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It's good they have so many people working on multiplayer because I've basically had the sense ever since it was mentioned that they want it to be "perfect" and a lot of people don't need it to be perfect - they just want to play with their friends. A lot of the reason I haven't pushed LE with my own circle of friends is it's "just" a single player game right now, and once they actually do have multiplayer available for everyone I think the game is going to take off like a rocket.
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Aug 1, 2022 03:33
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Nephrite posted:It's good they have so many people working on multiplayer because I've basically had the sense ever since it was mentioned that they want it to be "perfect" and a lot of people don't need it to be perfect - they just want to play with their friends. A lot of the reason I haven't pushed LE with my own circle of friends is it's "just" a single player game right now, and once they actually do have multiplayer available for everyone I think the game is going to take off like a rocket. I want it to be perfect and I'm willing to wait. MP didn't work at all when Wolcen came out and it was a huge bummer. I don't know if it even works these days but I assume at this point there's hardly anyone to play with. LE can avoid some flak if their MP doesn't launch perfectly since you can at least play offline but it would still turn a lot of people off if they want to play MP, they are told they can play MP, and they actually can't play MP.
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Aug 1, 2022 03:37
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I’m definitely waiting for LE multiplayer to come out because I have friends who like action RPGs but would definitely bounce off of PoE
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Aug 1, 2022 03:40
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Nephrite posted:It's good they have so many people working on multiplayer because I've basically had the sense ever since it was mentioned that they want it to be "perfect" and a lot of people don't need it to be perfect - they just want to play with their friends. A lot of the reason I haven't pushed LE with my own circle of friends is it's "just" a single player game right now, and once they actually do have multiplayer available for everyone I think the game is going to take off like a rocket. Speaking not as an EHG employee but as someone with 19 years of gamedev experience and who's held a lead position in a NCSoft MMO, and I rarely like to open sentences with "as a", but I feel like I need to qualify it to make this clear from extreme real world experience: If a multiplayer release is ever so slightly botched, it can be a death sentence. Most multiplayer experiences that are "perfect" are just what you'd expect and call baseline from successful games and therein lies the issue, being perfect means you not noticing anything wrong. Multiplayer experiences that don't take into account multiplayer needs seriously will vary in really sinking a game's health, and anything between New World having bugs that allow you to inject code to just not accurately predicting and having servers ready for the multiplayer release (which is something that players underestimate how hard it is to do, and why even the biggest companies regularly fail at doing). There are not dozens, not hundreds, but thousands of multiplayer bugs that will occur naturally from a coder's lack of experience in designing netcode. This is similar in nature to writing a game's inventory, but much bigger in scale - ever wondered why so many games have dupes? Or why Wolcen had 3 different inventory dupes? Inventory dupes are a natural consequence of an inexperienced coder writing an inventory, something that seems incredibly easy at first glance - and then missing some interactions between common UI functionality and methodology and code to arrange and sort items in a grid. Moreover, it seems painfully simple to do and over time you keep wondering how games like Diablo 1 had their inventory dupe as a programmer oversight, but in this case even with hindsight being 20/20 if you fall into certain traps you're still going to write an inventory that's a complete mess and have to learn from experience why a task so trivial can result in so many ways to dupe items in so many games over so many decades. Netcode is far, far, far more complicated than that, and can result in far worse exploits that can completely destroy a game either by accident or malice from actors DDOsing or exploiting bugs. It's also something that involves every aspect of the game's code - for example, while designing my culling system for the game, before it happened we knew it had to be redesigned to not run in a server. This was understood by me, my lead, the netcode engineers, thanks to us being very thorough and so there were multiple layers to catch that, since that oversight would have been caught by at least 4 different people before even running into QA, which would find it before then the internal multiplayer testers found it. This is good, because you need a lot of layers of people with experience catching this sort of stuff: If I had only ever coded for single player games in my life, odds are that I would not have thought in the first place of coding everything I do taking in consideration whether it's server side or client side, or whether it requires a call from the server. The architecture of a multiplayer game and a singleplayer game are so intensely different that it's hard to put into words how someone's experience as a game developer can be severely cut down once multiplayer is involved, because suddenly all the gamedev architecture you've known and shipped in games are no longer valid, and all the client side things you code are now instead calls to a server. And then there's knowing that, and knowing, in the game you're working for, what exactly is designed by intent to be authoritative; what does the game allow for you to do client side, what is required server side, and so on. Very recently Path of Exile had something that was intended to require a server call be revealed to the public because the UI had its entire code built in it to show client-side instantly and that allowed people to reverse engineer it. As I said before, I'm not involved in