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rkd_ posted:This will probably improve as more episodes are released but it was literally a fight that lasted a couple of seconds and all Galadriel did was run on top of the sword and jumped. There were no crazy gravity-defying jumps, 360s or any other action move that would be too far out of the realm of possibility. A lady did it, so it was bad. /s
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Sep 7, 2022 23:17
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Wasn't Tolkien pretty anti-war though? He saw his besties blown up in one of the worst, most hideous battles of WWI. Associating the battles with elven gymnastics and other fuckawesome Legolas moves always seemed to be some of the weakest parts of the original Jackson trilogy, and there's a reason that a lot of people make fun of the unnecessary Barrel Scene in the second Hobbit movie.
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Sep 7, 2022 23:17
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Noam Chomsky posted:Clearly you don't like the source material because elves in the silmarilion may as well be DragonBall Z characters. Clearly. You are a font of loving insight.
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Sep 7, 2022 23:18
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I grew up obsessing over the books and I thought the shield surfing and oliphant kill were both sick as hell
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Sep 7, 2022 23:20
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Weed Wolf posted:Wasn't Tolkien pretty anti-war though? He saw his besties blown up in one of the worst, most hideous battles of WWI. Associating the battles with elven gymnastics and other fuckawesome Legolas moves always seemed to be some of the weakest parts of the original Jackson trilogy, and there's a reason that a lot of people make fun of the unnecessary Barrel Scene in the second Hobbit movie. They were movies and it's entertaining to see superhuman characters do superhuman things. Even Aragorn is superhuman. Also, the Hobbit movies sucked and there are many, many reasons for that.
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Sep 7, 2022 23:21
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I grew up obsessing over the books and I thought the shield surfing and oliphant kill were both sick as hell Because they absolutely were. Academy awards and eleventy billion dollars agree!
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Sep 7, 2022 23:22
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Weed Wolf posted:Wasn't Tolkien pretty anti-war though? He saw his besties blown up in one of the worst, most hideous battles of WWI. Associating the battles with elven gymnastics and other fuckawesome Legolas moves always seemed to be some of the weakest parts of the original Jackson trilogy, and there's a reason that a lot of people make fun of the unnecessary Barrel Scene in the second Hobbit movie. A lot of people quote Faramir to describe Tolkien's stance on war: quote:War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. There is also this quote by Sam to Frodo: quote:There's some good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it's worth fighting for. Spoilers just in case people watch this show without having seen the movies. So while Tolkien understandably regretted the loss of life, he does seem to accept that the alternative would have been worse (just like it would be in Lord of The Rings). Whether Legolas' antics fit in there can be debated, but looking at some of the feats of other characters, they would not be breaking entirely with the lore. Anyway, the movies were also clearly made to appeal to a broad audience.
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Sep 7, 2022 23:27
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BRAKE FOR MOOSE posted:I grew up obsessing over the books and I thought the shield surfing and oliphant kill were both sick as hell  My only issue with the troll fight here was that it felt obligatory, like they needed to toss in an action scene to draw people in before all the scenes of folks talking. And maybe that's true, I dunno. Either way, a small thing that I mostly forgot about as the episodes went on.
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Sep 7, 2022 23:28
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The battles are a very small part of why I like either the books or the movies, and I bet I'm not alone in this. I like the setting and world building, the languages words and names of things, I like how it pulls from old literature and myth and remixes it as this new thing. I like how the relationship between Sam and Frodo is so instrumental in getting the ring to Mt. Doom, I like the part that Gollum plays in it, the whole deal with how Bilbo's pity for "this creature" ends up playing the ultimately decisive role. Gandalf is great. I love how the hobbits are petty provincial Englishmen. Hell, I even don't mind a lot of the songs. And then even after completing the quest and basically saving the world, it is not truly saved for the Hobbits and especially not for Frodo who is traumatized and can't ever truly "return home". There's actually a sense of real sacrifice. In the movies there's the incredible care that went into the pre-production and art direction of bring this world to life on the screen in various ways, the cast is great, and the movies as a whole are fantastic, especially Fellowship, with its ultimate accomplishment as adaptation being how it portrays Boromir's death. The costumes, sets and locations chosen are fantastic and beautiful. There is so much to love before you get to the battles, and they have good things in them, but they also represent the point where the series comes the closest to tumbling and how it set up some precedents that future movies learnt all the wrong lessons from (any adventure/fantasy movie has to have a big battle scene for instance). There is so much to love, if you then focus on big battle spectacles and "cool fights" and just how powerful this and that character is, I think you lose alot of what is actually magical about all this.
