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Carthag Tuek posted:check this out lol I mean, at least Denmark did cool poo poo like sending jews across the sound. Meanwhile Finland is over there like "yeah ok so we were allied with the nazis in every possible way, but the nazis said the winter war was cool, so actually everything was cool and perkele we weren't even in the Axisé
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Sep 2, 2022 18:11
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| # ? May 27, 2024 01:07 |
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im Spice Island but also, i love these old maps. People love to pretend that our borders have been as they are since the dawn of time, and nobody traveled. historical texts are riddled with travelers, immigrants, and emigrants. historical border areas were ill defined & only somewhat recently were so many hard lines drawn by rulers. the people who lived there crossed over cause it wasn't important to them as long as they were in the same dialect continuum. i have found dozens of ancestors who up & borderhopped over the centuries. i know thats pretty close, but thats just logistics. it seems to have counted exactly the same to their neighbors if you came from another country, as it did if you came from the southern part of the island, ie youre "the new guy" for a while. and even if they weren't linguistically close, there are so many examples of people who traveled way further. greeks in india, chinese in western europe, vikings in america, arabs in northern europe, etc, etc. and thats just the ones we know of! so many travelogues are lost or were never written at all. modern people are idiots. probably ancient people were idiots too, but im not exposed to them in daily life so they dont make me as mad
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Sep 2, 2022 18:23
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The obvious solution after either World War would've been to forcibly revert Germany to something like this Hard to invade anyone else when you have to go through a dozen or so other Germanies to do so.
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Sep 2, 2022 18:44
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FreudianSlippers posted:The obvious solution after either World War would've been to forcibly revert Germany to something like this That worked out amazingly well the last time. Or is that  ?
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Sep 2, 2022 18:50
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That's just a map of German public transport zones.
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Sep 2, 2022 18:51
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i say swears online posted:caught this at the end of an article today I'm not even talking about WW2, Greeks are angry as hell about the economic depression and their view that Germany made everything even worse.
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Sep 2, 2022 19:06
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FreudianSlippers posted:The obvious solution after either World War would've been to forcibly revert Germany to something like this  ive said it before but seriously all nations should be microstates. no country with more than 1 million people
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Sep 2, 2022 19:09
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Take the plunge! Okay! posted:That worked out amazingly well the last time. Or is that The Thirty Years War was one of the most horrific periods in European history but at least it was fairly contained.
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Sep 2, 2022 19:10
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I love that this has the modern version of the Aral "Sea" on it. Also reminds me of how much I enjoyed reading about the Moroccan Muslim scholar Ibn Battuta traveling the Dar Al Islam in like the 1300s I think? Ended up in India then the Maldives then southern East Africa then Crimea and somehow made it home.
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Sep 2, 2022 20:10
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I love that this has the modern version of the Aral "Sea" on it. I learned the other day my mother-in-law is originally from Kökaral Island-turned-Peninsula. She doesn't talk about it. poo poo's depressing. 
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Sep 2, 2022 20:39
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FreudianSlippers posted:The obvious solution after either World War would've been to forcibly revert Germany to something like this There was a high level plan to do pretty much that that was seriously considered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan Tuxedo Gin posted:Well, forcing Germany to spend a decade or more working to pay back the rest of Europe certainly worked out well after WW1. Not sure what could go wrong if we did it again. War reparations, that sometimes lasted decades, were a feature of European politics for centuries. WW1's Versailles peace having a bad outcome doesn't invalidate the concept in any way. The problem in that specific case wasn't the reparations themselves, it was the lack of enduring security enforcement. If the Allies hadn't abandoned the occupation of the Ruhr in 1925 things would have gone much better for humanity.
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Sep 2, 2022 20:45
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An honour to have you on the forums, M. Clemenceau!
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Sep 2, 2022 20:48
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I love that this has the modern version of the Aral "Sea" on it. The muslim travelers are awesome, lots of first hands impressions from places way outside "the classical world". Another was ibn Fadlan.
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Sep 2, 2022 20:50
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Blut posted:There was a high level plan to do pretty much that that was seriously considered:
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Sep 2, 2022 21:09
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Blut posted:There was a high level plan to do pretty much that that was seriously considered: The issue with Versailles is that it wasn't harsh enough. Germany, like it or not, absolutely started the Great War and was run by a cabal of fanatic preisch militarists. Like even the Kaiser was sidelined so Germany could pick its war without his influence. Stomping it into the ground and dividing it under occupation is why we haven't seen german takeover bids in Europe since 1945, and it should have been done the first go round.
