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El Grillo posted:I wish they'd done the books' horror stuff tbh. The show mostly avoided it for some reason, or did horror-ish stuff but toned down mostly (bat mouth). Given that it's one of the things that distinguishes WoT in the fantasy genre, it seems a shame. Also there are really big moments later in the series which have significant kind of body horror elements, like Dumai's Wells. i really liked Perrin's dream with the glowing eyes staring through the windows behind him could have used more time to breathe, but it was a great image
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Sep 6, 2022 21:07
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:i really liked Perrin's dream with the glowing eyes staring through the windows behind him I didn't even see the window ones until like my 2nd or 3rd watch.
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Sep 6, 2022 22:10
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Since Wheel of Time came out, it seems like visual media have gotten more violent. Saving Private Ryan, various HBO properties, the Saw franchise (and other similar films). Would the body horror of the books still land as strongly to a modern viewer? Or would it just feel like Amazon trying to parrot Game of Thrones, and either failing to top the violence or going extra gratuitous to make sure the first thing doesn’t happen?
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Sep 6, 2022 23:57
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The people want sex & violence. Give the people what they want, Rafe you coward.
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Sep 7, 2022 00:53
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How are u posted:The people want sex & violence. Give the people what they want, Rafe you coward. Rafe nods, writes 'must be shirtless!!' next to every Galad scene in the script.
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Sep 7, 2022 01:05
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q_k posted:Rafe nods, writes 'must be shirtless!!' next to every Gaul scene in the script.
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Sep 7, 2022 01:14
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some of the scariest poo poo in the series, to me, doesn't even involve gore. a lot of it tends to involve women characters as well, which is probably why my brain empathizes with it so much. if the show can portray how horrifying some of those things are in the way the books do then it will probably absolutely gently caress with some people.
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Sep 7, 2022 01:23
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Johnny Joestar posted:some of the scariest poo poo in the series, to me, doesn't even involve gore. a lot of it tends to involve women characters as well, which is probably why my brain empathizes with it so much. Perrin interrogating the Aiel was definitely pretty hosed up, and there's not a lot of body horror to that.
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Sep 7, 2022 02:35
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Johnny Joestar posted:some of the scariest poo poo in the series, to me, doesn't even involve gore. a lot of it tends to involve women characters as well, which is probably why my brain empathizes with it so much. I mean we're gonna see how Egwene's captivity goes next season, one must expect. Honestly, one of the absolute scariest lines is when she's telling Min to remember her name when she's shipped off to seanchan
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Sep 7, 2022 03:06
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Grundulum posted:Since Wheel of Time came out, it seems like visual media have gotten more violent. Saving Private Ryan, various HBO properties, the Saw franchise (and other similar films). Would the body horror of the books still land as strongly to a modern viewer? Or would it just feel like Amazon trying to parrot Game of Thrones, and either failing to top the violence or going extra gratuitous to make sure the first thing doesn’t happen? Is there much in the way of body horror in the series? I only finished a read of it a few months ago and I'm struggling to think of any body horror moments in the books. About the best I can think of is Ishamael's weird fixation with things like faces twisting in the stones of his dreamshard's fireplace. Which I wouldn't have thought of as body horror, but again, I can't think of any other examples. I guess just speeding through the books the once after not reading any of them beyond the first 8 or 9 20 years ago has left large sections of it blurred together and blanked out of my head. silvergoose posted:I mean we're gonna see how Egwene's captivity goes next season, one must expect. Yeah, after I finished The Great Hunt again a few months ago I made a post about the Seanchan in the "first time read-through thread" about how hosed up I found the a'dam and Seanchan in general when I don't remember having much reaction to them when I read the book as a kid. Not just Egwene asking Min to remember her name, but Bayle talking to Nynaeve about how he saw one Aes Sedai screaming for help from a Damane after being captured because the Damane who had captured her had been her friend or Egwene defaulting to using another woman's "pet" name instead of her real one because she's starting to become indoctrinated despite herself. There is some really horrific poo poo around the Seanchan a'dam if they actually lean into it. When they showed up at the end of season one they seemed to have ball gags instead of leashes, which I find less horrific as a symbol of servitude for a few reasons (both because it just looks sillier and because slaves who can speak but learn not to out of fear is just more horrific than slaves who can't talk at all), but if I recall, Rafe talked about not remembering any people in gags at all in a "we've changed this" way during an AMA about season 2 or something, so maybe they'll have leashes instead of gags when we see them properly. tsob fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Sep 7, 2022 |
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Sep 7, 2022 14:28
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Johnny Joestar posted:some of the scariest poo poo in the series, to me, doesn't even involve gore. a lot of it tends to involve women characters as well, which is probably why my brain empathizes with it so much. And some of the early book stuff is about how creepy the DO's creatures are. Fades are way more creepy in the books than in the show (at least until the main characters start cutting them down with ease a few books in). Dragkhar could be done pretty creepily too. tsob posted:Is there much in the way of body horror in the series? I only finished a read of it a few months ago and I'm struggling to think of any body horror moments in the books. About the best I can think of is Ishamael's weird fixation with things like faces twisting in the stones of his dreamshard's fireplace. Which I wouldn't have thought of as body horror, but again, I can't think of any other examples. I guess just speeding through the books the once after not reading any of them beyond the first 8 or 9 20 years ago has left large sections of it blurred together and blanked out of my head. Grundulum posted:Since Wheel of Time came out, it seems like visual media have gotten more violent. Saving Private Ryan, various HBO properties, the Saw franchise (and other similar films). Would the body horror of the books still land as strongly to a modern viewer? Or would it just feel like Amazon trying to parrot Game of Thrones, and either failing to top the violence or going extra gratuitous to make sure the first thing doesn’t happen?