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Sep 7, 2022 23:29
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thrawn527 posted:So like, just how hard to read is The Silmarillion? This show (and this thread) has me watching YouTube videos of Tolkien lore, and I was wondering if I should finally give it a shot, after avoiding it for years. I've been told it's like reading the Bible. Super dense? You can actually watch the full interview and see that this name is never mentioned by the actor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnRtfGjssu4 Wires somehow crossed or intentional disinformation. Wouldn't be surprised if Amazon started the rumor somehow since speculation about the character seems to be one of the most interesting hooks from the first 2 episodes.
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Sep 7, 2022 23:35
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Randarkman posted:The battles are a very small part of why I like either the books or the movies, and I bet I'm not alone in this. I like the setting and world building, the languages words and names of things, I like how it pulls from old literature and myth and remixes it as this new thing. I like how the relationship between Sam and Frodo is so instrumental in getting the ring to Mt. Doom, I like the part that Gollum plays in it, the whole deal with how Bilbo's pity for "this creature" ends up playing the ultimately decisive role. Gandalf is great. I love how the hobbits are petty provincial Englishmen. Hell, I even don't mind a lot of the songs. And then even after completing the quest and basically saving the world, it is not truly saved for the Hobbits and especially not for Frodo who is traumatized and can't ever truly "return home". There's actually a sense of real sacrifice. But so far we have seen three very short battles in the show, one to show the faith of Galadriel's brother and/or her motivation, one to show the power of Galadriel and then the Orc in the village. Of course I can't speak for the rest of the show but there has been no focus on big battles or cool fights at all IMO. Most of the show so far has been world building and character introduction.
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Sep 7, 2022 23:37
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rkd_ posted:But so far we have seen three very short battles in the show, one to show the faith of Galadriel's brother and/or her motivation, one to show the power of Galadriel and then the Orc in the village. Of course I can't speak for the rest of the show but there has been no focus on big battles or cool fights at all IMO. Most of the show so far has been world building and character introduction. Yes. That post was a response to someone saying that because I don't like Legolas surfing on an elephant trunk or thought the sword ramp was stupid and embarassing that means I never really liked LotR to begin with. Elaborate and indulgent battles is not yet something in this show. The sword-ramp made me apprehensive in a "oh boy here we go again" thing, but it wasn't really a thing beyond that first scene. And I hope it stays that way. The rest of the first episode I thought was bad for other reasons, and then I thought the second one was much better.
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Sep 7, 2022 23:41
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Randarkman posted:The battles are a very small part of why I like either the books or the movies, and I bet I'm not alone in this. I like the setting and world building, the languages words and names of things, I like how it pulls from old literature and myth and remixes it as this new thing. I like how the relationship between Sam and Frodo is so instrumental in getting the ring to Mt. Doom, I like the part that Gollum plays in it, the whole deal with how Bilbo's pity for "this creature" ends up playing the ultimately decisive role. Gandalf is great. I love how the hobbits are petty provincial Englishmen. Hell, I even don't mind a lot of the songs. And then even after completing the quest and basically saving the world, it is not truly saved for the Hobbits and especially not for Frodo who is traumatized and can't ever truly "return home". There's actually a sense of real sacrifice. The battles aren't even half of what there is to love about the books and movies but if there is a battle and I want to show you that a character is otherworldly and powerful then they're going to he doing sick shield surfing tricks down stairs and walking on snow and sliding down oliphant trunks. In a book I can just tell you Gandalf is a Maiar spirit and that older elves are almost as powerful/special/whatever and that neither can actually die and all the other things going on there. In movie I have to show you and the easiest way to do it is to show an elf doing cool, impossible stuff in and out of battle. I get why people expect Tolken elves to just be Drizzt Do'Urden, though.
