(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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Raskolnikov38 posted:yeah just lemme table foggy bottom lol. we can hit up langley after! its sad that you think this is an own. like you genuinely dont believe there are working class people in the dc metro area that can be won to socialism. and so like, this is an example of where these kinda weird eclectic online leftist politics gets you. im not even trying to pick on you personally or anything because this would be true of prolly the majority of people on the forums. but like, if youre a marxist you work to organize workers where youre at. if I was in DC i would be tabling in every neighborhood and area with foot traffic i could until i found the locations where socialist ideas were more popular. if there werent any then id refine my ideas so they resonate better with workers in the area. if your political ideas dont lead you to act on them then what good are your political ideas?
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Aug 14, 2022 00:46
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mila kunis posted:i don't really care about "trotskyism" and i think 20th century internal russian political schisms aren't really that relevant today. but my personal experience is that everyone i've encountered who self identifies as "trot" has been an antagonistic rear end in a top hat. shes literally the archetypical modern trotskyist though. everything she does is decided by the filthy trots that run our organization. when people say stuff like they like kshama but hate sa it shows a real lack of understanding because shes the result of our politics and approach. you may not be in the us though dunno. if im antagonistic on here its cause its a fyad lite forum on the mean comedy website started by a dead child abuser so its like, part of the point at least. irl im a 
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Aug 14, 2022 00:49
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apropos to nothing posted:shes literally the archetypical modern trotskyist though. everything she does is decided by the filthy trots that run our organization. when people say stuff like they like kshama but hate sa it shows a real lack of understanding because shes the result of our politics and approach. you may not be in the us though dunno. i dont know too much about sa, i've had negative experiences with self identified trots that i've personally had to deal with (utterly pointless sectarianism and fight starting in, of all things, a tenants rights org). i also dont care about the ideology having opinions i dont like in practical day to day organizing, i do care about getting along and not driving good people away. so when you come in here with poo poo about 'stalinists' not being true marxists, or everyone being smelly goons that don't do any work irl, playing to a theoretical lurker etc that just fits perfectly in line with behaviour i've experienced elsewhere.
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Aug 14, 2022 01:07
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apropos to nothing posted:shes literally the archetypical modern trotskyist though. everything she does is decided by the filthy trots that run our organization. when people say stuff like they like kshama but hate sa it shows a real lack of understanding because shes the result of our politics and approach. you may not be in the us though dunno. This poo poo is really annoying and doesn’t make you or the organization (which seems unable to spread outside of liberal urban conclaves, just like every other dead-end org) you’re a part of come off well. Raskolnikov38 posted:yeah just lemme table foggy bottom lol. we can hit up langley after! This is a poor excuse for inaction though. You will have to overcome fear of what could happen if you ever want to put your beliefs into practice.
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Aug 14, 2022 01:08
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I love all of these Very Serious Political Parties with like 0 chapters in the south. At least DSA has coverage!
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Aug 14, 2022 01:15
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unwantedplatypus posted:This poo poo is really annoying and doesn’t make you or the organization (which seems unable to spread outside of liberal urban conclaves, just like every other dead-end org) you’re a part of come off well. im being flippant to people because they are defending stalin lol. like you can say "he did good things" like yeah no doubt, napoleon did a lot of good things too but he doesnt represent the tradition of genuine revolutionaries. if youre a marxist you draw lessons from history so you can repeat the victories and avoid the losses. are people hear looking to emulate the actions and methods of stalin? if so then yeah im gonna make pointed arguments cause i believe very sincerely those are very bad politics. historical events do have a lot of relevance to today, the debates of 100 years ago are still going on today and people are still debating their meanings, their relevance, which way was correct etc. like this whole debate from last month is a good example, its very much a continuation of the debates between the bolsheviks and mensheviks of over 100 years ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64UjVAoWwGs&t=1636s
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Aug 14, 2022 01:16
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unwantedplatypus posted:I love all of these Very Serious Political Parties with like 0 chapters in the south. At least DSA has coverage! i live in the south and im also a dsa member. are you in dsa? if not what organizations program do you agree with? i ask about organizations and parties cause usually what i see when i scan this thread is people just complaining and poo poo talking organizations and parties, and not actually arguing for the program they are for or agree with, which basically just encourages inaction which is bad.
