(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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while i do not partake in defending stalin to the normies myself i have never seen any evidence that denouncing those who do will make you sound any better yourself, and in any case don’t recognize any virtues in denigrating comrades in hopes of making yourself look better in comparison
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Aug 12, 2022 15:07
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 11:51 |
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Falstaff posted:If this is about "homosexuality as bourgeois excess," I don't think so. Stalin specifically recriminalized homosexuality after Lenin decriminalized it. That doesn't make him especially homophobic for a world leader in the 20s, but he didn't have to roll back Lenin's reforms. (Here I'm using "Stalin" and "Lenin" as shorthand for their regimes. Neither man was making policy decisions completely on their own, but I don't really have the ability to tease out how much of each of these leaders were specifically responsible for each of these decisions.) these were also pretty homophobic societies generally. i have a personal theory that arguments about homosexuality being like a fascist or capitalist disease came from a misrecognition, or essentializing homosexuality to be about egoistic sleaze and decadence, because everything bad about capitalist culture you can find in gay culture, but i think it's easy for straight people to "see" it among gay people which then "defines" the culture in the eyes of the straights. it's not "the fault" of gay people, the sleazy stuff is just immediately recognizable to the straights because it takes a different form than the heterosexual version of the same which they've been immersed in their entire lives. fascism was also incredibly sleazy. look up the "nacht der amazonen" which was a SS general and munich mafia boss' attempt to market the city as an alternative vacation destination to paris for international businessmen and celebrities. it's gross and creepy as hell and is full epstein with teenage girls wearing skimpy BDSM-like outfits parading around. nude women painted in gold. the SS guy was a pimp and a bouncer in bars when he joined the nazi party in the 1920s. it's just a slave culture and slave society. it's like donald trump and his people. and they put gay people in concentration camps, held "responsible" for spreading a culture of "living it up" in weimar, while the nazis were doing all this stuff. so another element here was homophobia being weaponized by both fascists and communists in an ideological war. i think communists in germany also had a pejorative term for ernst rohm when he was outed but i can't remember what it was. like, people could've just been not as smart or sophisticated as people are today. you'll occasionally run into people who post on weird forums who will cite stalin as a rationalization for homophobia among communists. but it's not like people from the 1930s have the final judgement on that period of history. we do. not stalin or the KPD. and the people who come after us will have their own judgement from where they're standing. 
BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 15:24 on Aug 12, 2022 |
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Aug 12, 2022 15:19
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this allusion meant posted:while i do not partake in defending stalin to the normies myself i have never seen any evidence that denouncing those who do will make you sound any better yourself, and in any case don’t recognize any virtues in denigrating comrades in hopes of making yourself look better in comparison there are correct ideas and there are incorrect ideas. marxists struggle to find correct ideas because were materialists. theres no go along to get along, theres debate and discussion to clarify and hone ideas. if a stalinist is standing on a picket line with me im not gonna kick them off as long as theyre not disrupting it or attacking people like they did in the 20s/30s. when stalinist ideas are put forward though im gonna attack them politically. im only flippant here cause this is a comedy politics subforum of a comedy forum started by a dead domestic abuser. if people wanna argue that stalin doesnt represent the crystalization of a reactionary turn in the soviet state from where it started, theyre free to do so. people were discussing abortion/gay rights in the ussr and its actually one of the reasons that the russian revolution is the greatest event to ever happen in human history that the early bolsheviks and soviets did more than any other country of the time to ensure rights for women, lgbtq, and oppressed people. its beyond criminal then that the first ever workers state abandoned many of its principles when they criminalized those things later. if your union strikes for better conditions and the leadership works to ensure the success of the strike thats awesome, and if that same union and leadership then later agree to sell out half the workforce with a two tiered contract thats a betrayal. it doesnt mean that the union itself is evil, but it does mean the leadership and the political approach thats taken hold of the union are in need of renewal.
