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  All of these are wonderful, the sad ones especially. Although I guess that is most of them.
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Sep 5, 2022 13:15
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Was there a reasoning given behind Composure looking like Alfred Hitchcock presents?
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Sep 5, 2022 14:15
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it's a perfectly straight line ie Keeping A Straight Back, ie not flinching and literally maintaining your composure.
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Sep 5, 2022 15:01
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https://twitter.com/coyote_actuaI/status/1566807690084499457
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Sep 5, 2022 17:13
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midnight lasagna posted:
That visual calculus one is astoundingly good.
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Sep 5, 2022 17:32
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this theory's funquote:
from: https://thecityshivers.tumblr.com/post/667119537405280256/so-i-was-thinking-about-this-post-and-about-disco
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Sep 5, 2022 18:23
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Unless there's some sort of time shenanigans--although there is one point during I think the moralist quest where you can hear a conversation with Kim that doesn't potentially happen until later on so that might not be off the table--the swallow predates the rest of the city. It's less that the hole in reality formed in Martinase, that Martinase and the church formed around the swallow.
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Sep 5, 2022 20:20
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I've finally been playing this and the voice actor for the horrific tie deserves an Oscar or BAFTA or summat. I'm going to have to do another run where I don't let it sacrifice itself though, makes me feel bad. 
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Sep 5, 2022 20:30
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I’m not at all convinced that poverty stifles creativity, and it’s not like nobody in Martinaise has any leisure time, otherwise there wouldn’t be a bar or a bookstore.
Wafflecopper fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Sep 5, 2022 |
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Sep 5, 2022 21:36
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christmas boots posted:Unless there's some sort of time shenanigans--although there is one point during I think the moralist quest where you can hear a conversation with Kim that doesn't potentially happen until later on so that might not be off the table--the swallow predates the rest of the city. It's less that the hole in reality formed in Martinase, that Martinase and the church formed around the swallow. And that’s also where the new happens (the church initially) and then later adonic music.
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Sep 5, 2022 23:00
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Isn't part of the Wompty Dompty Dom Center a jab at the rich using art purely as a means of soul wealth accumulation? The rich aren't producing anything new. I've always taken the Pale to partially be a hauntology-as-physics type thing.
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Sep 6, 2022 01:27
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catgirlgenius posted:this theory's fun Not if Lieutenant Double-Yefreitor Harrier Du Bois has anything to say about it
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Sep 6, 2022 04:18
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Wrr posted:Isn't part of the Wompty Dompty Dom Center a jab at the rich using art purely as a means of soul wealth accumulation? The rich aren't producing anything new. Yeah, or that’s what I always assumed it was. I haven’t read this in a while but this blog post was the first time I’d heard the term, and it’s more music focused but is also about the political aspect of it http://rougesfoam.blogspot.com/2009/10/hauntology-past-inside-present.html?m=1 It’s a pretty cool spin on the idea, similar to the communist book club’s infra-materialism and Posadism, which is a weird Marxist offshoot that believed communism was the only way for humans to make the sort of technological leaps that would allow things like space travel and interplanetary civilizations, and that if there were any alien civilizations that had that technology, that they had to be a post capitalist species https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_International_Posadist
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Sep 6, 2022 07:18
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Wrr posted:I've always taken the Pale to partially be a hauntology-as-physics type thing. I think this is exactly it. A running thread throughout DE and its setting is philosophical metaphysics-as-physics. The whole concept of the Innocents and their guiding of history is a wholesale reference to Hegelian historiography and his concept of World-Spirit. But where Hegel conceives of history and World Spirit as kind of imperceptible, purely rational necessary conditions, the Innocents are direct physical incarnations of History. Philosophical ideas that in our universe are purely rational and theoretical have actual physical implications in the Revachol, and the pale is way too similar Fisher’s idea of Capitalist Realism and hauntology to be a coincidence.
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Sep 6, 2022 11:49
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I read the Pale as (among other things) as sort of spiritual entropy that can only be resisted with powerful manifestations of hope. Whether that's sending ships into the unknown Pale with little more than the hope of finding new isolas, building a church around a 2mm hole in the world, the visceral thrill of surrendering to anodic dance music, or the hope for mankind that is Communism. Egghead gets it 
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Sep 6, 2022 15:00
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I feel like the anodic dance music aspect is also a pretty specific reference to hauntology, or the fact that most of the music that mark fisher covered wrt hauntology was like UK club music like burial, or stuff like the caretaker, which is sort of like collage music made from sampled tapes or old vinyl, which is how you, egghead and Acele produce music. And Arno Van Eyck’s jam, resurrecting what feels like a part that Arno Van Eyck wrote himself through a tape mash up basically. Tape loops are probably the most hauntological way of making music.