the coding of LE's multiplayer (although I've been jokingly told that if I talked more about netcoding and hack prevention my manager would send me to the netcode department), but I can tell you that there's no such thing as half-assing multiplayer in a game like this and then expecting people to be happy. We are making sure that people can do just that - play with their friends. The minimum viable product for that, however, is not trivial, and I'm really glad EHG is aware of this and is being responsible with regards to the MP implementation and testing it so thoroughly, because even the most extensively tested AAA games still come out with a lot of bugs and issues that require urgent fixing; rushing multiplayer on the other hand is essentially a guarantee that there'll be no positive experiences involved in the process, or bugs that completely disqualify a game from being taking seriously at all. For a quick example, take a look at how Warcraft 3 Reforged - which was basically a reskin of an existing game and should be easy to deal with the netcode, right? - was embarrassing itself with multiple disconnects during the DreamHack Warcraft 3 Open Anaheim 2020. We are aware of how multiplayer is important we are taking it very seriously, because we know what a botched multiplayer release can do to a game and we'd rather do it right. I don't remember whose quote was it about how a good release might take 3-4 years and then it will be out and good, whereas a bad release is a stain in the game forever. And there are so many ways netcode can be a pitfall that I'm glad we're taking the rather safe than sorry approach. Elentor fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Aug 1, 2022 |
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Aug 1, 2022 05:01
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Maybe I'm the weirdo, but I don't really care about MP much. I play poe 99% as a single player game with a goon chat box. Only ever group up to get/share a recipe or achievement or something of that nature, and I don't think LE has any needs like that, at least yet. The only other time is for trading, and I infinitely prefer arpgs that just have good items, loot, and crafting so that I don't feel like I need trading. Not saying it shouldn't have MP or anything, but beyond not having a guild chat box, just not a big thing to me. I'd have infinitely preferred a procedural map system. The static layouts really make me bored earlier than it should, and it still surprises me with how much they get right, that they didn't do this.
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Aug 1, 2022 05:48
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xZAOx posted:I'd have infinitely preferred a procedural map system. I want to write this as L-System Trees are one of my specializations, but "I want to write this" is a trait shared by many people in the project so if this ever happens it will probably not be done by me, sadly, but the interest in doing it is certainly there, overly so.
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Aug 1, 2022 05:52
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quote:and who's held a lead position in a NCSoft MMO Hm? What was this?
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Aug 1, 2022 14:47
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Bloodly posted:Hm? What was this? One of the many projects that they shut down prematurely because the netcode wasn't functional and I was a Techart lead so I could only see things happening without much say in it. As I said, you can't half-rear end this kind of stuff or it just leads to everything crumbling. In retrospect, it was not as bad as New World seems to be, but there was a period of time where working on MMOs published or developed by certain major companies was a die roll as to whether they'd succeed or not because the only programmers with experience available were the ones who had worked on really big projects and recently quit. One ex-WoW netcode programmer with a lot of experience isn't enough to carry a game's netcode if the client's programmers do not know to handle rewriting the code, because their 4-5 years of experience does not include client-server handling in the logic. During that time I've worked for and seen a few games that had very big names in it all collapsing under that exact structural weakspot. This particular case was egregious at the time because early in my career I worked on free projects like Planeshift, games out of volunteer teams that are still going today at a glacial place but had enough years of just persisting that they got network features right, whereas during the WoW gold rush a lot of well-funded games simply collapsed under the weight of not having a good network team. Nowadays we only hear about the ones that are too big to fail and still blow up. On the other hand of the spectrum some solo projects (some goon solo projects even) by virtue of being made by a netcoder essentially work as fully fledged MMO prototypes but those are incredible exceptions; a lot of games from there to then break due to multiplayer implementation, especially when it comes down to MMOs and, while we're not an MMO, I like that our leads are well aware of the history of this kind of development. Elentor fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Aug 1, 2022 |
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Aug 1, 2022 16:53
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Are there any plans for support-type builds (healer, buffer, debuffer, idk some other party utility) for multiplayer? My girlfriend basically only plays those types of builds in rpgs
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Aug 6, 2022 16:44
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Xun posted:Are there any plans for support-type builds (healer, buffer, debuffer, idk some other party utility) for multiplayer? My girlfriend basically only plays those types of builds in rpgs Would someone whose active skills revolve around buffing or debuffing for their wolves/bears/skeletons count?
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Aug 6, 2022 17:00
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KPC_Mammon posted:Would someone whose active skills revolve around buffing or debuffing for their wolves/bears/skeletons count? Hmm I've almost talked her into trying a minions build before in PoE so it might. What are those builds?