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Aug 12, 2022 15:35
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mila kunis posted:i upheld stalin to the annoyed lady at the grocery store counter and then everybody stood up and clapped https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC0Om8v8H7g
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Aug 12, 2022 15:43
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apropos to nothing posted:its true though that every socialist has to be prepared to respond to people who want to question stalin or use him as a means to delegitimize socialist ideas and luckily we can just point to the fact that the people who idolize stalin today in the US are all either weirdos wearing soviet cosplay to protests or posters on fringe message boards and so in every case totally absent from the labor movement. or in rare cases they get jobs as union staffers where they hide their ideas from rank and file members only to either slowly alienate them all anyway as they drip feed their feelings about how north korea is a paradise or never reveal their actual thoughts and ideas to the people they work with and endorse joe biden Dang, sounds like it was better when those guys were banned from union staff
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Aug 12, 2022 15:44
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apropos to nothing posted:its true though that every socialist has to be prepared to respond to people who want to question stalin or use him as a means to delegitimize socialist ideas and luckily we can just point to the fact that the people who idolize stalin today in the US are all either weirdos wearing soviet cosplay to protests or posters on fringe message boards and so in every case totally absent from the labor movement. or in rare cases they get jobs as union staffers where they hide their ideas from rank and file members only to either slowly alienate them all anyway as they drip feed their feelings about how north korea is a paradise or never reveal their actual thoughts and ideas to the people they work with and endorse joe biden The trigly trot here with no self-awareness 
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Aug 12, 2022 15:46
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yeah as marxists we do this and as posters we’re all good at saying the provocative thing and then retreating to the defensible serious position and saying to do the right thing irl yes very good not even an attack here just bantering
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Aug 12, 2022 15:47
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also calling people normies is very weird. im normal, and im a marxist. being a marxist doesnt make anyone special or different, it just means youve drawn revolutionary conclusions a little bit before your friends, neighbors, coworkers, etc. and you should work to try to lay the ground and make it easier for them when they also arrive at those conclusions. id also say that re: the discussion yall had earlier about reading marx, you should read with people, and not people online. you should read with individuals as part of a party or organization with the direct goal of applying what you read to the concrete actions you intend to take. typically if I meet someone who has read a bunch, usually online in isolation, or as part of a college course on marxism, I can bet with about 99% certainty that they will be a dead weight. because in all the time theyve read they havent applied anything politically and havent sought out organization in that time. vs someone whos never read marx at all but is leading their coworkers in a strike, or even someone whos spent their life canvassing for democrats but has finally gotten disilusioned with them, those individuals, when finally presented with marxists ideas, are the most effective and capable revolutionaries. and marxist ideas are not trasmitted by reading capital, its by presenting a marxist analysis of current events which leads people to draw out how those ideas apply to their current situation. its why marxists have to have a paper or periodical where they do exactly that, and if youre trying to introduce someone to marxist ideas you start there, because the best fighters want to know what ideas are useful to the movement now and once convinced then theyll engage in the longer process of learning the details and specifics.
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Aug 12, 2022 15:49
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Did Stalin even say anything directly about gay people? Even Cuba had a pretty bad anti LGBT+ period in the past, but they've done much to grow since then. You can either learn from all these and grow or not, it really makes no difference. Do agree that it's sus to call yourself a communist/socialist/whatever and not be a part of any organization that tries to organize the proletariat. AnimeIsTrash has issued a correction as of 15:55 on Aug 12, 2022 |
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Aug 12, 2022 15:51
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apropos to nothing posted:also calling people normies is very weird. im normal, and im a marxist. being a marxist doesnt make anyone special or different, it just means youve drawn revolutionary conclusions a little bit before your friends, neighbors, coworkers, etc. and you should work to try to lay the ground and make it easier for them when they also arrive at those conclusions. It’s like this guy keeps making poo poo up to argue against
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Aug 12, 2022 15:52
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AnimeIsTrash posted:Do agree that it's sus to call yourself a communist/socialist/whatever and be a part of any organization that tries to organize the proletariat. i think you and anyone else who thinks this way which seems to be a lot of the thread are showing that you either a. dont have a lot of experience actually organizing in the labor movement or b. dont really have a genuine analysis for the trajectory and present contradictions in the labor movement if you just default to being a union staffer=good. not even a knock against all union staffers but if you have any experience in militant labor action you understand intuitively the negative role these people can and do play, and often the people playing the most toxic role are self identified stalinists or anarchists. if youre a genuine marxist in the us the best place for you to fight for your ideas in any union is as a rank and file worker, not as a paid staffer.
