|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:OTOH Neil Gaiman is married to Amanda Palmer which has got to be problematic in some sort of way. They split up/divorced recently. (I think.) Edit: No, they are still together. It was a big bullshit performative drama thing where they announced they were breaking up, but it was just they were having issues isolating together during lockdown, and so on and so forth blah de blah de blah I shouldn't know or care so much about the personal drama of two strangers. I have enjoyed most of Gaimans work that I have read though. Amanda Palmer always stuck me as twee and pretentious though. BrigadierSensible has a new favorite as of 07:49 on Aug 19, 2022 |
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 07:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 16:01 |
|
|
cult_hero posted:But to be fair, he also depicted the moon as a TERF.... Moon's been cancelled, also hexed
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 08:01
|
|
|
Yeah the Moon thing was his biggest screw up in that storyline. He likes flawed idiot gods and was just showing that the moon goddess could be just as bigoted and short sighted as humans. But he doesn't make that clear AT ALL so it comes off as authorial voice saying 'yup it's the chromosomes that matter in the end'. vvv Don't want to derail this but that's the problem. Everyone else that dismisses Wanda is a bigot or a psycho but when the Moon Goddess simply doesn't provide her a path because she's a 'man' it comes across to many people that must be the 'real' opinion on it. So it's why Gaiman ends up on stupid lists like this when it's clear he doesn't hold those opinions in the slightest. Darkhold has a new favorite as of 09:10 on Aug 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 08:56
|
|
|
Darkhold posted:Yeah the Moon thing was his biggest screw up in that storyline. He likes flawed idiot gods and was just showing that the moon goddess could be just as bigoted and short sighted as humans. I dunno, I read the intention that the moon goddess was a total fuckhead from the story... But then again, I also usually overlook glaringly obvious things, so...
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 09:00
|
|
|
Darkhold posted:Yeah the Moon thing was his biggest screw up in that storyline. He likes flawed idiot gods and was just showing that the moon goddess could be just as bigoted and short sighted as humans. But then doesn't DEATH, the actual "in the end", have the correct opinion? Also there's a lot of woo pagans who are really TERFY because of Feminine Moon Goddess type things, kinda read to me as a reference to that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 09:05
|
|
|
There was no Moon Goddess in Sandman, the witch stole the moon to transport into the the dreaming and because the trans woman didn't have a period she couldn't go with the other women. And then not having a moon just caused natural disasters that lead to the house they were in collapsing and the trans woman died. It's not a great depiction, but if you were looking for a trans woman in popular media at the time you're other option was The Crying Game and basically nothing else. She had agency and choice and Barbie was genuinely sad about her dying and stood up to her family that didn't accept her even in death.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 09:11
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:There was no Moon Goddess in Sandman, the witch stole the moon to transport into the the dreaming and because the trans woman didn't have a period she couldn't go with the other women. And then not having a moon just caused natural disasters that lead to the house they were in collapsing and the trans woman died. It's not a great depiction, but if you were looking for a trans woman in popular media at the time you're other option was The Crying Game and basically nothing else. She had agency and choice and Barbie was genuinely sad about her dying and stood up to her family that didn't accept her even in death. Did all the women over 50 die too? 