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Sep 7, 2022 23:41
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Randarkman posted:Yes. That post was a response to someone saying that because I don't like Legolas surfing on an elephant trunk or thought the sword ramp was stupid and embarassing that means I never really liked LotR to begin with. I wasn't specifically addressing you with any of my posts. Just using your post earlier as a jumping off point to talk about people complaining about what elves can't do - Galadriel swimming back to ME, for example, which she can do since Elves pretty much have infinite stamina. Eldrond, for example, gives up in their little rock busting competition on purpose. There just aren't a lot of them so they need to work with other races, especially since Sauron can just keep grinding out Orcs and other horrors. Anyway, sorry I came across as meaning that you had to like any individual scene. I'm specifically referring to someone who doesn't like it because they don't think the character could do it, since Elves have done even wackier. Noam Chomsky fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Sep 7, 2022 |
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Sep 7, 2022 23:43
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thrawn527 posted:So like, just how hard to read is The Silmarillion? This show (and this thread) has me watching YouTube videos of Tolkien lore, and I was wondering if I should finally give it a shot, after avoiding it for years. I've been told it's like reading the Bible. Super dense? Less dense, though there's a lot of names to learn that end up not being mentioned again after a chapter or two, like the Bible, and it's dry. I found the GRRM Fire and Blood book to be similarly dry. I've read it at least half a dozen times and I like it but it's still not the most relaxing read. If you're used to the Hobbit it's quite a change. For reference, though, I also generally skip the Rohan chapters when I reread LotR quote:Quick note if it helps for the recommendation, I dislike the singing portions of the LOTR books. Just tend to skip right over them. From what I'm seeing, that, uh, comes up. It's literally the defining act of creation of the entire tolkien universe
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Sep 7, 2022 23:46
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rkd_ posted:If an Elf can run on snow without so much as denting it I think they can also be launched off of a sword. Or surf down stairs on a shield!
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Sep 7, 2022 23:48
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Dawgstar posted:Or surf down stairs on a shield! Or up stairs that are actively falling 
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Sep 7, 2022 23:48
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Noam Chomsky posted:I get why people expect Tolken elves to just be Drizzt Do'Urden, though. What does this even mean? Noam Chomsky posted:Just using your post earlier as a jumping off point to talk about people complaining about what elves can't do - Galadriel swimming back to ME, for example, which she can do since Elves pretty much have infinite stamina. I mean, she didn't even do that. It was a bit of a lol what when the episode ended on her just swimming in the middle of an ocean. But she got on a raft with someone early on in the next episode. Pointing to "stats" and "attributes" like it's a game does not make things either engaging or interesting. It does the exact opposite. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Sep 7, 2022 |
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Sep 7, 2022 23:50
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I definitely dislike the troll fight but not because of the sword-jump. That was fine imo, and the coup de grace at the end was excellent at conveying Galadriel's composure, strength, and reflexes all at once. No, what makes the troll fight suck are the strangely-sluggish twirly movements in between. Should have just had her airborne-shank the troll ala Achilles in his intro against that big hulking dude in that old Troy movie. Keep the opening, keep the ending, get rid of the twirly poo poo in between and let the supposedly hyper-goal-focused character go straight for the kill. Much better way to convey a character outclassing a dangerous foe than a bunch of twirly poo poo, especially when said character is the opposite of an ostentatious show-off. It's just plain bad choreography for the story being told. Finrod's battle scene kinda suffers from the issue of being slow - compare with Aragorn's fight scenes during Helm's Deep or Pelennor Fields - but since there's no ostentatious flashy movement the audience can reasonably internalize the sluggishness as part of fatigue from the absolutely gigantic gently caress-off-long epic battle taking place. Zero complaints about the fight scene with the orc tunneler though. That's good stuff.
