[Feminism] can't tell a woman to make you a sandwich anymore because of "woke"

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Feminism] can't tell a woman to make you a sandwich anymore because of "woke"

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Shiroc: May 16, 2009; Sorry I'm late

https://twitter.com/emmyblotnick/status/652024875767324672?s=21&t=GWYHIvZRLvQdE6UUK1AXnQ

# ? Aug 23, 2022 05:28

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 18:10

Farm Frenzy: Jan 3, 2007

reading books is cool and will allow you to ascend beyond cspam threads where people just paraphrase three year old tweets at eachother forever

# ? Aug 23, 2022 05:32

tokin opposition: Apr 8, 2021; I don't jailbreak the androids, I set them free.

WATCH MARS EXPRESS (2023)

reading books is queer culture

# ? Aug 23, 2022 05:39

Riot Bimbo: Dec 28, 2006

my attention span is pretty annihilated but i try to labor through reading when appropriate. I've spent the last year rear end-deep in religious esoterica and feel a need to vary my intake a bit, and feminism feels more interesting than trying to read capital again

# ? Aug 23, 2022 06:27

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

StashAugustine posted:

I've read Caliban and it's cool and interesting but IIRC more about the early modern and the crushing of the limited independence women had in medieval agrarianism. In the question I had I'm more interested in early industrial wage labor- how involved women were in that and how it's remembered differently. I'm gonna put some money on "stay at home mothers were a brief petty bourg/labor aristocrat affectation" but I don't have anything to back that up

Pretty much everything about the nuclear family is cosplaying petty aristocrats/the middle class so that probably tracks.

# ? Aug 23, 2022 06:33

War and Pieces: Apr 24, 2022; DID NOT VOTE FOR FETTERMAN

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Pretty much everything about the nuclear family is cosplaying petty aristocrats/the middle class so that probably tracks.

Even amongst the middle class the ideal was that your daughter would work in the mills or work in education/medicine for a few years before marriage.

Obviously many of those women never did get married and some of those that did still worked

# ? Aug 23, 2022 06:56

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

War and Pieces posted:

this is autism erasure

That's the plan

# ? Aug 23, 2022 06:57

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

Brain Candy posted:

we got here exactly because capital was fine with detonating the patriarchy as it was if more surplus value could be squeezed out. talking about things in terms of personal virtue is almost always a shorthand for accepting capitalist realism

people need roles more than 'labor' or 'labor with the burden of social reproduction' or 'totally unaccountable lordling'. those edgelords are gusanos complaining about how castro stole their grandparent's farms, whining about how they should have a slave like grandpappy, but is this really surprising when we still allow for that third category, explicitly, as something to aspire to?

There's a reason rainbow capitalism always specifically latches onto the 'aspirational' brand of feminism, anti-racism etc; see also how a lot of liberal feminism comes down to 'now it's OUR turn to own slaves!' It hits a dead end pretty quick with lots of problems like incels it just doesn't have answers to except to use them as scapegoats because its refusal to openly acknowledge class-based power dynamics mean the only option dealing with men with actual power is immediate retreat.

There's definitely a vein of immature 'girls rule boys drool' feminism that it shouldn't be surprising has a pipeline to festering TERFism, especially with how much the ol' tumblr spaces were infested with abusers, predators, enablers and grifters.

# ? Aug 24, 2022 07:08

Shiroc: May 16, 2009; Sorry I'm late

Communism doesn�t really have an answer to incels either, other than the same �get your poo poo together and understand that nobody owes you sex.�

# ? Aug 24, 2022 07:53

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

I mean, reliable access to therapy and education and a feeling that society actually has a place for you can also help.

Like incels crystallised pretty much the same time as the alt-right in the general post-recession hangover of a generation of young white men who'd been promised the world on a silver platter, implicitly and often explicitly, suddenly realised they'd been sold a bad bill of goods, and looking for explanations in mostly the wrong places.

# ? Aug 24, 2022 09:35

unwantedplatypus: Sep 6, 2012

Actually people are just intrinsically bad or good, and trying to look for material explanations makes you bad for trying to make bad people good.