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Sep 2, 2022 21:20
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pretty sure there was a headline not long ago, that a european country had finished paying off like napoleonic war reparations
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Sep 2, 2022 22:19
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Carthag Tuek posted:pretty sure there was a headline not long ago, that a european country had finished paying off like napoleonic war reparations Germany finished paying its WW1 reparations in 2010. E: Technically the reparations ended in the 30s but they took out debt to pay them, which was paid off in 2010.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:24
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I would absolutely agree that the lesson from 1945 and our subsequent 80 years of peace in Europe would suggest the problem with 1919 wasn't too much harshness, it was a lack of harshness.A Buttery Pastry posted:Should have given southern Germany to Austria, then pinned the whole thing on "the Prussians". The North Germans getting hosed while their southern counterparts get to just move on might be just the thing to stop German unity, and any South German politician in charge would probably resist any attempts at unification (not done by them) much harder. A post-WW1 division along the lines of: Most of Poland's gains from 1945, Schleswig-Holstein back to the Danes, Germany West of the Rhine to France/Belgium/the Netherlands, and the Catholic parts of Southern Germany into a Catholic state with Austria Wouldn't have been too harsh by historical European war contexts at all, and would have had quite valid/manageable geographic/cultural/historical cleavages for the new states. Along with it punishing historically Prussian territory (both in the East and West) most of all, which would make moral/logical sense. In 1920 it would have left Greater Austria with a 20mn-ish population (and no Prussian junkers) and a Protestant/Northern Germany with a population of about 30mn. And both with much less industrialised economies than their population would suggest given the loss of the industrial areas along the Rhine. That would have resulted in a far more stable Europe than leaving a vengeful, economically and demographically dominant, unitary German state. The successor states would have been middling powers, with stronger neighbours all around them, far easier to keep the peace with.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:32
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No country that was in direct contact with Poland before 1990 still exists, so that should work as a check, just need to activate Poland again if needed.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:40
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Blut posted:I would absolutely agree that the lesson from 1945 and our subsequent 80 years of peace in Europe would suggest the problem with 1919 wasn't too much harshness, it was a lack of harshness. This is going to require an incredible amount of ethnic cleansing and/or the forceful suppression of millions upon millions of very angry and vengeful Germans. I'm not sure that would be moral or logical, or keep the peace, but it does make perfect sense if you think about it in terms of a paradox mapgame, which I can only assume was the sole basis of this line of thought.
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Sep 2, 2022 23:21
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Blut posted:A post-WW1 division along the lines of: Are you ethnically cleansing those areas west of the Rhine and east of the Oder or are you saddling France, Denmark and Poland with massive German minorities that do not want to stay part of that state? Either way is an incredibly stupid proposal and absolutely guarantees further conflict in the future. Edit: just to illustrate how dumb those territory transfers would be: Denmark was at ~3 million people at 1918, Schleswig-Holstein was at around 1.5 million, congratulations, Denmark now is 1/3rd German sheep-dodger fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Sep 2, 2022 |
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Sep 2, 2022 23:23
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Abba Kovner had some good ideas.
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Sep 2, 2022 23:59
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sheep-dodger posted:
Denmark, today, is 100% German.
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Sep 3, 2022 00:00
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You can't eliminate sections of the continent from ever mattering again, and handing off big chunks of territory just risks one of the postwar allies either getting into a more powerful position than its former allies and becoming a threat that way or having to fight off constant rebellions from their new captive populace, so that wasn't much of an option either. You can't beat the potential for aggression out of a culture either. That's not how people work.
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Sep 3, 2022 01:07
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FreudianSlippers posted:Abba Kovner had some good ideas. what ideas were those?
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Sep 3, 2022 01:09
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He wrote some good poems and suggested stalking the SS-Totenkopfverbände men who fled the consequences of their actions to the ends of the earth. Also some more controversial ideas.
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Sep 3, 2022 01:19
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ChubbyChecker posted:what ideas were those? Vengeance.
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Sep 3, 2022 02:22
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wikipedia posted:Kovner led Nakam, a paramilitary organization of Holocaust survivors who sought to take genocidal revenge by murdering six million German people, but Kovner was arrested in the British Zone of Occupied Germany before he could successfully carry out his plans. sheep-dodger posted:Edit: just to illustrate how dumb those territory transfers would be: Denmark was at ~3 million people at 1918, Schleswig-Holstein was at around 1.5 million, congratulations, Denmark now is 1/3rd German
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Sep 3, 2022 05:31
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I want to know what his plan was, since wikipedia seems to imply everything was in place to murder six million Germans. surely they just went to denmark? unless you're suggesting filling denmark with minnesotans as an improvement.