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Sep 7, 2022 16:43
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Hey, if TDO won and remade/ broke the pattern wouldn't it also affect the past so since it hasn't, you can conclude it never will? I haven't read AMOL in a while, so maybe I'm misremembering how that goes.
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Sep 8, 2022 00:50
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cheesetriangles posted:Hey, if TDO won and remade/ broke the pattern wouldn't it also affect the past so since it hasn't, you can conclude it never will? That's the flipside of Elan's nihilism, yeah.
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Sep 8, 2022 01:07
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tsob posted:I don't know; I think you could theoretically get a good episode of content by building up the horror elements of the first few chapters with the Myrrdral stalking the village boys and Rand having to haul Tam's failing body through the woods while evading packs of Trollocs. I understand why they didn't, especially when Rand isn't the main POV character for the season anymore to a large degree, and don't even mind it really, but I do think it's possible to mine the first few chapters for drama and suspense that could hook viewers regardless. Man this sounds really good. What I wouldn't give for some more slow paced television, as it is I'm just having to watch old shows like TNG instead... The wonders a full proper seaso can do.
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Sep 8, 2022 08:22
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His Divine Shadow posted:Man this sounds really good. What I wouldn't give for some more slow paced television, as it is I'm just having to watch old shows like TNG instead... The wonders a full proper seaso can do. I pine for the days of 26 episode seasons, but I think they are dead forever.
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Sep 8, 2022 09:38
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tsob posted:Is there much in the way of body horror in the series? I only finished a read of it a few months ago and I'm struggling to think of any body horror moments in the books. Well just off the top of my head there's the previously mentioned bit where Lanfear removes the entire skin of a guy, and Dumai's wells where thousands of people are just straight up exploded and the dead and gore start to literally pile up. Anyone nicked with the ruby-hilted dagger quickly inflates and blackens in a way horrific enough to faze even seasoned soldiers like Ingtar. The messenger Sammael sent to Rand just starts bleeding through his skin and convulsing violently when their discussion is over. Numerous people are cut in half by gateways which always sounded pretty horrific to me. Rahvin has most of his skin melted off by Nynaeve before Rand Balefires him. A few of the Shaido Wise Ones dismember one of their own with the power. I remember Sevanna being surprised there could be so much blood in a person. I'm sure there's many many more, probably hundreds of horrifically violent deaths in every battle that contains channelers that only get a single sentence so rarely form lasting impressions. I've always felt Jordan has a way of kind of glossing over these sorts of scenes which make them less horrifying than they would be if they were filmed or dwelled upon so I'm not really sure how to adapt those and have the same 'feel' but then I don't think the show has ever really captured the feel of the books so who knows how they'll approach it.
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Sep 8, 2022 16:04
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Spek posted:I've always felt Jordan has a way of kind of glossing over these sorts of scenes which make them less horrifying than they would be if they were filmed or dwelled upon so I'm not really sure how to adapt those and have the same 'feel' but then I don't think the show has ever really captured the feel of the books so who knows how they'll approach it. I guess I wouldn't have thought of any of that as body horror either, and confined that more to a twisting of the human body into nightmarish proportions or positions or something, but really, there's no reason to hold such a narrow definition and I'm not honestly sure why I did in the first place. I'm not a fan of horror in general, so it was probably just a lingering impression I got second hand from other people's discussion over the years. Including grisly deaths and waht not seems fitting now that you're mentioning those examples, and the Lanfear one fits either way along with a few others. That said, if they wanted that feel the most appropriate way I can think of is to film those things but not have them be the focus of a scene i.e. they're happening in the periphery or slightly blurred and out of focus or something, as if the "person" seeing them (i.e. the camera) isn't really looking at, or at least registering them. It's obvious Perrin, Loial and even some of Aiel are disgusted by the use of Saidin at Dumai's Well now that you mention it, but because Rand isn't really seeing it, we don't and so even if you have to focus on it from Perrin's point of view during his scenes, you could have it happen in quick cuts that shift off screen or out of focus to imply that he's deliberately choosing not to look at these things for instance. Lanfear skinning Hadnan Kadere happens off-screen and we just see her standing in the center of Hadnan's exploded caravan holding his bloody corpse, but Rand is so focused on everything else happening that you could get the same approximate effect by having it only show that for a second (or less) before moving on, with Lanfear dropping it and no-one addressing it because it's just not important compared to everything else happening. tsob fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Sep 8, 2022 |
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Sep 8, 2022 19:29
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If you look at it from a slight angle, EotW is basically a horror novel. Or perhaps a bunch of horror short stories jammed together. The later books don't really share the same feeling, so you probably don't want to lean into it too hard if you're planning on adapting the whole thing, but an EotW-only series that does would be pretty rad I think.