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 09:16
|
|
|
The Moon thing might have lost some context now that the link between Wicca and terfs isn't as strong or as well-known among younger generations of feminists. Some people have also pointed out that Wanda finally being affirmed as feminine-looking in death isn't the greatest message to send, and that's probably a more valid objection and one Gaiman has acknowledged IIRC. All in all it's very much on the level of someone being a flawed ally at a time where those were still pretty rare. Personally I read A Game of You at an early enough age (and with little awareness of what transness even was) that I had no idea what was going on with Wanda, so the nightmares and the arguments felt very confusing. YaketySass has a new favorite as of 09:23 on Aug 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 09:18
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:Does it? Seems like his just a fat old idiot. And that’s not a crime lol I think I remember him being pretty lovely about it when people called him out on it, so the usual. Not a crime (most things on that list are not a crime), but sure doesn't reflect well on his character.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 09:35
|
|
|
A Game of You isn't great, but as cis dude who read it as an impressionable teenager I came away with the idea that "yeah, she's a woman even if her biology is different" and this was late 90's so I think my only other exposure to trans women in media was Jerry Springer episodes and Ace Ventura.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 09:37
|
|
|
Facebook Aunt posted:Did all the women over 50 die too? The moon wasn't directly murdering people. Its disappearance caused natural disasters that killed a bunch of people. IIRC, I want to say that Wanda died because she went out into the street to help a homeless woman and got hit by falling debris from a building collapse? Something like that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 10:28
|
|
|
Khizan posted:The moon wasn't directly murdering people. Its disappearance caused natural disasters that killed a bunch of people. IIRC, I want to say that Wanda died because she went out into the street to help a homeless woman and got hit by falling debris from a building collapse? Something like that. Yeah, she's portrayed positively and as a good person. It's more that weird Wiccan moon magic is portrayed as dumbly inherently cisnormative. After she dies her lovely family puts her deadname on her tombstone, which the main character then crosses out and writes her true name over.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 10:53
|
|
|
I'm genuinely curious how the Netlfix Sandman will do A Game of You.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 10:56
|
|
|
So to clarify, Neil Gaiman is not transphobic although clearly still had some learning to do when writing, but is Wicca-phobic? Possibly moon-phobic?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 11:04
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:So to clarify, Neil Gaiman is not transphobic although clearly still had some learning to do when writing, but is Wicca-phobic? Possibly moon-phobic? Well, if Bloodborne has taught me anything, the latter approach is a very valid way to live one's life.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 11:06
|
|
|
There are a lot of TERFy wiccans/'witches' so eh
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 11:12
|
|
|
Samovar posted:Well, if Bloodborne has taught me anything, the latter approach is a very valid way to live one's life. Moon's haunted.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 11:16
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:So to clarify, Neil Gaiman is not transphobic although clearly still had some learning to do when writing, but is Wicca-phobic? Possibly moon-phobic? He was writing a trans woman in a very popular comic book at a time when literally no one else would acknowledge they existed in popular media. People looking at it today could easily have problems with it, but you can't find a better contemporary example of trans women in comics because that literally doesn't exist.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 11:23
|
|
|
It's kinda weird but given the nature of the whole sequence it's entirely possible it's a result of the witch in question's personal prejudices and narrow-mindedness in application, especially given a big theme of the series is how magic and religion (p much the same thing) work in many contradictory ways mostly depending on how mortals believe in them.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 11:24
|
|
|
I think a lot of Neil Gaiman's writing is trying to include as many people as much as he can, and he doesn't always get it right, but he tries.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 11:28
|
|
|
Bismuth posted:There are a lot of TERFy wiccans/'witches' so eh I remember reading somewhere that he was referencing a particularly lovely strain of terfy wicca that was prominent at the time. I want to say it was based around a moon-related goddess like Selene or Artemis? Anyways, you were pretty clearly meant to understand that everybody saying that she wasn't a real woman was lovely and wrong.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 11:52
|
|
|
I love Neil Gaiman
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 11:53
|
|
|
Khizan posted:I remember reading somewhere that he was referencing a particularly lovely strain of terfy wicca that was prominent at the time. I want to say it was based around a moon-related goddess like Selene or Artemis? Dianic. ETA: Should specify that there are some inclusive Dianic covens, but the ones descended from and who follow Zsuzsanna Budapest's ideas are hideously transphobic. AngryRobotsInc has a new favorite as of 12:09 on Aug 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 12:03
|
|
|
AngryRobotsInc posted:Dianic. Yes, I think that whole storyline suffered from him trying to depict a particular strain of Wicca without being able to make it clear that this was one strand of a complicated tradition. idk, sometimes he bites off more than he can chew.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 14:39
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:I really don't understand the accusation of misogynoir, because I don't remember there ever being any black women in Shakespeare. Is it because there aren't any black women in Shakespeare? The 'dark lady' in Sonnets 127-152, presumably.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 14:58
|
|
|
Some more Tory poetry just dropped.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 14:59
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:I'm genuinely curious how the Netlfix Sandman will do A Game of You. They did a really great job in their depiction of Desire, so I would assume when they get to that story they'll handle it well. But this is Netflix we're talking about so the likelihood of them actually getting to that point in the story is probably minimal because they'll just cancel the series out of nowhere because its too expensive and they need to throw more money at Dave Chappelle or some other lovely comedian who hates trans folks.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 15:25
|
|
|
Angry Salami posted:The 'dark lady' in Sonnets 127-152, presumably. Which is also weird because the description he provided really sounds less like what we'd call a black person and more a lady who's fairly tan, maybe "kind of swarthy."