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Aug 14, 2022 01:18
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I've worked closely with Socialist Alternative and they have some good people but they have a band of wide eyed dipshits who are unable to relate to anyone. I've spent time talking to Kshama personally and she's very smart and dedicated but her power and achievements are wildly overstated. If Socialist Alternative was nearly as powerful as people pretend, Seattle politics wouldn't be continually getting more right wing.
Shiroc has issued a correction as of 01:29 on Aug 14, 2022 |
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Aug 14, 2022 01:19
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So if you’re continuing a long tradition that has its roots 100 years ago. What has your side done in the intervening time? Like actual concrete results for the working class? What have Trotskyists built?
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Aug 14, 2022 01:21
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Shiroc posted:I've worked closely with Socialist Alternative and they have some good people but they have a band of wide eyed dipshits who are unable to relate to anyone. I've spent time talking to Kshama personally and she's very smart and dedicated but her power and achievements are wildly overstated. If Socialist Alternative was nearly as powerful as people pretend, Seattle politics wouldn't be continually getting more right wing outside. what organizations or parties would you recommend instead? im not even being flippant when im askin this of people i wanna know. you seem to kinda pop in here when i do to poo poo talk SA and im here for it cause i got love for the haters but also what would be the politics you would put forward as an alternative?
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Aug 14, 2022 01:23
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apropos to nothing posted:i live in the south and im also a dsa member. are you in dsa? if not what organizations program do you agree with? i ask about organizations and parties cause usually what i see when i scan this thread is people just complaining and poo poo talking organizations and parties, and not actually arguing for the program they are for or agree with, which basically just encourages inaction which is bad. Im still learning about this side of leftism, but the PSL is closest to what I believe. I’m probably just going to join the regional DSA though.
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Aug 14, 2022 01:26
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unwantedplatypus posted:So if you’re continuing a long tradition that has its roots 100 years ago. im saying those debates still exist and its why debates about things like the nature of the ussr/stalin/etc. are still relevant. im not sure what you mean by my side but im in SA, always open about that, you can check out what weve done and judge yourself. my guess is you and many others here would prolly say our accomplishments are pathetic and id obviously disagree but there ya go. member of other organizations too but thats my main political home.
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Aug 14, 2022 01:27
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apropos to nothing posted:what organizations or parties would you recommend instead? im not even being flippant when im askin this of people i wanna know. you seem to kinda pop in here when i do to poo poo talk SA and im here for it cause i got love for the haters but also what would be the politics you would put forward as an alternative? I think we need better ones because the ones that exist are all largely inert and function to piss away energy into pointless stuff. I poo poo talk SA because I have so much direct experience that has shown to me how utterly irrelevant the org is in Seattle outside of the activist blob that surrounds city council politics, while you try to pretend its the loving revolutionary vanguard.
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Aug 14, 2022 01:32
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unwantedplatypus posted:Im still learning about this side of leftism, but the PSL is closest to what I believe. I’m probably just going to join the regional DSA though. what is it about PSLs program that motivates you? and also why not join if you find yourself in agreement with their program most? i know a lot of people will say theres no chapter or whatever they call their local units close but the reality is the way that changes is you build it. not saying this of you but my experience is a lot of people join an organization looking for the organization to like do something for them, and all they do is arm you with the ideas and the program, but its you that has to build it. thats why im always asking about this stuff cause like, thats what is needed, test your ideas out in the wider class. hell maybe stalin is right and i deserve to be brutally murdered but only way we'll find out is if a bunch of working class people are won over to stalinist ideas and the only way that happens is people go out and test their ideas. plenty of people in the thread do that, not saying they dont. ferrinus is in dsa i know, i just usually ignore him cause i know we disagree and also when i do argue with him the whole thread ends up making fun of him and i feel bad about it. the thread also makes fun of me sometimes too but thats fine 
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Aug 14, 2022 01:32
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apropos to nothing posted:im saying those debates still exist and its why debates about things like the nature of the ussr/stalin/etc. are still relevant. im not sure what you mean by my side but im in SA, always open about that, you can check out what weve done and judge yourself. my guess is you and many others here would prolly say our accomplishments are pathetic and id obviously disagree but there ya go. member of other organizations too but thats my main political home. The accomplishments of Trotskyist’s over the past 100 years are pathetic compared to building several socialist nations capable of geo-politically challenging western imperialism/capitalism. That’s what made me change my view from being a demsoc, These leftist traditions that you set yourself in opposition to built an honest-to-god economic alternative to the capitalism we see today. That’s why it’s so ridiculous to come in here as the ear worm for the every man. I’ve been exposed to these arguments before I was radicalized. Socialism can smell of failure to Americans, but 20th century socialist ideologies without concrete results REEK of failure. unwantedplatypus has issued a correction as of 01:40 on Aug 14, 2022 |
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Aug 14, 2022 01:33
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i don't think you come across as a scold or negative bud. you can be cynical and critical without being those things - negativity is bad for you, a little cynicism is healthy.