# ? Aug 24, 2022 13:00

Southpaugh: May 26, 2007; Smokey Bacon

Incels, shut-ins, hikikomori and other societal outliers are the result of the extreme atomisation of late capitalism. Combine that with the potential for personal radicalisation made available by the internet and its various subcultures its not surprising that we have people whose lives are lived vicariously.

Incels specifically I think are the result of not only a whole bunch of normal straight white dudes having the rug pulled out from under them economically in '08, but also societal expectations regarding wealth, looks etc.

These guys grew up with more or less the same expectations as their fathers, that wealth and ease would always be available to them. That it didn't really matter what you looked like, real men don't do x y or z or whatever. When actually all that stuff had quietly changed but these boys lagged behind on what exactly it is society expects from them.

I have a theory that the extreme militarism of American culture radicalised western masculinity into the insanely toxic death cult that we understand mainstream masculinity to be. Theres some kind of throughput from everyones dad/grandad ("righteously") being in the army in WW2/Korea/Vietnam (this being a popular perception put about by the media) and having this massively wealthy colonial power propping up their quality of life, to the continuing decline of living standards from the 70s and 80s until now. The narrative put forth by these boomer dads is that they worked hard and were rewarded for it, when the reality is the economics of their society afforded them a good quality of life. Your typical incel sees that they can't have/provide the way their fathers did, and it goes from there into blaming various aspects of society. Beauty standards, racism, women etc etc.

# ? Aug 24, 2022 15:27

One More Fat Nerd: Apr 13, 2007; Mama’s Lil’ Louie; Nap Ghost

Shiroc posted:

Communism doesn’t really have an answer to incels either, other than the same “get your poo poo together and understand that nobody owes you sex.”

Communism doesn't have answers for the specific grotesque complaints of the Incel movement, beyond "gulag". It definitely has answers for many of the root problems that have produced a bumper crop of "surplus sad loser dudes who could possibly become incels".

# ? Aug 24, 2022 16:32

Shiroc: May 16, 2009; Sorry I'm late

You can solve tons of material conditions, remove the atomization, reduce the numbers but you will still end up with people who want sex/relationships/whatever with people who aren�t interested in reciprocating. If people have agency, some number of people will still fall through cracks and not feel like they�re getting the relationships they feel like they deserve.

# ? Aug 24, 2022 17:10

War and Pieces: Apr 24, 2022; DID NOT VOTE FOR FETTERMAN

Shiroc posted:

Communism doesn�t really have an answer to incels either, other than the same �get your poo poo together and understand that nobody owes you sex.�

Communism has a job and a house for them

# ? Aug 24, 2022 17:59

Brain Candy: May 18, 2006

Shiroc posted:

You can solve tons of material conditions, remove the atomization, reduce the numbers but you will still end up with people who want sex/relationships/whatever with people who aren�t interested in reciprocating. If people have agency, some number of people will still fall through cracks and not feel like they�re getting the relationships they feel like they deserve.

yes, and?

this is the lib objection to any change, that it won�t fix everything

# ? Aug 24, 2022 18:34

unwantedplatypus: Sep 6, 2012

Shiroc posted:

You can solve tons of material conditions, remove the atomization, reduce the numbers but you will still end up with people who want sex/relationships/whatever with people who aren�t interested in reciprocating. If people have agency, some number of people will still fall through cracks and not feel like they�re getting the relationships they feel like they deserve.

Okay well what if we tried to reduce the numbers with the knowledge that we can�t eliminate them entirely.

Unless you�re claiming nothing can be done, which is radlib poo poo

# ? Aug 24, 2022 18:40

Shiroc: May 16, 2009; Sorry I'm late

I was specifically responding to these that implied incels were purely the invention of capitalist alienation that would be fully answered by communism:

Ghost Leviathan posted:

There's a reason rainbow capitalism always specifically latches onto the 'aspirational' brand of feminism, anti-racism etc; see also how a lot of liberal feminism comes down to 'now it's OUR turn to own slaves!' It hits a dead end pretty quick with lots of problems like incels it just doesn't have answers to except to use them as scapegoats because its refusal to op

Southpaugh posted:

Incels, shut-ins, hikikomori and other societal outliers are the result of the extreme atomisation of late capitalism. Combine that with the potential for personal radicalisation made available by the internet and its various subcultures its not surprising that we have people whose lives are lived vicariously.

