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Fergie managing to win the league in his last season with a team built around Robin van Persie and a bunch of players in their 30s like Michael Carrick and Rio Ferdinand and Patrice Evra also papered over a lot of cracks in a squad that was aging but not being adequately replenished. Fergie's management and the performance of the really good older players hid a lot of problems in the squad. Rafael started 27 league games that season, Antonio Valencia 24, Tom Cleverley 18, Shinji Kagawa 17, and so on. It turned out players like that were capable of being role players on a title-winning side, but once the players who were the core of the team aged into retirement or limited playing time or leaving for other clubs, they were replaced by either players who weren't good enough, players who were big names but didn't fit the team, or players who were panic buys when the team was playing badly or the top targets didn't work out. Combine that bad recruitment policy failing to adequately renew the squad with a flailing style of upper management that has led to rapid turnover in coaches and therefore the failure to put in place a consistent play style or club philosophy or long-term plan, and you get a club that seems to lurch from false dawn to crisis to false dawn to crisis, all while spending just as much money as all the really top clubs but for much worse results.
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Aug 18, 2022 18:40
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the sex ghost posted:Ferguson's hand picked replacement to follow up 2 decades of success was a guy who made a career out of overachieving with tight budgets and low expectations, similar to himself when he took the job, except he took the job in the 80s and you can't really appoint managers based on the firmness of their handshake anymore Man-U reportedly contacted Klopp, but Klopp was still at Dortmund. Rafael Honigstein said the conversation went a bit like this: quote:[Manchester] United executive vice-chairman Ed Woodward had flown out to see Klopp in Germany. David Moyes's short tenure at Old Trafford was coming to an end, and Klopp was United's favourite to replace him, to bring back a sense of adventure to the Red Devils' game. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5073645/Klopp-wanted-Manchester-clubs-Tottenham.html My apologies for the Daily Mail link, but it was the best excerpt from Honigstein's book that I could find.
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Aug 18, 2022 18:59
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vyelkin posted:Fergie managing to win the league in his last season with a team built around Robin van Persie and a bunch of players in their 30s like Michael Carrick and Rio Ferdinand and Patrice Evra also papered over a lot of cracks in a squad that was aging but not being adequately replenished. Fergie's management and the performance of the really good older players hid a lot of problems in the squad. Rafael started 27 league games that season, Antonio Valencia 24, Tom Cleverley 18, Shinji Kagawa 17, and so on. It turned out players like that were capable of being role players on a title-winning side, but once the players who were the core of the team aged into retirement or limited playing time or leaving for other clubs, they were replaced by either players who weren't good enough, players who were big names but didn't fit the team, or players who were panic buys when the team was playing badly or the top targets didn't work out. This reminds me of the stupid poo poo behind the scenes as well, where LVG had installed a bunch of cameras and implemented tech to monitor player performance etc, then Mourinho got rid of it all, leaving Ole to try and put some of it back. Also there was no pastoral care for the players at the club with most of them left to their own devices after signing.
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Aug 18, 2022 19:25
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genuinely good reads that helped me understanding things better, thanks folks!
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Aug 18, 2022 19:46
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Jose posted:They don't need a new owner the glazer's have found someone else to give them money looking forward to man united fans glossing over the fact that this guy is their owner lol
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Aug 18, 2022 20:26
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EC10 posted:looking forward to man united fans glossing over the fact that this guy is their owner lol That's not Ratcliffe my dude
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Aug 18, 2022 20:30
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EC10 posted:looking forward to man united fans glossing over the fact that this guy is their owner lol United fans, noted for glossing over and being fine with lovely owners
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Aug 18, 2022 20:56
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Has anyone said that man United are poo poo because Fergie was papering over the cracks and the club’s recruitment has been poo poo yet?
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Aug 18, 2022 22:13
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Here is the real reason United are poo poo: God's will.
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Aug 18, 2022 22:17
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blue footed boobie posted:Has anyone said that man United are poo poo because Fergie was papering over the cracks and the club’s recruitment has been poo poo yet? I think so yes.