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Sep 7, 2022 23:51
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Jaxyon posted:For reference, though, I also generally skip the Rohan chapters when I reread LotR Neither here nor there really, but I was curious what you don’t like about the Rohan chapters? Not looking to start a shitfight or anything like that, simply curious.
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Sep 7, 2022 23:52
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MrMojok posted:Neither here nor there really, but I was curious what you don’t like about the Rohan chapters? Couldn't really tell you, I just find them to be boring. On the whole I don't find Tolkien to be the most enjoyable writer to read, despite being a huge fan of his worldbuilding and appreciating his influene.
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Sep 7, 2022 23:53
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https://twitter.com/LOTRonPrime/status/1567640086954790912
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Sep 7, 2022 23:59
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I also feel compelled to note that the sword-jump has an actual storytelling purpose for being there: while it keeps the spotlight on the main character of the sequence, it demonstrates that this is a practiced team with a history of working together. That's actually really important for putting the following mutiny into perspective.
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Sep 7, 2022 23:59
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Jaxyon posted:Couldn't really tell you, I just find them to be boring. Yeah his pacing leaves a lot to be desired. For example in the movies, Frodo is loving off the very night that he learns what the Ring actually is. In the books Gandalf doesn't come back for 17 years, and then instead of fleeing the imminent danger, Frodo and Gandalf spend 2 months getting his affairs in order, and it's like almost six months before they get out of the shire. Just Zero urgency. So the structural demands of a television series, in terms of structuring episodes, and those episodes into seasons, are going to mean serious deviation from JRRT's meandering, bucolic style that's not really in any hurry to get anywhere. They aren't doing a 1:1 retelling of any specific story, but those who like to take the scenic route through Middle Earth probably are going to feel rushed.
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Sep 8, 2022 00:00
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Corbeau posted:I also feel compelled to note that the sword-jump has an actual storytelling purpose for being there: while it keeps the spotlight on the main character of the sequence, it demonstrates that this is a practiced team with a history of working together. That's actually really important for putting the following mutiny into perspective. There's no Galadri-L in team
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Sep 8, 2022 00:02
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thrawn527 posted:So like, just how hard to read is The Silmarillion? This show (and this thread) has me watching YouTube videos of Tolkien lore, and I was wondering if I should finally give it a shot, after avoiding it for years. I've been told it's like reading the Bible. Super dense? For the rest of the Silmarillion, the Bible isn't a bad comparison (only without all the parts about laws). There's a mix of more abstract mythological stories, chapters just about describing the setting, big battles told from a broad perspective, and some smaller personal stories. You mentioned not liking the songs, but how do you feel about the parts of LOTR describing the landscapes the characters walked through? I'd say that's closer to the feel of some of the slower parts. Also I read it around the age of 12 and loving loved it, so it might just click with you.
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Sep 8, 2022 00:03
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Corbeau posted:I also feel compelled to note that the sword-jump has an actual storytelling purpose for being there: while it keeps the spotlight on the main character of the sequence, it demonstrates that this is a practiced team with a history of working together. That's actually really important for putting the following mutiny into perspective. Yeah there's a lot of visual shorthand that communicates things used in visual media that isn't technically in the books, and people always complain about this type of stuff. For me, I ask "is there a book version that communicates the same thing I need to do here just as effectively?" If no, then the adaptation has to make up some poo poo. But yeah for RoP, almost all of it is made up
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Sep 8, 2022 00:05
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Oh god the comments.
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Sep 8, 2022 00:10
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Llamadeus posted:And also there are basically no songs in Silmarillion compared to LotR. Thanks to everyone for your responses, but this comment right here sold me. Just bought it for my Kindle.