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Aug 6, 2022 17:05
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Xun posted:Hmm I've almost talked her into trying a minions build before in PoE so it might. What are those builds? Primalist and Acolyte both get minions within minutes of starting a character. Acolyte can supplement them with curses and has minion targeting buffs that can eventually help other players. Primalist has a ranged heal that supercharges minions and a warcry that can stun / disable enemies.
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Aug 6, 2022 17:18
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There are tons of support related abilities or nodes in skills across the classes. Paladin alone should be extremely good as a support tank with what’s in the game now, though it would be a waste to not do some damage, too. I don’t know what things will shake out to be like in multiplayer, but the current design of skills absolutely suggests that it will be possible to play a dedicated support character.
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Aug 6, 2022 17:51
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I haven't tried the Primalist builds that are pet focused, but needing to stand next to them to Resurrect your pet is a huge pain in the rear end. But I have a talent that gives me a good damage boost while I have only 1 pet so I do it. The Acolyte one seems the much better pick for a "real" pet build. And yea I feel like most classes have a handful of Support abilities that buff other players. I always like Support / Healer roles but they never feel good in ARPGs. Will be curious to see how they feel in MP here once it finally gets added. Sab669 fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Aug 6, 2022 |
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Aug 6, 2022 18:03
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I wish Last Epoch would add around ~30% extra speed to builds, especially during the campaign, or an additional skill slot for an extra movement skill. The core gameplay loop isn't bad, but the minimum speed I want to play an ARPG at is PoE speed. Leveled a few characters into the 90s, these are my thoughts. Pros: -Cool build possibilities -Monolith pick your own reward style end game is a great idea -Legendary Potential is a great system for gambling end game items. LP3+ items are really strong. -Deaths feel pretty fair -Easy to respecialize and try out new skill pairings -Idols are great Cons: -Slow gameplay, long cooldowns on a lot of skills -No aspirational content yet, no league mechanics -Overall, builds are more limited and power capped than in other ARPGs. A lot of the power is on the skills themselves and less so on most items. It feels stronger to invest in defenses most of the time to become nigh invulnerable, which also slows down gameplay even more. -Second half of the campaign is a slog. The lvl requirements on crafting put a pretty hard cap on how OP you can be until the 70s-80s. -Having to reclear monoliths on every character is dumb as gently caress -Stash management is pretty mediocre. Difficult to organize items effectively when playing more than 2-3 characters Playing Last Epoch makes me recognize that PoE does really have a ton of quality of life things that make the game more enjoyable. That said, pressing one button to send all my crafting items to stash from anywhere is unbelievably appreciated.
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Aug 6, 2022 18:23
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Sab669 posted:I haven't tried the Primalist builds that are pet focused, but needing to stand next to them to Resurrect your pet is a huge pain in the rear end. But I have a talent that gives me a good damage boost while I have only 1 pet so I do it. Primalist pet builds encourage you hitting things alongside your companions, or at least that's the feel I got. Swipe in particular is well suited for supporting allies by hitting your enemies. Benson Cunningham posted:I wish Last Epoch would add around ~30% extra speed to builds, especially during the campaign, or an additional skill slot for an extra movement skill. The core gameplay loop isn't bad, but the minimum speed I want to play an ARPG at is PoE speed. I specced into Fury Leap in my beastmaster just for the cooldown reduction, I know its not the ideal but I am still level 70something and grinding sporadically for the squirrels helmet. But yeah, agreed on things and Monoliths are great, even at a glance
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Aug 6, 2022 20:01
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Yea but it's just dumb that like oh my bear got crushed by a boss, let me try to hug its corpse while dodging AoEs to res it
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Aug 6, 2022 21:05
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Benson Cunningham posted:I wish Last Epoch would add around ~30% extra speed to builds, especially during the campaign, or an additional skill slot for an extra movement skill. The core gameplay loop isn't bad, but the minimum speed I want to play an ARPG at is PoE speed. The problem with this is I think POE at the endgame is way too fast, there's a reason the combat in POE is a shitshow where you don't really fight anything because if it lives longer than 5 seconds you might just randomly explode. So while yea the early game in LE could maybe be a bit faster, you have to be careful with speed scaling.
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Aug 6, 2022 21:58
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Cinara posted:The problem with this is I think POE at the endgame is way too fast, there's a reason the combat in POE is a shitshow where you don't really fight anything because if it lives longer than 5 seconds you might just randomly explode. So while yea the early game in LE could maybe be a bit faster, you have to be careful with speed scaling. I play ARPGS to go fast. There is literally no upper limit on how fast I want it to be. Paradoxica / Shaco flicker strike is my happy place.