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Sep 6, 2022 16:10
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sebzilla posted:I read the Pale as (among other things) as sort of spiritual entropy that can only be resisted with powerful manifestations of hope. Whether that's sending ships into the unknown Pale with little more than the hope of finding new isolas, building a church around a 2mm hole in the world, the visceral thrill of surrendering to anodic dance music, or the hope for mankind that is Communism. Huh didn’t notice the fish reference there before.
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Sep 6, 2022 16:14
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Huh didn’t notice the fish reference there before. Isn’t it just referencing the question he asks you when you’re trying to figure out the egghead puzzle or whatever before that asking how much is the fish? Which is a reference to this, or is that what you meant? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbB3iGRHtqA
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Sep 6, 2022 16:24
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This also goes without saying but Arno Van Eyck is almost certainly a reference to Paul van Dyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRvEwXDxz_I
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Sep 6, 2022 18:14
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https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2019/07/the-ghosts-of-our-lives interesting article on hauntology.
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Sep 6, 2022 21:45
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best interpretation I’ve read of the Pale is that it’s a manifestation of stagnant history slowly eating up the world through its accumulated pasts, which means the chief culprit of its spread (other than simple entropy) is moralism and its fixation on controlled changelessness. the world is dissolving in the vitriol of memory and only the new can neutralize it
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Sep 6, 2022 21:47
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bop bop perano posted:Isn’t it just referencing the question he asks you when you’re trying to figure out the egghead puzzle or whatever before that asking how much is the fish? Which is a reference to this, or is that what you meant? Fish is a religious symbol. And that this is in a church, in a game that explicitly uses religious symbols, in a situation of salvation, it’s almost certainly not an accidental choice.
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Sep 6, 2022 23:10
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Oxxidation posted:best interpretation I’ve read of the Pale is that it’s a manifestation of stagnant history slowly eating up the world through its accumulated pasts, which means the chief culprit of its spread (other than simple entropy) is moralism and its fixation on controlled changelessness. the world is dissolving in the vitriol of memory and only the new can neutralize it It's important to note that the new is also mad of "history". New islands are not "discovered" within the pale, the pale itself coalesces and solidifies to create new worlds.
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Sep 7, 2022 00:07
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imo pale is only sorta hauntological in the weird way of having rarified past as a manifest property of the universe. It isn’t a failure of past conditions for the future promised as a gap in history, it’s an actual problem that demands novelty ultimately, it’s historical reaction as a world threat, increased by literally robbing ideas from the future besides human activity (going from what was talked about in the untranslated book some good bunch of pages back) also egghead is potentially an innocentic candidate
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Sep 7, 2022 00:27
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Oxxidation posted:best interpretation I’ve read of the Pale is that it’s a manifestation of stagnant history slowly eating up the world through its accumulated pasts, which means the chief culprit of its spread (other than simple entropy) is moralism and its fixation on controlled changelessness. the world is dissolving in the vitriol of memory and only the new can neutralize it Moralism (when it still had its prophetess around) was also the guiding ideology of the ships that crossed the Pale and connected the isolas. At one point, moralism was politically novel, though it now exists to strangle potential. That also raises an interesting question: was Kras Mazov himself an innocence, who was denied the same kind of ascension that other innocences like Dolores Dei received? And if so, then what power does an innocence actually have as a world-defining figure, thought to be bearers of inexorable change, if the world can reject them?
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Sep 7, 2022 02:01
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Did the world truly reject Kraz Mazov or was his ascension to being an innocence deliberately strangled in the cradle by the forces of capital?
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Sep 7, 2022 02:54
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King Carnivore posted:Did the world truly reject Kraz Mazov or was his ascension to being an innocence deliberately strangled in the cradle by the forces of capital? I think the distinction is irrelevant when talking about them as a metaphysical/supranatural thing. An innocence is, according to the doctrines of Innocentic worship, an inexorable change in Elysium embodied in and promoted by a single person. They exist separate and, in some cases, in opposition to the world. They emerge only to bring about a significant and sometimes destructive change - the Perikarnassian for the establishment of the gold standard, Franconegro for enshrining hereditary rule and the abolition of serfdom, Dolores Dei for the creation of a modern liberal system of governance, and potentially Kras Mazov for the liberation of the working class. If they were defeated before they can bring about that change, then in this abstract sense you can say the world has rejected them.