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Aug 12, 2022 15:55
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apropos to nothing posted:id also say that re: the discussion yall had earlier about reading marx, you should read with people, and not people online there's a pandemic going on right now, I would not recommend this anyone want to talk about that? How organizing IRL is becoming exponentially harder due to the world of disease we now inhabit? Seems like a bad thing for the working class to be infected with diseases constantly
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Aug 12, 2022 15:57
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if nothing else im glad i could bring the thread together again in hating me and ill see you all again when i make the mistake of posting here again in another year or so 
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Aug 12, 2022 15:57
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apropos to nothing posted:also calling people normies is very weird. im normal, and im a marxist. being a marxist doesnt make anyone special or different, it just means youve drawn revolutionary conclusions a little bit before your friends, neighbors, coworkers, etc. and you should work to try to lay the ground and make it easier for them when they also arrive at those conclusions. no goon is normal
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Aug 12, 2022 15:58
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apropos to nothing posted:i think you and anyone else who thinks this way which seems to be a lot of the thread are showing that you either a. dont have a lot of experience actually organizing in the labor movement or b. dont really have a genuine analysis for the trajectory and present contradictions in the labor movement if you just default to being a union staffer=good. not even a knock against all union staffers but if you have any experience in militant labor action you understand intuitively the negative role these people can and do play, and often the people playing the most toxic role are self identified stalinists or anarchists. if youre a genuine marxist in the us the best place for you to fight for your ideas in any union is as a rank and file worker, not as a paid staffer. I forgot a word in there because I am phone posting but I agree with your general sentiments regarding this. I don't think I have ever claimed to be an expert or even have experience outside of the most basic about any of this.
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Aug 12, 2022 15:59
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apropos to nothing posted:if nothing else im glad i could bring the thread together again in hating me and ill see you all again when i make the mistake of posting here again in another year or so Yeah lets see if you’ll actually gently caress off this time after announcing your exit instead of threadshitting for a few more pages immediately afterwards
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Aug 12, 2022 15:59
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A union member who defends the DPRK is part of the tank and file
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Aug 12, 2022 16:01
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WampaLord posted:there's a pandemic going on right now, I would not recommend this ok one more for the road lol: you have to take action irl. wear a mask, protect yourself and all, but in what world do you build a serious and professional revolutionary organization without doing things irl? ive had many meetings over zoom during the pandemic but the chief question was always how do we get back to in person activity asap. the BLM protests of 2020 were the largest and most explosive protests in US history, and they happened during te height of the pandemic. the abortion rights protests of this summer less so but still the pandemic is in swing. if you werent present at those and trying to organize people and put forward marxist ideas as to how to win black liberation and abortion and LGBTQ rights, then i dunno what to say. and in person meetings and discussions are the preparation you do for the in person work of strikes, protests, occupations, etc.
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Aug 12, 2022 16:01
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MLSM posted:Yeah lets see if you’ll actually gently caress off this time after announcing your exit instead of threadshitting for a few more pages immediately afterwards you seem like a very lovely person to be around 
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Aug 12, 2022 16:03
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n95s are p solid protection just wear one indoors e: I dunno what protection there is for monkey pox tho
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Aug 12, 2022 16:03
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If you get Monkeypox from the handle of a picket sign those are pox marks to be proud of
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Aug 12, 2022 16:05
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pox marx
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Aug 12, 2022 16:06
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apropos to nothing posted:ok one more for the road lol: you have to take action irl. wear a mask, protect yourself and all, but in what world do you build a serious and professional revolutionary organization without doing things irl? ive had many meetings over zoom during the pandemic but the chief question was always how do we get back to in person activity asap. the BLM protests of 2020 were the largest and most explosive protests in US history, and they happened during te height of the pandemic. the abortion rights protests of this summer less so but still the pandemic is in swing. if you werent present at those and trying to organize people and put forward marxist ideas as to how to win black liberation and abortion and LGBTQ rights, then i dunno what to say. and in person meetings and discussions are the preparation you do for the in person work of strikes, protests, occupations, etc. lmao at "wear a mask" individual solutions to communal problems, thanks communism and the BLM protests happened when we had a much less transmissible variant spreading and were outdoors Raskolnikov38 posted:n95s are p solid protection just wear one indoors i wish leftist organizations were hardcore about n95 usage but the vast majority of them don't give a poo poo which is super sad
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Aug 12, 2022 16:07
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you can easily catch omicron just from passing someone on the street so "n95 indoors" doesn't do much, you gotta get everyone vaxxed which of course isn't going to happen because idiots think they're installing spyware into their blood now
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Aug 12, 2022 16:07
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AnimeIsTrash posted:Did Stalin even say anything directly about gay people? https://www.marxist.com/letter-to-stalin-can-a-homosexual-be-in-the-communist-party.htm quote:"Archive. An idiot and a degenerate. J. Stalin."