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Aug 6, 2022 22:46
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Xun posted:Are there any plans for support-type builds (healer, buffer, debuffer, idk some other party utility) for multiplayer? My girlfriend basically only plays those types of builds in rpgs I'm not sure, most of the team is focused on Multiplayer but I have so much work to do elsewhere that I don't interact much with design. One of the unique items I suggested that might pass was openly targeting multiplayer support (that I really enjoy playing) so there definitely doesn't seem to be anything opposing that, but I do think that the idea is for the synergies to emerge dynamically rather than forced like D3. This is honestly my opinion and absolutely not representative of jack poo poo because I am not in the loop, I just now my mp support unique was well received by designers.
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Aug 6, 2022 23:46
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The "losing dungeon keys when you enter the dungeon instead of when you beat the boss" decision was so bad it pretty much put me off the game permanently. If that's ever fixed, please let me know and I'll probably play again, but after 4 runs of getting one-shot by one of the Dungeon bosses (even with good resistances) and losing not only the time to run the dungeon, but the time to farm the key, I was tapped out.
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Aug 7, 2022 00:24
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The "losing dungeon keys when you enter the dungeon instead of when you beat the boss" decision was so bad it pretty much put me off the game permanently. You're going to be waiting a long time on that one.
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Aug 7, 2022 00:26
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Well then I had my fun with it.
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Aug 7, 2022 00:27
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Cinara posted:The problem with this is I think POE at the endgame is way too fast, there's a reason the combat in POE is a shitshow where you don't really fight anything because if it lives longer than 5 seconds you might just randomly explode. So while yea the early game in LE could maybe be a bit faster, you have to be careful with speed scaling. On one hand I'm pretty sure that avoiding POE's speed meta is an explicit design goal. edit: yeah, this is what I remembered reading: quote:Faster clear speed is often what players in these types of games strive for - I don't see that being any different in Last Epoch. If we see a skill that can go from screen to screen in a split second destroying everything in an area that is supposed to be challenging it's safe to assume that we'll combat that build in some way. On the other hand, I suspect PoE wanted to avoid this themselves at the beginning, so who knows? Really as long as it stays in that niche between base Grim Dawn and current PoE I'll be happy Dallan Invictus fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Aug 7, 2022 |
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Aug 7, 2022 00:53
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Don't tell that dude about VK Autobomber.
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Aug 7, 2022 00:59
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Hit level 80 today, first time playing. I spent an embarrassing amount of time trying to figure out where I needed to pay real money to get a second stash tab. Queue my suprise I could just buy more with my hoard of gold. I vendored so many uniques trying to play with one tab. Games pretty fun, enjoying the timeline business. My void knight warpath character seems.....fine. not sure how fast I should be cruising through these timeline levels. What zone do I go to, to make legendary items? What should I be doing with my time now that I'm level 80ish. focusing on bringing my corruption up to 50 in a single timeline, or focusing on completing all of the different timelines to empower all of them?
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Aug 31, 2022 03:49
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You need Temporal Sanctum keys to get into the dungeon that lets you upgrade uniques into legendaries. The Sanctum is off to the east of the Ruined Coast, iirc. The keys drop pretty rarely in the endgame (too rarely IMO), and depending on the level of the base unique, you may need to run one of the higher-level versions of the dungeon, which are unlocked by running the lower-level versions, so you may need more than one key. Completing the story for each timeline gives you a passive that can be pretty impactful, so it's worth doing finishing all of them once (or more than once if all the options you're given are duds). I think the only reason to stick to one zone early on is if it has a better chance of dropping a unique you really want. As for speed of clearing levels, the game is kinda slow (and that's intentional, according to the devs). As long as you have a bit of movespeed and are using your class's movement skill, there's not much you can do to go faster.
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Aug 31, 2022 06:02
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Noper Q posted:You need Temporal Sanctum keys to get into the dungeon that lets you upgrade uniques into legendaries. The Sanctum is off to the east of the Ruined Coast, iirc. The keys drop pretty rarely in the endgame (too rarely IMO), and depending on the level of the base unique, you may need to run one of the higher-level versions of the dungeon, which are unlocked by running the lower-level versions, so you may need more than one key. I'm trying to get an apathy's maw to drop. From what I understand I need at least 50 corruption in any of the zones for it to even be in the drop table I think I spent 2h getting the corruption from 0 to 33ish on the stolen lance timeline. Is there an ideal way to push corruption up or do I just do it 8 to 12 points at a time.