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Sep 8, 2022 00:10
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i personally think this show is a mess but sweet jesus the discourse around it has really gotten out of hand, like searching rings of power on twitter or especially youtube will delete your brain cells
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Sep 8, 2022 00:12
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The troll fight complete with a cgi blood splatter on the lens was a little goofy but I'm guessing they (probably rightfully) assumed you'd start losing the audience pretty fast if people weren't banging swords together periodically. From a lore perspective it doesn't make a lot of sense since trolls were bred by Sauron and so the existence of one would pretty much prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Galadriel was right, but for me that falls into the "minutiae that doesn't really matter" category.
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Sep 8, 2022 00:18
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a character putting their weapon down for another character to use as a springboard into a multiattack that defeats a huge enemy is like stereotypical and cool as gently caress Dungeons and Dragons and if you have a problem with it go find your inner child again the world has broken you
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Sep 8, 2022 00:24
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:The troll fight complete with a cgi blood splatter on the lens was a little goofy but I'm guessing they (probably rightfully) assumed you'd start losing the audience pretty fast if people weren't banging swords together periodically. Nah trolls are old Melkor stuff. Olog-hai, smarter trolls than can tolerate sunlight were bred by Sauron.
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Sep 8, 2022 00:26
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So I don't understand the criticism. Do some people not realize it's make believe? That there is no more significance to how Tolkien imagined anything than whomever made this?
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Sep 8, 2022 00:42
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Funky See Funky Do posted:Nah trolls are old Melkor stuff. Olog-hai, smarter trolls than can tolerate sunlight were bred by Sauron. And even if trolls were bred by Sauron... so what? Galadrial is looking for Sauron to put his rear end down. The presence of a troll in a fortress that Sauron occupied centuries ago isn't proof that he's still around.
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Sep 8, 2022 00:43
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I like it when they do cool sword tricks and neat acrobatic feats. Its me I'm the one it was made for.
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Sep 8, 2022 00:45
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zoux posted:Yeah his pacing leaves a lot to be desired. For example in the movies, Frodo is loving off the very night that he learns what the Ring actually is. In the books Gandalf doesn't come back for 17 years, and then instead of fleeing the imminent danger, Frodo and Gandalf spend 2 months getting his affairs in order, and it's like almost six months before they get out of the shire. Just Zero urgency. And immediately sends him to Bree to find a man he intends to be his guide/bodyguard, who carries in his scabbard a sword hilt with 4” of blade attached
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Sep 8, 2022 00:49
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rkd_ posted:Oh god the comments. I will assume "I'm not racist/sexist but ALL THESE BROWN PEOPLE AND WOMEN PEOPLE ARE AN AFFRONT!" repeated ad infinitum.
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Sep 8, 2022 00:59
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Dawgstar posted:I will assume "I'm not racist/sexist but ALL THESE BROWN PEOPLE AND WOMEN PEOPLE ARE AN AFFRONT!" repeated ad infinitum. Exactly, and also either total denial about any racist comments but that the show is just bad OR people saying "Tolkien was actually a racist/a product of his time so the show should honor him in that regard". Which like, Tolkien was not even racist or a product of his time. I think this quote perfectly sums up Tolkien's attitude toward a diverse cast (albeit in response to Apartheid): quote:But I have the hatred of apartheid in my bones; and most of all, I detest the segregation or separation of Language and Literature. I do not care which of them you think White. Also, I know I'm preaching to the choir here but the downfall of the Elves through their pride (even within their own race) and the impact 'lesser' races such as the hobbits have in the stories say enough about how Tolkien felt about the foolishness that is racial supremacy.
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Sep 8, 2022 01:13
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rkd_ posted:Exactly, and also either total denial about any racist comments but that the show is just bad OR people saying "Tolkien was actually a racist/a product of his time so the show should honor him in that regard". One thing to remember about Return of the King was that the King's Return, the Siege/Battle of Minis Tirith and the mustering and march on Mordor and all those other grand, glorious things were all a ginormous distraction designed to keep Sauron from spotting a couple of hairy-footed little dudes quietly walking toward Mt. Doom to end his rear end by melting the Ring. If the people of the West had thought that a big-rear end fireworks show and pants-off dance-off would have worked better they'd have done that instead.
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Sep 8, 2022 02:06
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