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Aug 14, 2022 01:34
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Shiroc posted:I think we need better ones because the ones that exist are all largely inert and function to piss away energy into pointless stuff. I poo poo talk SA because I have so much direct experience that has shown to me how utterly irrelevant the org is in Seattle outside of the activist blob that surrounds city council politics, while you try to pretend its the loving revolutionary vanguard. i dont think SA is a revolutionary vanguard. ive spent time in seattle and disagree with your pov, its largely the results of things in seattle from 2012-2014 that caused me to join. typically i find that if you find every other organization on the left disagreeable then often that is a you problem and not a them problem, but if youre right and have a better idea for what an active fighting working class organization should look like and fight for than any of those that currently exist then you should form one with the people who agree with you or you can convince of your ideas
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Aug 14, 2022 01:40
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i know and organize with a former SA member. she joined the org because of a literal bait and switch - like they put out that they were doing a bernie canvass but just ended up folding people into their own reading groups/recruitment drives instead. internally talked about "infiltrating" DSA. we've been over the BDS thing already. to be avoided it's simply wrong that stalin is characterized by "killing marxists". in the first place the great purge was a historical development that came out of the rapid growth of the party (read: it would have happened undee trotsky, because there were genuinely a lot of party members who shouldn't have been), not his personal clever idea. in the second place "killing marxists" characterizes every successful revolution ever because, as i said, coalitions do not outlast their own victories. a lot of menshevik "marxists" did not have a good time in the original bolshevik takeover. stalin and kruschev and molotov were old bolsheviks. there's no special essence that was imbued in the original revolutionaries whose tragic loss caused Degeneration. also the juche idea ftw
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Aug 14, 2022 01:41
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I think the first step to being a 'working class org' would be not having the other orgs go "okay, how do we keep SA from ruining this? oh gently caress they ran off and did stupid poo poo we have to try to fix"
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Aug 14, 2022 01:43
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i also dont think you can talk about getting people on board with marxism by relating to their daily lives and struggles and also that simultaneously you need to rehash stalin v trotsky and all that crap like what purpose does USSR bashing serve for a self-professed marxist. "all hitherto existing socialist societies degenerated and sucked rear end!! now come be a marxist with me" seems pretty contradictory.
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Aug 14, 2022 01:43
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i appreciate you mean socialist alternative but I keep reading these as if being a goon was a political organization
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Aug 14, 2022 01:43
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apropos to nothing posted:what is it about PSLs program that motivates you? and also why not join if you find yourself in agreement with their program most? i know a lot of people will say theres no chapter or whatever they call their local units close but the reality is the way that changes is you build it. not saying this of you but my experience is a lot of people join an organization looking for the organization to like do something for them, and all they do is arm you with the ideas and the program, but its you that has to build it. thats why im always asking about this stuff cause like, thats what is needed, test your ideas out in the wider class. hell maybe stalin is right and i deserve to be brutally murdered but only way we'll find out is if a bunch of working class people are won over to stalinist ideas and the only way that happens is people go out and test their ideas. I do not have the time, energy, or money to start a branch in my area. That’s just a fact. And for PSL I like their foreign policy. I like that they managed to put a candidate on the ballot in my state. Going to vote was like the first time I’d heard about them. The greens didn’t even bother lol. Also all of their economic and social stances I generally agree with.