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Aug 31, 2022 06:23
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corruption is much harder to rack up without empowered monoliths, at the 80-90 range the goal is to mostly finish all your quest echoes and work up to spirits of fire, the last ruin and age of winter; once you close those out you'll be able to empower all the monoliths and you'll start with 100 corruption with no maximum cap
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Aug 31, 2022 06:35
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So my friends have been saying patch 0.9 will release at the end of September but I cannot find that anywhere online. Was that something they changed their minds on or are my friends about to be very sad?
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Sep 1, 2022 04:49
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Hey took another shot at this and it's going pretty well, got up to early 70s with a swipe/earthquake beastmaster. At this point should I be just pushing for unlocking all the timeliness ASAP? Do have the first 3 done. The build feels pretty good but my gear is kinda mediocre overall- less than 2k life and resists are a bit of a mess. Been doing a bit of crafting but it seems hard to get something with even 3 good affixes with the forging potential on stuff that drops rn
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Sep 1, 2022 06:41
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Murder Noveau posted:So my friends have been saying patch 0.9 will release at the end of September but I cannot find that anywhere online. Was that something they changed their minds on or are my friends about to be very sad? Its been mentioned in the game's discord and I think also in a stream that one of the developer does. vvvvv this is accurate, forgot about the change MrMidnight fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Sep 1, 2022 |
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Sep 1, 2022 07:08
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Murder Noveau posted:So my friends have been saying patch 0.9 will release at the end of September but I cannot find that anywhere online. Was that something they changed their minds on or are my friends about to be very sad? That was the original scheduled release time, but it was delayed till “later this year”. The scope of 0.9 expanded to include the full, open multiplayer beta, which is why it’s release has been delayed. As far as I know, no specifics have been shared on the actual release time of the patch.
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Sep 1, 2022 10:07
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Heithinn Grasida posted:That was the original scheduled release time, but it was delayed till “later this year”. The scope of 0.9 expanded to include the full, open multiplayer beta, which is why it’s release has been delayed. As far as I know, no specifics have been shared on the actual release time of the patch. drat, thank you for the confirmation though!
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Sep 1, 2022 16:49
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StashAugustine posted:Hey took another shot at this and it's going pretty well, got up to early 70s with a swipe/earthquake beastmaster. At this point should I be just pushing for unlocking all the timeliness ASAP? Do have the first 3 done. The build feels pretty good but my gear is kinda mediocre overall- less than 2k life and resists are a bit of a mess. Been doing a bit of crafting but it seems hard to get something with even 3 good affixes with the forging potential on stuff that drops rn As long as you feel like you're clearing and boss-killing at a reasonable pace and not dying constantly, you might as well continue unlocking timelines. It's a long enough process that you'll have plenty of opportunities to improve your gear as you go. As for resists, it's a good idea to get the capped, but it's not absolutely vital the way it is in other games, since monsters automatically get penetration based on zone level. And some of the timeline blessings include resists, so you can potentially solve this by progressing.
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Sep 1, 2022 18:13
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Noper Q posted:As long as you feel like you're clearing and boss-killing at a reasonable pace and not dying constantly, you might as well continue unlocking timelines. It's a long enough process that you'll have plenty of opportunities to improve your gear as you go. Does overcappping help against penetration?
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Sep 1, 2022 18:59
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Overcapping helps against shred (which is pretty rare in my experience except for poison because of the weird way poison shred works) and the direct lightning res penalty from shock stacks, but not penetration. I think penetration is capped at 75% anyway though? At least I can't remember offhand any sources of monster res penetration besides the zone level (so basically the difficulty/campaign based res penalty from other games).
Dallan Invictus fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Sep 1, 2022 |
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Sep 1, 2022 19:09
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From the game guide (which is very good and is something more games like this should have and is even viewable offline): Combat Mechanics → Penetrations Penetration subtracts from resistances, causing a source of damage to deal more damage. Penetration applies after resistances are capped to 75%, and can reduce resistances to negative values. For example, 30% lightning penetration against 20% lightning resistance will result in -10% lightning resistance. All enemies gain 1% of penetration per area level, up to a maximum of 75%. Players with less than 75% of each resistance at area level 75 and beyond will take increased damage due to having negative resistance values.
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Sep 1, 2022 19:49
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Huh, so in other games not having any resistances means x4 damage but here is it only a 75% increase at level 75? That isn't too bad.
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Sep 1, 2022 19:53
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Exactly! It means that resists are still a good defense, but being a little short of the resist cap is a lot less impactful. Without the auto-penetration, being at 70% resist would mean taking 20% more damage than if you were at 75%. With the auto-penetration, it's only 5% more damage.
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Sep 1, 2022 20:01
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