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Aug 18, 2022 22:26
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blue footed boobie posted:Has anyone said that man United are poo poo because Fergie was papering over the cracks and the club’s recruitment has been poo poo yet? Fergie was also bad because he was papering over his own cracks towards the end, if he hadn’t gotten the RvP title at the end he’d be remembered very differently imho
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Aug 18, 2022 22:47
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A Buffer Gay Dude posted:Fergie was also bad because he was papering over his own cracks towards the end, if he hadn’t gotten the RvP title at the end he’d be remembered very differently imho Go on.
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Aug 18, 2022 23:12
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Shrapnig posted:Go on. quote:team built around Robin van Persie and a bunch of players in their 30s like Michael Carrick and Rio Ferdinand and Patrice Evra He couldn’t connect with or develop young players anymore and the squad aging was very much his fault. He was an incredible coach he just got rolled by the changing environment, it happens to everyone. Anyway Tom cleverly lol remember that guy?
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Aug 19, 2022 03:49
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A Buffer Gay Dude posted:He couldn’t connect with or develop young players anymore and the squad aging was very much his fault. He was an incredible coach he just got rolled by the changing environment, it happens to everyone. Anyway Tom cleverly lol remember that guy? And you think that one fewer titles would have made us remember him differently?
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Aug 19, 2022 04:36
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TheRat posted:And you think that one fewer titles would have made us remember him differently? Yea I think that last title changed the narrative quite a bit. Sure that last title was great but was it worth SAF not setting the table for the club going forward? Heroic manager takes questionable squad to one last title sort of begs the question of why the squad was so questionable. He ran the dang place.
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Aug 19, 2022 05:09
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"What if Moyes kept Eric Steele, Mike Phelan and Rene Meulensteen" is the new "What if Wenger signed Ibra, Messi and Ronaldinho?"
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Aug 19, 2022 05:56
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A Buffer Gay Dude posted:Yea I think that last title changed the narrative quite a bit. Sure that last title was great but was it worth SAF not setting the table for the club going forward? What the gently caress are you saying?
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Aug 19, 2022 06:13
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T Bowl posted:What the gently caress are you saying? He's saying that if SAF wasn't as good a manager, we wouldn't hold him in as high regard
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Aug 19, 2022 06:36
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The team was a mess when he quit, making the job harder than it had to be for the next manager. Luckily he’s an important advisor now, which helped secure Ronaldo among other things and in general created a helpful environment for the club.
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Aug 19, 2022 07:01
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Modern techniques are better than old ones, news at 11.
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Aug 19, 2022 07:39
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T Bowl posted:Modern techniques are better than old ones, news at 11. then why have all the modern manchester united managers failed where the old guy with old techniques succeeded
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Aug 19, 2022 07:43
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Bogan Krkic posted:then why have all the modern manchester united managers failed where the old guy with old techniques succeeded He was the dark lord, OP
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Aug 19, 2022 07:49
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modern manU techniques seem to involve running the business to maximise revenue, not anything really football related the ronaldo purchase and the pogba repurchase make sense from a commercial standpoint - these players sell a lot of merchandise and PR deals etc - but somewhat less from a "winning at football" standpoint. the issue isn't so much investment as what's driving the investment imo. the glazers and their footmen are good at maximising money flow from an asset and realise that you have to spend to make, but they are not good at football. keeping fergie as a kind of weird ghost behind the scenes instead of just idk making him a strategy consultant reporting to the director of sports or something so he had an actual formal role in the hierarchy was also strange and unsettling.
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Aug 19, 2022 09:46
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Bogan Krkic posted:then why have all the modern manchester united managers failed where the old guy with old techniques succeeded Referees were scared of him
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Aug 19, 2022 09:47
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also they were the richest club until they werent
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Aug 19, 2022 10:08
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"Ferguson deliberately left the team in a mess" sure is a take
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Aug 19, 2022 10:25
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A Buffer Gay Dude posted:Fergie was also bad because he was papering over his own cracks towards the end, if he hadn’t gotten the RvP title at the end he’d be remembered very differently imho didn't he win the title something like 5 out of his last 7 years at the club?