Incels specifically I think are the result of not only a whole bunch of normal straight white dudes having the rug pulled out from under them economically in '08, but also societal expectations regarding wealth, looks etc.

War and Pieces posted:

Communism has a job and a house for them

# ? Aug 24, 2022 19:09

damn horror queefs: Oct 14, 2005; say hello
say hello to the man in the elevator

Communism won't fix people being assholes. It will only take away their excuses as to why they are assholes.

# ? Aug 24, 2022 19:11

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

it rules that liberals think us tankies are the doomers when the philosophical construct they live their lives around assumes that most people are irredeemable shitheads

# ? Aug 24, 2022 19:13

Mr. Lobe: Feb 23, 2007; ... Dry bones...

Communism will require a serious change in the consciousness of people, and part of that will mean a need to deprogram a lot of the patriarchal assumptions that shape an incel. That will be a long process, and maybe it'll never be complete, but right now we live in a social order that reinforces the ideas that make an incel. That is a problem that will never be solved under that regime we call capitalism.

# ? Aug 24, 2022 19:16

Mr. Lobe: Feb 23, 2007; ... Dry bones...

Some Guy TT posted:

it rules that liberals think us tankies are the doomers when the philosophical construct they live their lives around assumes that most people are irredeemable shitheads

I'd say one of the core tenets of a communist should be the belief that people are generally capable of changing, in consciousness and character. It's certainly a core Marxist tenet. If you don't believe that, I don't know how you could believe the project of communism, or indeed any social change for the better, is possible.

# ? Aug 24, 2022 19:18

skooma512: Feb 8, 2012; You couldn't grok my race car, but you dug the roadside blur.

Perhaps a more collectively oriented society would create less incels than an individualistic one?

Speaking as someone who teetered on the edge of that kind of thing in the late-00s, I bet I would have had fewer problems and stayed out of the pipeline altogether if I had had more positive social interactions with people, women or otherwise. It turns out I had undiagnosed/treated ADD in school, so that didn't help matters. My life consisted of go to school and go home, there was no community I felt like I could plug into, and my school friends evaporated when the bell rang, into college this continued despite deliberate effort to turn it around. I joined clubs and put myself out there and ended up with little to show for it. I would spend the entire summer from 6th grade to 10th grade holed up in my room, I wasn't forbidden from leaving, but there was no where to go and no one to visit. Isolation bred more isolation and isolation + internet connection isn't a mix known for producing healthy mental outlooks on life and people. If I was having to interact with lots of people all the time just by living, because people aren't shut inside of cars when they're not shut inside their houses and fearing anyone they don't personally know, maybe I wouldn't have been so socially stunted by the time I hit puberty and wanted to date.

One More Fat Nerd posted:

Communism doesn't have answers for the specific grotesque complaints of the Incel movement, beyond "gulag". It definitely has answers for many of the root problems that have produced a bumper crop of "surplus sad loser dudes who could possibly become incels".

So in short I agree with this.

# ? Aug 24, 2022 20:21

Neon Noodle: Nov 11, 2016; there's nothing wrong here in montana

Communism wouldn't obviate the need for feminism :psyduck:

# ? Aug 24, 2022 21:32

unwantedplatypus: Sep 6, 2012

Neon Noodle posted:

Communism wouldn't obviate the need for feminism

Wow, that would be super duper hosed up if someone said that. Could you quote the post that's saying that?

# ? Aug 24, 2022 22:35

Brain Candy: May 18, 2006

what's even more bizarre to me is that is the history of ignoring the universal in feminism is littered with gross FYGM. it's how you get second wave feminists going whoops all TERFS

where intersectionality came from posted:

Above all else, Our politics initially sprang from the shared belief that Black women are inherently valuable, that our liberation is a necessity not as an adjunct to somebody else's may because of our need as human persons for autonomy. This may seem so obvious as to sound simplistic, but it is apparent that no other ostensibly progressive movement has ever considered our specific oppression as a priority or worked seriously for the ending of that oppression. Merely naming the pejorative stereotypes attributed to Black women (e.g. mammy, matriarch, Sapphire, whore, bulldagger), let alone cataloguing the cruel, often murderous, treatment we receive, Indicates how little value has been placed upon our lives during four centuries of bondage in the Western hemisphere. We realize that the only people who care enough about us to work consistently for our liberation are us. Our politics evolve from a healthy love for ourselves, our sisters and our community which allows us to continue our struggle and work.