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Sep 3, 2022 06:28
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skåne halland & blekinge blev etnisk udrenset, men det er der ingen der snakker om
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Sep 3, 2022 06:49
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The balance could be adjusted a little with a right of return system, to get all the Danes who the Germans chased out and their descendants to move back. yeah, adding a bunch of foreign-born immigrants whose parents left the country 60 years ago is definitely going to defuse that tension, because a country that is only 25% full of angry nationalists is way more secure than one that is 33% full of angry nationalists (and that already would require you to rustle up 1.5 million new Danes somewhere)
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Sep 3, 2022 08:30
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:surely they just went to denmark? unless you're suggesting filling denmark with minnesotans as an improvement. A Buttery Pastry posted:I want to know what his plan was, since wikipedia seems to imply everything was in place to murder six million Germans. i looked it up and actually the biggest concentration of danish-americans and by extension danes abroad is utah. i'm not quite sure the mormons would immediately fit right in.
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Sep 3, 2022 08:51
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sheep-dodger posted:yeah, adding a bunch of foreign-born immigrants whose parents left the country 60 years ago is definitely going to defuse that tension, because a country that is only 25% full of angry nationalists is way more secure than one that is 33% full of angry nationalists (and that already would require you to rustle up 1.5 million new Danes somewhere) All it takes is some creative messaging. "The only democracy in Schleswig-Holstein area!", "The Danes are the light of civilization surrounded by barbarians!", "They saw unused wasteland and turned it into highly productive pig farm!", "The spread of secular Lutheran culture in northern Germany fulfills the prophecy of end times and paves the way for second coming of Christ!". Now this may not solve the question of ethnic tensions, but hopefully they'll gain the unwavering support of the world's lone superpower to put the Germans in their place and guarantee the supremacy of Danish settlers.
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Sep 3, 2022 09:26
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:surely they just went to denmark? unless you're suggesting filling denmark with minnesotans as an improvement. BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:i looked it up and actually the biggest concentration of danish-americans and by extension danes abroad is utah. i'm not quite sure the mormons would immediately fit right in.
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Sep 3, 2022 09:29
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Carthag Tuek posted:skåne halland & blekinge blev etnisk udrenset, men det er der ingen der snakker om On the one hand, Skåne, Halland and Blekinge are righteous Danish clay (rock, to be precise), but on the other hand, why would anyone want that place in their country? I know there real answer is agriculture I for one an totally buying the EU line about trade across borders and the financial benefits of stability being the main reason Europe has stopped attacking each other. The potential gains from war are too small compared to the benefits of trade and peace. Russia doesn't share that view, and also probably bought into their own "we will be greeted as liberators" propaganda. But it's not exactly going well for them in Ukraine...
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Sep 3, 2022 10:46
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BonHair posted:I for one an totally buying the EU line about trade across borders and the financial benefits of stability being the main reason Europe has stopped attacking each other. The potential gains from war are too small compared to the benefits of trade and peace.
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Sep 3, 2022 11:16
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Sep 3, 2022 11:38
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sheep-dodger posted:Are you ethnically cleansing those areas west of the Rhine and east of the Oder or are you saddling France, Denmark and Poland with massive German minorities that do not want to stay part of that state? Either way is an incredibly stupid proposal and absolutely guarantees further conflict in the future. Freudian posted:This is going to require an incredible amount of ethnic cleansing and/or the forceful suppression of millions upon millions of very angry and vengeful Germans. I'm not sure that would be moral or logical, or keep the peace, but it does make perfect sense if you think about it in terms of a paradox mapgame, which I can only assume was the sole basis of this line of thought. Schleswig-Holstein was significantly more Danish, and less German, before the removal of large amounts of Danes from the territory and importation of high numbers of Germans in 1864-1919. Arguing that in 1918 it was too German to ever be Danish is similar to arguing in 1945 that Czechia had become too integral a part of the Reich to ever not be part of Germany. Reverting years of German colonialism in S-H would have been as worthy an outcome as reversing the colonisation of Czechia was. Germany didn't ethnically cleanse the millions of French people in Alsace–Lorraine in 1871 and would have had no domestic problems holding the territory indefinitely if WW1 hadn't broken out. And the same applied to the millions of Poles who suffered under the Prussians for over a century from the partition until 1919. Territorial transfers of this nature and subsequent gradual population shifts occurred after most wars in European history. Calling the division of Germany an "incredibly stupid proposal and absolutely guarantees further conflict in the future" is pretty hilarious given the outcome the world got in real life from leaving Germany as the most powerful state in Europe in 1919 demographically and economically - WW2 and the holocaust. Its highly unlikely things could have gone worse.
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Sep 3, 2022 11:45
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The ural's are a pathetic mountain range for babies. Hardly worthy dividing a continent over. This majestic thing is its highest peak:  . It isn't even the highest peak in russia. It isn't even in the top 100 highest mountains in russia. It's the 124th highest mountain in russia. this hill should divide a continent?
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Sep 3, 2022 12:35
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| # ? May 27, 2024 01:07 |
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The world has two continents, Afroeurasia and America.
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Sep 3, 2022 12:46
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