during that timeframe, and a cult of personality like that makes me wonder whether it was at least in part an unwilled mechanism for figuring out who was an enemy and who was a traitor without getting bogged down in ideological arguments. like a necessity borne from circumstances. BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 07:46 on Aug 12, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 07:29
|
|
|
F Stop Fitzgerald posted:its possible to defend stalin and also be normal i have some experiences with people like this. they can have their hearts in the right place, but they're like doofuses who have mainly learned about this stuff from internet memes and haven't really absorbed it. same, i guess. but that can lead to embarassment around older people who have been in this thing for a long time, and who are not necessarily right about everything, but have actually read all 13 volumes of stalin's collected works back in the 70s and developed an independent opinion about him. i try to find the universal irony in things, because there are very smart and well-read people that you can meet, and these internet games won't take you very far around them. there is no equal to stalin and his remarkable achievements to marxism-leninism... *long pause* "well, other than the national question, what books from stalin would you recommend?" "ahh... i... umm..." 
BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 07:44 on Aug 12, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 07:38
|
|
|
What is the framing of Mao in China today? I had the impression that he was not treated as infallible and that his status within the party was up and down even while he was alive.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 07:43
|
|
|
Shiroc posted:What is the framing of Mao in China today? I had the impression that he was not treated as infallible and that his status within the party was up and down even while he was alive. "70% right, 30% wrong" has been the official party stance since the Deng Xiaoping days.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 08:06
|
|
|
what was the party's evaluation of deng?
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 08:10
|
|
|
The Voice of Labor posted:what was the party's evaluation of deng? Can't say I know much beyond him being lauded as the man who got the ball rolling for China's economic growth (i.e. Socialism with Chinese Characteristics) and Tiananmen being a sore subject to this day. The China that we know is pretty much his baby.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 08:35
|
|
|
the people's republic of walmart guy is apparently this now https://twitter.com/Leigh_Phillips/status/1557448127514259456 https://twitter.com/NiaFrome/status/1557743944951386112
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 09:31
|
|
|
yeah that's not surprising considering what he wrote about actually existing socialism in People's Republic of Walmart
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 09:50
|
|
|
Just read Kautsky's Ultra-Imperialism, dude was a loving hootquote:There is no economic necessity for continuing the arms race after the World War, even from the standpoint of the capitalist class itself, with the exception of at most certain armaments interests. On the contrary, the capitalist economy is seriously threatened precisely by the contradictions between its States. Every far-sighted capitalist today must call on his fellows: capitalists of all countries, unite !
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 10:11
|
|
|
F Stop Fitzgerald posted:its possible to defend stalin and also be normal I’m normal and did this in front of one of my Russian friends and she told me I sounded like her grandparents.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 12:40
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/open_sketchbook/status/1557822376771031040 And all those trees would become IKEA furniture once the Soviet Union collapsed. So many carbon sinks gone, like tears in the rain.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 12:46
|
|
|
i upheld stalin to the annoyed lady at the grocery store counter and then everybody stood up and clapped
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 13:28
|
|
|
AnimeIsTrash posted:I’m normal and did this in front of one of my Russian friends and she told me I sounded like her grandparents. highest possible praise
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 13:31
|
|
|
mila kunis posted:i upheld stalin to the annoyed lady at the grocery store counter and then everybody stood up and clapped this
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 13:31
|
|
|
I shan’t be letting any Amerifat scold me about Stalin.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 13:31
|
|
|
thechosenone posted:I mean I think that's just them having to grapple with the limited things they can push against at any one time. If this is about "homosexuality as bourgeois excess," I don't think so. Stalin specifically recriminalized homosexuality after Lenin decriminalized it. That doesn't make him especially homophobic for a world leader in the 20s, but he didn't have to roll back Lenin's reforms. (Here I'm using "Stalin" and "Lenin" as shorthand for their regimes. Neither man was making policy decisions completely on their own, but I don't really have the ability to tease out how much of each of these leaders were specifically responsible for each of these decisions.) The 70/30 ratio seems accurate to me in a purely "squinting and shooting from the hip" sort of way, and this is definitely in the latter category.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 13:34