This focusing upon our own oppression is embodied in the concept of identity politics. We believe that the most profound and potentially most radical politics come directly out of our own identity, as opposed to working to end somebody else's oppression. In the case of Black women this is a particularly repugnant, dangerous, threatening, and therefore revolutionary concept because it is obvious from looking at all the political movements that have preceded us that anyone is more worthy of liberation than ourselves. We reject pedestals, queenhood, and walking ten paces behind. To be recognized as human, levelly human, is enough.

We believe that sexual politics under patriarchy is as pervasive in Black women's lives as are the politics of class and race. We also often find it difficult to separate race from class from sex oppression because in our lives they are most often experienced simultaneously. We know that there is such a thing as racial-sexual oppression which is neither solely racial nor solely sexual, e.g., the history of rape of Black women by white men as a weapon of political repression.

Although we are feminists and Lesbians, we feel solidarity with progressive Black men and do not advocate the fractionalization that white women who are separatists demand. Our situation as Black people necessitates that we have solidarity around the fact of race, which white women of course do not need to have with white men, unless it is their negative solidarity as racial oppressors. We struggle together with Black men against racism, while we also struggle with Black men about sexism.

We realize that the liberation of all oppressed peoples necessitates the destruction of the political-economic systems of capitalism and imperialism as well as patriarchy. We are socialists because we believe that work must be organized for the collective benefit of those who do the work and create the products, and not for the profit of the bosses. Material resources must be equally distributed among those who create these resources. We are not convinced, however, that a socialist revolution that is not also a feminist and anti-racist revolution will guarantee our liberation. We have arrived at the necessity for developing an understanding of class relationships that takes into account the specific class position of Black women who are generally marginal in the labor force, while at this particular time some of us are temporarily viewed as doubly desirable tokens at white-collar and professional levels. We need to articulate the real class situation of persons who are not merely raceless, sexless workers, but for whom racial and sexual oppression are significant determinants in their working/economic lives. Although we are in essential agreement with Marx's theory as it applied to the very specific economic relationships he analyzed, we know that his analysis must be extended further in order for us to understand our specific economic situation as Black women.

A political contribution which we feel we have already made is the expansion of the feminist principle that the personal is political. In our consciousness-raising sessions, for example, we have in many ways gone beyond white women's revelations because we are dealing with the implications of race and class as well as sex. Even our Black women's style of talking/testifying in Black language about what we have experienced has a resonance that is both cultural and political. We have spent a great deal of energy delving into the cultural and experiential nature of our oppression out of necessity because none of these matters has ever been looked at before. No one before has ever examined the multilayered texture of Black women's lives. An example of this kind of revelation/conceptualization occurred at a meeting as we discussed the ways in which our early intellectual interests had been attacked by our peers, particularly Black males. We discovered that all of us, because we were "smart" had also been considered "ugly," i.e., "smart-ugly." "Smart-ugly" crystallized the way in which most of us had been forced to develop our intellects at great cost to our "social" lives. The sanctions In the Black and white communities against Black women thinkers is comparatively much higher than for white women, particularly ones from the educated middle and upper classes.

As we have already stated, we reject the stance of Lesbian separatism because it is not a viable political analysis or strategy for us. It leaves out far too much and far too many people, particularly Black men, women, and children. We have a great deal of criticism and loathing for what men have been socialized to be in this society: what they support, how they act, and how they oppress. But we do not have the misguided notion that it is their maleness, per se�i.e., their biological maleness�that makes them what they are. As BIack women we find any type of biological determinism a particularly dangerous and reactionary basis upon which to build a politic. We must also question whether Lesbian separatism is an adequate and progressive political analysis and strategy, even for those who practice it, since it so completely denies any but the sexual sources of women's oppression, negating the facts of class and race.

# ? Aug 25, 2022 00:23

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

The biggest issue with second wave feminism is that being like "the problem is that men are dog poo poo" is all well and good but it doesn't deal at all with the fact that so are most women. not me though, I'm great

# ? Aug 25, 2022 00:30

tokin opposition: Apr 8, 2021; I don't jailbreak the androids, I set them free.