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Aug 14, 2022 01:43
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mila kunis posted:i also dont think you can talk about getting people on board with marxism by relating to their daily lives and struggles and also that simultaneously you need to rehash stalin v trotsky and all that crap pretty sure above I said that even up until it collapsed the ussr was a progressive political force, and if i didnt i thought it and would say it to anyone who asked. it was, but you gotta be able to explain why it collapsed and how to avoid the mistakes that led to it. i have a different understanding of why that happened than a lot of posters itt.
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Aug 14, 2022 01:47
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Stopping an insanely cynical recall vote by 300 votes that needed absolutely all hands on deck for months to the detriment of helping any of the other candidates: "Ah, proof of the powerful working class movement Socialist Alternative has built in Seattle"
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Aug 14, 2022 01:48
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unwantedplatypus posted:I do not have the time, energy, or money to start a branch in my area. That’s just a fact. i dont know how PSL operates but like, I have started and helped start branches of SA in states I dont even live in. dues to a working class organization shouldnt be any more than equivalent union dues, time wise yeah its definitely a sacrifice but if you believe that socialism is the only answer to the problems of humanity then ya gotta do it. the energy, well that comes from the politics, if you believe in it then you find the energy. none of this is like saying youre bad if you dont or whatever but just again, having politics that you dont work to put into practice is the same as having no politics at all. if you get involved with DSA thats good too but to have any effect it takes time and energy too. DSA takes up way less of my time than SA but its still something I've had to sacrifice for, just like everyone else whos active in it.
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Aug 14, 2022 01:52
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I have health issues and a job and I’m a student. When I say I don’t have time or energy I mean it. And I don’t have money to eat out. I don’t have money to organize events for people. I’m willing to pay dues. But thanks for making me explain myself!
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Aug 14, 2022 01:54
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none of these groups matter, the only one that does is DSA because of its sheer size but even then they don’t because they just bootlick the dems and run around in circles because it’s decentralized as gently caress. if anyone has a plan or group working to organize the dsa as an entity separate from the democrats then point me to them
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Aug 14, 2022 01:54
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no ones making you explain yourself. but again, like just look at how many people come out of the woodwork to say we shouldnt organize and no political organizations are worth our time! thats not marxism. also i dont usually read ferrinus posts anymore but lol @ that one i will let you gentle reader find punchline(s) yourself 
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Aug 14, 2022 01:57
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Raskolnikov38 posted:none of these groups matter, the only one that does is DSA because of its sheer size but even then they don’t because they just bootlick the dems and run around in circles because it’s decentralized as gently caress. if anyone has a plan or group working to organize the dsa as an entity separate from the democrats then point me to them https://www.socialistalternative.org/2022/03/01/why-socialist-alternative-is-launching-a-caucus-in-dsa/
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Aug 14, 2022 01:59
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this has been my once yearly attempt to say thanks to whoever made it as i cant remember and yeah just like, please get organized and fight for socialist ideas cause thats what being a marxist is all about 
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Aug 14, 2022 02:02
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apropos to nothing posted:pretty sure above I said that even up until it collapsed the ussr was a progressive political force, and if i didnt i thought it and would say it to anyone who asked. it was, but you gotta be able to explain why it collapsed and how to avoid the mistakes that led to it. i have a different understanding of why that happened than a lot of posters itt. here is my understanding of why the ussr died: - the demographic and economic scarring left behind by the genocidal nazi invasion that they never really recovered from - economic strangulation by the west that shut them out of trade and having to carry the burden under constant blockade not just for themselves, but to support other socialist states like cuba and vietnam that were undergoing the same - having greatly increased life expectancy and population size within its borders, having to feed that population and maintain living standards was a major issue given most of russia is a frozen hellscape, so autarky was a no go - which meant trading for hard currency/resources in a pretty hostile environment, and the major thing they had for export was oil - reliance on the only fungible exports like oil that could escape the blockade, so that when the sauds crashed the price