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Sep 7, 2022 03:50
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Just rolling it around in my head some more, maybe it makes more sense to view Mazov not as a failed Innocence but as the antithesis of Dolores Dei, and the synthesis, in the form of a new Innocence and/or The Gloaming, is yet to come. E: Or more aptly, the antithesis of Sola with her laissez faire attitude towards being an innocence and the world in general. King Carnivore fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Sep 7, 2022 |
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Sep 7, 2022 04:12
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The Innocentic system I think is only mentioned in the context of the nations of Mundi (and by extension Insulinde) without it being made clear to what extent the other isolas accept them? So just being from Graad could have been enough to stop Mazov from ever having been thought of as an Innocence.
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Sep 7, 2022 05:44
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Wafflecopper posted:I’m not at all convinced that poverty stifles creativity, and it’s not like nobody in Martinaise has any leisure time, otherwise there wouldn’t be a bar or a bookstore. Never heard of a broke artist doing anything *creative*.
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Sep 7, 2022 09:39
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bop bop perano posted:Isn’t it just referencing the question he asks you when you’re trying to figure out the egghead puzzle or whatever before that asking how much is the fish? Which is a reference to this, or is that what you meant? If you want to go deeper on this, the melody Scooter is using here is from a Breton folk song. It was used by Dutch band Bots in 1976 for their explicitly socialist song "Zeven dagen lang". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le6uFnLwqYU They also translated this song to German and had some success there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh3Y_jtDADo It's entirely possible Scooter first heard this melody from this.
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Sep 7, 2022 09:49
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Orange Devil posted:Never heard of a broke artist doing anything *creative*. It's possible to miss a lot of stuff in this game, but I don't understand how anyone could possibly miss the art happening.
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Sep 7, 2022 10:01
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Sierra Madre posted:I think the distinction is irrelevant when talking about them as a metaphysical/supranatural thing. An innocence is, according to the doctrines of Innocentic worship, an inexorable change in Elysium embodied in and promoted by a single person. They exist separate and, in some cases, in opposition to the world. They emerge only to bring about a significant and sometimes destructive change - the Perikarnassian for the establishment of the gold standard, Franconegro for enshrining hereditary rule and the abolition of serfdom, Dolores Dei for the creation of a modern liberal system of governance, and potentially Kras Mazov for the liberation of the working class. If they were defeated before they can bring about that change, then in this abstract sense you can say the world has rejected them. Exactly. Mazov failed in bringing about change, and thus was not and never could have been an Innocence definitionally. Had he have been an Innocence, he would have succeeded irrespective of any opposition.
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Sep 7, 2022 13:28
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Orange Devil posted:Never heard of a broke artist doing anything *creative*. is this missing a question mark at the end
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Sep 7, 2022 13:42
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Empty Sandwich posted:is this missing a question mark at the end i believe op was using sarcasm to agree with me. someone posted a blog claiming the pale was in martinaise because it was so poor nobody had the time to be creative and make new things. i said i had a hard time buying the argument that poverty stifles creativity. i didn't quite spell it out in my post but like... that's obviously ridiculous, the struggling artist stereotype exists for a reason. if anything poverty breeds creativity. unless i'm misreading it, the post you quoted was spelling out the part that i didn't Wafflecopper fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Sep 7, 2022 |
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Sep 7, 2022 14:25
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the struggling artist stereotype is a crock of poo poo but that argument’s flawed for other reasons, mainly that the kind of “novelty” produced by wealth is usually just an extension/calcification of pre-existing paradigms and therefore wouldn’t be the sort of transformative event needed to counteract Pale. a new iPhone isn’t actually “new,” it’s just another iPhone
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Sep 7, 2022 14:29
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ah, gotcha. I could not follow the chain.
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Sep 7, 2022 14:40
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you need to have some level of ambient social support in order to be a starving artist, like the novelty dicemaker with her radio milieus and well-off patrons. cuno is poor and has artistic impulses (the night city) but he's unlikely to find the free time and peace of mind needed to get really good at making architectural models out of card stock or whatever
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Sep 7, 2022 15:36
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I don’t know poo poo about what the last 10 pages of this thread are talking about, but boy do I love me some Disco Elysium! And now that I’m a year or so out from a bad breakup, I’ll have the stomach to play through this amazing game again.
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Sep 7, 2022 15:52
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Contact Mike never worried himself about stretching a metaphor or wondering about the perniciousness of nostalgia or whatever. He just saw what needed doing and did it, and as a result he's the greatest there ever was and a testament to hard work and role model for today's misguided youth and their worrying about the pale
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Sep 7, 2022 15:59
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