WATCH MARS EXPRESS (2023)

some plague rats posted:

The biggest issue with second wave feminism is that being like "the problem is that men are dog poo poo" is all well and good but it doesn't deal at all with the fact that so are most women. not me though, I'm great

Only enbies are without sin

(Not an enby just horny for one)

# ? Aug 25, 2022 01:14

tokin opposition: Apr 8, 2021; I don't jailbreak the androids, I set them free.

WATCH MARS EXPRESS (2023)

Also Communism would obviate the need for feminism

# ? Aug 25, 2022 01:15

Brain Candy: May 18, 2006

i disagree, feminism is required for communism; the goal is universal human liberation. this the paradox, only by grounding your personal idea of the struggle in the universal do you arrive at the correct framing:

quote:

To be recognized as human, levelly human, is enough.

the goal is that everyone's life has meaning, matters. this makes it easy to join in other struggles. to care about people in particular, even when your goals are broad and sweeping. and when it succeeds it means everyone has an interest in people being valued, because if people didn't matter maybe you don't matter either

or so it was successfully argued in cuba:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_National_Center_for_Sex_Education posted:

State-funded sexual reassignment

The center pushed for passage of a law that would provide transgender persons with free sex reassignment surgery and hormone replacement therapy in addition to granting them new legal identification documents with their changed gender. A draft bill was presented to the Cuban parliament in 2005. Prior to being approved, it was suggested that the bill would make Cuba the most progressive nation in Latin America on gender issues.[3] The measure passed in June 2008.[4][5]

# ? Aug 25, 2022 01:36

F Stop Fitzgerald: Dec 12, 2010

tokin opposition posted:

Only enbies are without sin

(Not an enby just horny for one)

being annoying is a kind of sin

# ? Aug 25, 2022 02:18

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

when you get to heaven there's a big sign over the gate that says No Whining so all enbies get sent immediately to hell

# ? Aug 25, 2022 02:22

some plague rats: Jun 5, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

I'm going to get a big laser and carve on the moon Calling Yourself A Bottom Is Not A Personality

# ? Aug 25, 2022 02:23

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

enbies actually go to limbo like unbaptized infants

# ? Aug 25, 2022 02:36

Brain Candy: May 18, 2006

some plague rats posted:

when you get to heaven there's a big sign over the gate that says No Whining so all enbies get sent immediately to hell

lol at you idiots that think you have to stay in hell or heaven. so weird

'guh, i have to stay in my assigned place forever, some dipshit in toga said so' that's you

# ? Aug 25, 2022 02:47

tokin opposition: Apr 8, 2021; I don't jailbreak the androids, I set them free.

WATCH MARS EXPRESS (2023)

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

being annoying is a kind of sin

Say 30 hail satans and I will forgive your sin

# ? Aug 25, 2022 03:01

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

Some Guy TT posted:

it rules that liberals think us tankies are the doomers when the philosophical construct they live their lives around assumes that most people are irredeemable shitheads

You talk to a liberal long enough in the right way and they'll basically admit that they believe that it's completely impossible to solve any of the problems they complain the most about, and get real mad when you point it out

Or come down to basically refusing to accept any solution that doesn't involve totally owning and punishing all of the people they don't like. Probably don't want to know what happens when you point out this makes them indistinguishable from a fascist.

Ghost Leviathan has issued a correction as of 09:48 on Aug 25, 2022

# ? Aug 25, 2022 06:02

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

ive been reading the case against the sexual revolution by the woman discussed in the tweet that promoted pages of discussion and its pretty interesting i just read a chapter that argued the only thing mainstream bdsm acceptance has accomplished is make it much easier for abusive men to maim rape or even murder women and claim as a defense that they were engaging in consensual sex acts

# ? Aug 27, 2022 03:20

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/nytimes/status/1563175726467416064

# ? Aug 28, 2022 17:00

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 18:10

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

Riot Bimbo posted:

Where's a good place to start with trans inclusive feminism? I am kinda mentally destitute when it comes to feminist theory. I've picked up some stuff through osmosis in some social circles up here + online communities and video essays from people I don't really trust on the subject, so just kinda not good. I'd like a decent foundation if an entry point can be recommended.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4006089

# ? Aug 28, 2022 17:31

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Feminism] can't tell a woman to make you a sandwich anymore because of "woke"

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