|
|
|
I thought homosexuality's decriminalization during the Lenin-era was mainly just a byproduct of everything from the Tsarist days being scrapped.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 13:40
|
|
|
Shiroc posted:What is the framing of Mao in China today? I had the impression that he was not treated as infallible and that his status within the party was up and down even while he was alive.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 13:46
|
|
|
actually following the Russian revolution things like homosexuality and abortion were decriminalized and not just because old czarists laws were struck down but when the criminal codes were drafted for the early ussr they were specifically and deliberately left off. the ussr recriminalized those things in the 30s under Stalin. this likely happened on large part because all of the revolutionaries who had spent their lives and livelihoods fighting for things like womens rights before the revolution were killed either by civil war or Stalins purges 
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 14:34
|
|
|
its true though that every socialist has to be prepared to respond to people who want to question stalin or use him as a means to delegitimize socialist ideas and luckily we can just point to the fact that the people who idolize stalin today in the US are all either weirdos wearing soviet cosplay to protests or posters on fringe message boards and so in every case totally absent from the labor movement. or in rare cases they get jobs as union staffers where they hide their ideas from rank and file members only to either slowly alienate them all anyway as they drip feed their feelings about how north korea is a paradise or never reveal their actual thoughts and ideas to the people they work with and endorse joe biden 
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 14:44
|
|
|
*in a badly inflected Scottish accent* vote joe no matter who
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 14:48
|
|
|
apropos to nothing posted:its true though that every socialist has to be prepared to respond to people who want to question stalin or use him as a means to delegitimize socialist ideas and luckily we can just point to the fact that the people who idolize stalin today in the US are all either weirdos wearing soviet cosplay to protests or posters on fringe message boards and so in every case totally absent from the labor movement. or in rare cases they get jobs as union staffers where they hide their ideas from rank and file members only to either slowly alienate them all anyway as they drip feed their feelings about how north korea is a paradise or never reveal their actual thoughts and ideas to the people they work with and endorse joe biden its ture. everyone who likes stalin is bad and crazy. everyone who doesnt is doing the hard work out there in the labor movement.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 14:52
|
|
|
I'm going to toot my own horn here just a little when I say that I could have come at that poster with an "well actually" about Stalin being an environmentalist, but it was marginally less abnormal to post my take here, in the Marxism thread, instead
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 14:55
|
|
|
apropos to nothing posted:its true though that every socialist has to be prepared to respond to people who want to question stalin or use him as a means to delegitimize socialist ideas and luckily we can just point to the fact that the people who idolize stalin today in the US are all either weirdos wearing soviet cosplay to protests or posters on fringe message boards and so in every case totally absent from the labor movement. or in rare cases they get jobs as union staffers where they hide their ideas from rank and file members only to either slowly alienate them all anyway as they drip feed their feelings about how north korea is a paradise or never reveal their actual thoughts and ideas to the people they work with and endorse joe biden Weird thoughts
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 14:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 14:16 |
|
|
apropos to nothing posted:its true though that every socialist has to be prepared to respond to people who want to question stalin or use him as a means to delegitimize socialist ideas and luckily we can just point to the fact that the people who idolize stalin today in the US are all either weirdos wearing soviet cosplay to protests or posters on fringe message boards and so in every case totally absent from the labor movement. or in rare cases they get jobs as union staffers where they hide their ideas from rank and file members only to either slowly alienate them all anyway as they drip feed their feelings about how north korea is a paradise or never reveal their actual thoughts and ideas to the people they work with and endorse joe biden I thought the removal of pro-stalin sentiment from the union hierarchy was a very intentional purge under taft-hartley.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2022 15:03
|
|