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Aug 12, 2022 16:07
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WampaLord posted:lmao at "wear a mask" i dont think you will have a problem keeping ppl away from you
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Aug 12, 2022 16:08
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im an idiot and a degenerate
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Aug 12, 2022 16:08
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apropos to nothing posted:also calling people normies is very weird. im normal, and im a marxist. being a marxist doesnt make anyone special or different, it just means youve drawn revolutionary conclusions a little bit before your friends, neighbors, coworkers, etc. and you should work to try to lay the ground and make it easier for them when they also arrive at those conclusions.
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Aug 12, 2022 16:08
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AnimeIsTrash posted:i dont think you will have a problem keeping ppl away from you  working class being constantly infected with disease it is, I guess
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Aug 12, 2022 16:09
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WampaLord posted:
you covid thread freaks suck
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Aug 12, 2022 16:10
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AnimeIsTrash posted:you covid thread freaks suck I post in tons of threads, please respect my identity as a freak regardless of thread I am posting in, tia Materialism is all about sticking your head in the ground and ignoring bad things, right?
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Aug 12, 2022 16:10
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WampaLord posted:lmao at "wear a mask" the role of a revolutionary party is not to make the perfect world we want n microcosm but to organize to win the world we want for everyone. covid exists there’s nothing we can do about that yet. at every meeting I am everyone present is vaxxed and wears masks, that’s more than can be said about when I am forced to go to work where I am exposed to covid but n a constant basis. I have had covid and was hospitalized due to it. if you want to “organize” online indefinitely then I think you will be totally ineffective.
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Aug 12, 2022 16:13
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:i've read a little bit about it so i'm not very confident in my judgement of the era, but when "socialism had been achieved" under stalin, there was a conservative shift in some respects because conservatism was no longer seen as upholding capitalist relations, but now upholding socialist relations. things that tended to individualize people became frowned upon. this is how people in the party could see no contradiction between socialism and rebanning homosexuality and abortion even though many did at the time. this also seemed like a worldwide trend at the time including in the U.S. which tightened up "moral" codes in various sectors like the entertainment industry, a ferocious campaign against homosexuality in the 1930s, etc. nymphenburger. Also, where do I look up nacht der amazonen?
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Aug 12, 2022 16:13
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apropos to nothing posted:I have had covid and was hospitalized due to it drat that sucks rear end, sounds like material conditions that the working class is going to have to adapt to and avoid as much as possible.
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Aug 12, 2022 16:16
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AnimeIsTrash posted:you covid thread freaks suck the covid thread is a great example of the failings of individualist focused societies, where after generations of the collapse of the state as a force that can provide good and aid, and now multiple years of its response to a pandemic being overtly saying 'eh, maybe you should die for the DOW, did you think of that?' the best solution people come up with is 'well I wear a full body gimp suit and gas mask to Walmart to protect myself and yell at people who have to leave their homes still'. Individualism is the death of a society.
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Aug 12, 2022 16:16
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WampaLord posted:drat that sucks rear end, sounds like material conditions that the working class is going to have to adapt to and avoid as much as possible. yea, see, this, this is real pervert poo poo, real sick freak poo poo you only say if your brain is too poisoned by the idea of the individual being the ultimate power
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Aug 12, 2022 16:17
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WampaLord posted:drat that sucks rear end, sounds like material conditions that the working class is going to have to adapt to and avoid as much as possible. Just use zoom instead so the cops have a digital record of your revolutionary activities
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Aug 12, 2022 16:18
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sexpig by night posted:yea, see, this, this is real pervert poo poo, real sick freak poo poo you only say if your brain is too poisoned by the idea of the individual being the ultimate power What. I would like the pandemic to end. If I were in charge I'd implement Super China policies, pay everyone to stay home and get the loving germs to stop spreading so that people can resume actual normal life again, including organizing the working class.
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Aug 12, 2022 16:19
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"I've never read Marx's Capital, but I've got the pox marks of capital all over my body."
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Aug 12, 2022 16:19
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 11:51 |
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MLSM posted:Just use zoom instead so the cops have a digital record of your revolutionary activities apropos to nothing posted:if you want to “organize” online indefinitely then I think you will be totally ineffective. WampaLord posted:I would like the pandemic to end. If I were in charge I'd implement Super China policies, pay everyone to stay home and get the loving germs to stop spreading so that people can resume actual normal life again, including organizing the working class. I am not saying "we need to shift to zoom"
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Aug 12, 2022 16:19
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