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 15:42
|
|
|
Baron von Eevl posted:Which is also weird because the description he provided really sounds less like what we'd call a black person and more a lady who's fairly tan, maybe "kind of swarthy."
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 16:13
|
|
|
The best shorthand I've heard is "beauty is the opposite of what poor people look like". So here in the US tan skin on white people means you have lots of leisure time to lounge around by the pool but in some countries it means you're out working in a field all day.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 16:20
|
|
|
I remember Shakespeare's characters will sometimes make remarks to the effect that dark-skinned Africans are ugly. For example, Claudio, the boring hero of Much Ado About Nothing, says that he will marry the woman he has promised to marry even "were she an Ethiope." Lysander calls Hermia "you Ethiope" in Midsummer Night's Dream to insult her. So that's probably where the misogynoir accusations come from. That's not great, but OTOH Willy Shakes died almost 400 years ago, so 
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 16:35
|
|
|
McCracAttack posted:The best shorthand I've heard is "beauty is the opposite of what poor people look like". So here in the US tan skin on white people means you have lots of leisure time to lounge around by the pool but in some countries it means you're out working in a field all day. And that switched around pretty quickly when the stereotype became the poor are pale from working in factories all day. Beauty standards are pretty hosed mind, see the Victorians thinking a young woman is most beautiful when clearly dying from untreated disease, and then in the 90s when beauty standards were based on literal heroin addicts.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 16:38
|
|
|
In GRRM’s defense it’s not necessarily racism that prevented him from learning the names of the people he’d be presenting. It’s equally likely he just procrastinated and never looked at the list until he was on stage. God know he wasn’t writing
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 17:21
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/AnthonyDaniels/...p-b2148036.html “I would like to offer a deep and sincere apology for a picture that temporarily appeared on this page last night. A google search picture of a GOP elephant was used and later found to have hidden images that do not represent the views or beliefs of the Lawrence County Republican Party.”
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 17:40
|
|
|
It reminds me of that news graphic that used a krispy kreme logo without noticing the motto was changed to "so good you'll suck dick" or the sign a protestor was carrying that had Osama bin Laden chilling with Bert from sesame street in a collage.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 17:46
|
|
|
Pththya-lyi posted:That's not great, but OTOH Willy Shakes died almost 400 years ago, so Right, if you're going to go after him, at least focus on "The Merchant of Venice" or "Taming of the Shrew".
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 17:49
|
|
|
Angry Salami posted:Right, if you're going to go after him, at least focus on "The Merchant of Venice" or "Taming of the Shrew". A little
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 17:54
|
|
|
TinTower posted:Some more Tory poetry just dropped. This is the same one as before sadly.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 17:55
|
|
|
Arivia posted:This is the same one as before sadly. Didn't that one have something about a smile?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 18:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 16:01 |
|
|
tight aspirations posted:Didn't that one have something about a smile? Yeah this is just like the last 2/3rds of the first one.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2022 18:12
|
|