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Aug 19, 2022 11:55
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NinpoEspiritoSanto posted:"Ferguson deliberately left the team in a mess" sure is a take
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Aug 19, 2022 11:56
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vyelkin posted:didn't he win the title something like 5 out of his last 7 years at the club? He did, 3 of those came back to back with the peak of the 08 CL winning team though, largely assembled before the Glazers came along, missing out on 2010 and 2012 after Ronaldo left, aided in 2013 by City absolutely downing tools once they'd broken their duck.
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Aug 19, 2022 12:14
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Flayer posted:More that he ran his race and left the team rebuilding to the new manager, which is the right thing to do if you have faith in your successor. Obviously that didn't work out. Wasn't it a case of them not spending much after the Glazers came in while he was still there, which is why the squad was weak? He squeezed one more season of good performances out of some of the older players then Moyes came in and wasn't able to do the same. The big spending/attempted squad rebuilding only really started under Van Gaal when they seemed to realise that Champions League wasn't guaranteed every season. Not saying they didn't spend, but they had fallen behind Chelsea/City by that stage I think.
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Aug 19, 2022 12:15
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Mickolution posted:Wasn't it a case of them not spending much after the Glazers came in while he was still there, which is why the squad was weak? He squeezed one more season of good performances out of some of the older players then Moyes came in and wasn't able to do the same. The big spending/attempted squad rebuilding only really started under Van Gaal when they seemed to realise that Champions League wasn't guaranteed every season. The whole "no value in the market" thing came up after Ronaldo was sold yeah. Money still got spent but was spread around more players for lower amounts. Ronaldo was "replaced" with Valencia, Obertan and Michael Owen.
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Aug 19, 2022 12:22
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Mickolution posted:Wasn't it a case of them not spending much after the Glazers came in while he was still there, which is why the squad was weak? To give you an example, he had to replace Ronaldo with Obertan
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Aug 19, 2022 12:22
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Bogan Krkic posted:then why have all the modern manchester united managers failed where the old guy with old techniques succeeded Man Utd are pretty old school behind the scenes, still. It's not just their stadium that's a rusted piece of poo poo. Been overtaken by most of the PL in a lot of ways.
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Aug 19, 2022 14:35
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NinpoEspiritoSanto posted:"Ferguson deliberately left the team in a mess" sure is a take
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Aug 19, 2022 15:02
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The huge "different timeline" thing was utd not going for conte. After seeing what he has done with spurs it just seems mad they didn't go for him. The stuff I read about maguire is almost word for word what spurs fans were saying about dier. Also loads of other players who many thought were either not good enough or what ever conte finds a system to make it work (davies etc). He also identifies players to slot into holes in the squad perfectly like kulusevski.
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Aug 19, 2022 15:10
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Yeah, United's insistence on hiring a coach with a "system" has really hosed them. They have a wierd collection of players who suit different ways of playing, and someone system agnostic like Conte or Anceloti could really have helped them.
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Aug 19, 2022 15:27
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Jippa posted:The huge "different timeline" thing was utd not going for conte. After seeing what he has done with spurs it just seems mad they didn't go for him. The other weird as gently caress take is from people that look at United's hilariously poo poo transfer strategy, then look at Conte and say, out loud around people, "United should have hired this man"
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Aug 19, 2022 15:36
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Jippa posted:The huge "different timeline" thing was utd not going for conte. After seeing what he has done with spurs it just seems mad they didn't go for him. can't believe conte found a hidden gem like..a juventus winger? also: it seems that ETH was hired partly because he wasn't as demanding as most other managers. If Conte was signed he would make big demands and gently caress off if they weren't met. Owners/Board don't want that.
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Aug 19, 2022 15:43
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UnderFreddy posted:ETH was hired partly because he wasn't as demanding as most other managers what
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Aug 19, 2022 15:49
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UnderFreddy posted:can't believe conte found a hidden gem like..a juventus winger? I said he was good at identifying players that the squad needed. Round pegs for round holes or whatever phrase you want. Also isn't it pretty clear that the owners/board don't know what they are doing? Wouldn't the players/fans want someone like conte?
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Aug 19, 2022 15:54
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