of oil, the resulting economic problems just mounted on top of everything else - the resultant economic problems and contradictions of actually achieving a socialist economy, full employment and freeing people from the whip hand of capitalist discipline. here's some fun excerpts from blackshirts and reds: quote:We have been taught that people living under communism suffer from "the totalitarian control over every aspect oflife," as Time magazine (5/27/96) still tells us. Talking to the people themselves, one found that they complained less about overbearing control than about the absence of responsible control. quote:There was the manager who regularly pilfered the till, the workers who filched foodstuffs and goods from state stores or supplies from factories in order to service private homes for personal gain, the peasants on collective farms who stripped parts from tractors to sell them on the black market, the director who accepted bribes to place people at the top of a waiting list to buy cars, and the farmers who hoarded livestock which they sold to townspeople at three times the government's low procurement price. All this was hardly the behavior of people trembling under a totalitarian rule of terror. quote:Not surprisingly, work discipline left much to be desired. There was the clerk who chatted endlessly with a friend on the telephone while a long line of people waited resentfully for service, the two workers who took three days to paint a hotel wall that should have taken a few hours, the many who would walk off their jobs to go shopping. quote:If fired, an individual had a constitutional guarantee to another job and seldom had any difficulty finding one. The labor market was a seller's market. Workers did not fe ar losing their jobs but managers fe ared losing their best workers and sometimes overpaid them to prevent them from leaving. quote:Communist economies had a kind of Wonderland quality in that " prices seldom bore any relation to actual cost or value. Many expen-sive services were provided almost entirely free, such as education, medical care, and most recreational, sporting, and cultural events. Housing, transportation, utilities, and basic foods were heavily subsidized. quote:Most people living under socialism had little understanding of capitalism in practice. Workers interviewed in Poland believed that if their factory were to be closed down in the transition to the free market, "the state will find us some other work" (New Yorker, 11/ 13/89). They thought they would have it both ways. In the Soviet Union, many who argued for privatization also expected the government to continue providing them with collective benefits and subsidies. quote:They discovered they could no longer leave their jobs during the day to go shopping, that their employers provided no company doctor when they fe ll ill on the job, that they were subject to severe reprimands when tardy, that they could not walk the streets and parks late at night without fear, that they might not be able to afford medical services for their family or college tuition for their children, and that they had no guarantee of a job and might experience unemployment at any time. these are obviously real problems but any kind of liberatory movement is going to run into the same issues - how do you enforce worker discipline in a non-post scarcity society when you provide guaranteed employment and heavily subsidized/free life basics and you're free from worrying about your survival. what solution does trotskyism offer over degenerate bureaucratic collectivism or whatever that elides this basic problem? mila kunis has issued a correction as of 02:10 on Aug 14, 2022 |
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Aug 14, 2022 02:07
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I don't know enough to pick a side, I'm still learning and following this thread is part of that, along with lots of other reading (next up: "socialism: utopian and scientific"). But every time one of these debates pops up I'm impressed that of all the discussion places I've seen, somehow the pig balls website is the biggest gatekeeper of marxism since the purges
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Aug 14, 2022 02:12
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disaster pastor posted:I don't know enough to pick a side, I'm still learning and following this thread is part of that, along with lots of other reading (next up: "socialism: utopian and scientific"). But every time one of these debates pops up I'm impressed that of all the discussion places I've seen, somehow the pig balls website is the biggest gatekeeper of marxism since the purges Do you mean most in-depth discussion wise or most petty and factional? Raskolnikov38 posted:none of these groups matter, the only one that does is DSA because of its sheer size but even then they don’t because they just bootlick the dems and run around in circles because it’s decentralized as gently caress. if anyone has a plan or group working to organize the dsa as an entity separate from the democrats then point me to them. In absence of a larger plan, as leftists we should be building working class power and conciousness. You do that by joining an organization and participating. None of these groups are perfect, but you just kinda gotta pick the left-most one that's functional and active.
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Aug 14, 2022 02:24
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DC has been heavily gentrified, but there is still housing organizing going on and struggles against police brutality. They are both up and down activity wise, but they are rooted in the concrete needs of the Black community of the city.
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Aug 14, 2022 02:44
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unwantedplatypus posted:In absence of a larger plan, as leftists we should be building working class power and conciousness. You do that by joining an organization and participating. None of these groups are perfect, but you just kinda gotta pick the left-most one that's functional and active. my opinion is there must be a larger plan or idea of a plan, rather than small, discrete, and disconnected activities, so who's got one? to the trots' credit taking over the DSA is a plan and a decent one albeit if not extremely on brand for trots
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Aug 14, 2022 03:10
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apropos to nothing posted:the best example of this is how so many people who lionize Stalin see north korea or china as socialist states. a bunch of people will jump down my neck and own me because China is sociaoist you stupid trot but I think time and the course of events are gonna show how out of touch that pov is. if you pay attention to international news and the labor movement it’s already evident but, well, so why did the thread let this person reframe the convo from this to organizing
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Aug 14, 2022 03:21
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Ferrinus posted:the juche idea ftw
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Aug 14, 2022 03:23
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apropos to nothing posted:the best example of this is how so many people who lionize Stalin see north korea or china as socialist states. a bunch of people will jump down my neck and own me because China is sociaoist you stupid trot but I think time and the course of events are gonna show how out of touch that pov is. if you pay attention to international news and the labor movement it’s already evident but, well, people in the US can start critiquing the political system in North Korea as insufficiently socialist when we at least force the US government to sign a peace treaty with them. The bigger issue in the US isn't a microscopic fraction of people idolizing North Korea, it's millions of people who don't realize that the US committed genocide there and still practices nuclear bombing runs against it every few years. The US government is still sanctioning the country and stopping fuel from being sent there! Even if the DPRK is a hermit monarchy, it should be a priority for US socialists to stop the war and sanctions. We've got people in the US relying on food banks for meals, who can't afford utilities, and who can't afford rent. What's going to win over more people if the topic of Korea comes up: 1. We're socialists, but not the weird socialists who uphold North Korea, North Korea isn't socialist 2. The US should get out of Korea and the resources now devoted to war should be used for social needs you could criticize 2 for not bringing up the potential for reparations and the role US imperialism plays in maintaining the standard of living in the US, but at least it's not contributing to the demonization of a US enemy. Lessail posted:so why did the thread let this person reframe the convo from this to organizing lol I just caught up and I've been thinking about how to respond to this post for like a half hour. It takes me at least 2 hours to come up with a good post btw
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Aug 14, 2022 03:25
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Raskolnikov38 posted:my opinion is there must be a larger plan or idea of a plan, rather than small, discrete, and disconnected activities, so who's got one? to the trots' credit taking over the DSA is a plan and a decent one albeit if not extremely on brand for trots How do you get to the point of a larger plan or idea without smaller more discrete actions? Nobody is going to show you The Unfallible Plan for American Socialism. You will have to commit yourself towards uncertainty. Any plan you can formulate will require a critical mass of three things, labor, money, and political centralization. No leftist org in the US really has all three, but that could change. You get enough DSA branches to break-away from national and agree to a more centralized structure, you'd have the nucleus of a decent party. If PSL or SALT got popular enough and got enough resources, you'd also have the nucleus of a decent party. Maybe there are others but idk of their existence. The SALT DSA caucus is a good idea imo.
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Aug 14, 2022 03:31
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Lessail posted:so why did the thread let this person reframe the convo from this to organizing is north korea an example of a socialist society that you would put forward to people in the streets in the us or anywhere else? do you see it as aspirational? if not then yeah why would you call it socialist? does china have a socialist mode of production? it doesnt. doesnt mean you agree that the US should destroy them but the reason the transition happened is cause if you actively put your politics forward to the people in the labor movement then you have to have politics that meet reality. if one of your coworkers asked you about your thoughts regarding north korea or china or the ussr or stalin or tito or trotsky or castro or whatever/whoever would you be able to give them a full and honest answer, like not hide your real views? i can and do, to coworkers and neighbors who are conservatives, who voted for trump, who are liberals, whatever. online spaces encourage this kind of weird politics where people say stuff that they would never say or agree to in person.
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Aug 14, 2022 03:32
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