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Sep 9, 2022 01:20
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tsob posted:I guess I wouldn't have thought of any of that as body horror either, and confined that more to a twisting of the human body into nightmarish proportions or positions or something, but really, there's no reason to hold such a narrow definition and I'm not honestly sure why I did in the first place. I'm not a fan of horror in general, so it was probably just a lingering impression I got second hand from other people's discussion over the years. Including grisly deaths and waht not seems fitting now that you're mentioning those examples, and the Lanfear one fits either way along with a few others. I think most of the difference is that there's disturbing things that happen, but the book USUALLY doesn't revel or spend extensive time on them. It's more often a blink and you'll miss it moment, like the mentioned bit with Lanfear and Kadere. It also makes the few times that the book does spend the time on it hit harder- The scene with Semirhage pondering her way through torturing Cabriana to get information for Aran'gar's salidar cover for example.
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Sep 9, 2022 14:15
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Johnny Joestar posted:some of the scariest poo poo in the series, to me, doesn't even involve gore. "Rolling ring of earth and fire" absolutely involves a hell of a lot of gore.
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Sep 9, 2022 20:13
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It's not gorey, or even particularly scary but the various motivations/punishments the Aiel and the Atha'an Miere use could make for interesting scenes too. The Atha'an Miere ones especially, since those are more about pain rather than the pointlessness of Aiel ones. Not just wondering how Amazon will film them, since a lot of them involve nudity, which I presume they'll just skip over and have the characters do it in small clothes or normal outfits. The idea of hanging from rigging upside is pretty awful though, as is the Aiel punishment for Hadnan's darkfriend lover who kept trying to seduce Rand and ended up stripped, whipped, shaved bald etc. The show could lean into those scenes and probably get some really harrowing stuff there if they wanted, or if it's more akin to the books just have some weird but somewhat funny scenes (at least for some of them) that kind of gloss over the awfulness of what's happening.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:03
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I suspect they barely show any of that stuff at all
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Sep 10, 2022 09:14
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bio347 posted:If you look at it from a slight angle, EotW is basically a horror novel. Or perhaps a bunch of horror short stories jammed together. The later books don't really share the same feeling, so you probably don't want to lean into it too hard if you're planning on adapting the whole thing, but an EotW-only series that does would be pretty rad I think. Oh, Jordan managed to stealthily insert horror later, too. Like the experiences in the Great Hunt, with the Myrddraal nailed to a door, or the fly horror sequence. That one always makes me shudder. Darth Rand trying to evil Tuon into submission was also extremely creepy.
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Sep 10, 2022 11:55
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Libluini posted:Oh, Jordan managed to stealthily insert horror later, too. Like the experiences in the Great Hunt, with the Myrddraal nailed to a door, or the fly horror sequence. That one always makes me shudder. Speaking of The Great Hunt, basically any of Padan Fain's scenes in that book are going to be fodder for horror if you want it. Or his scenes in any of the books really. Nor just nailing a Myrrdral to a door, but torturing people for kicks in The Shadow Rising (I vaguely recall it was a Myrrdral he tortures there, but maybe it was a Whitecloak instead), or him calling Mashadar to attack Rand when he's meeting Ciarhienin nobles etc. You could also mine the scene of Rand sneaking into the Trolloc camp in The Great Hunt for some horror by showing what their camp is like, since it's one of the few times in the books a character actually sees one. A lot of Seanchan stuff there has good horror potential too. The a'dam stuff is the most obvious way of exploiting that, but you also have slave servants so devoted to their way of life that they immediately commit suicide when their master dies; which could definitely be played as horrifying. Any scene with Rand in The Dragon Reborn has good horror potential too, since he's losing his drat mind at that point and has no-one around to reign him in. Not to mention the Aes Sedai torturing him in Lord of Choas, or really any scene where he's interacting with Lews Therin. You could also play up smaller things like that one Aiel (was it a maiden?) falling off the edge of Rand's skimming platform at one point, since it's implied they'll basically fall forever if they do. The book doesn't dwell on it, but if you actually showed them then you could certainly create some good horror off that. I always thought showing the final hours or days of that person (or anyone in that situation) could make for a really good short story, as they initially panic, then accept their situation in hopelessness, exploring their final thoughts etc. Colavaere's downfall could be played fairly straight like in the books, or the show could emphasis her mental state as everything is taken from her, and what drives her to commit suicide rather than accept being a farmer with no power, titles, riches and so on as another example of small scenes with horror potential.
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Sep 10, 2022 14:08
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tsob posted:Speaking of The Great Hunt, basically any of Padan Fain's scenes in that book are going to be fodder for horror if you want it. Or his scenes in any of the books really. Nor just nailing a Myrrdral to a door, but torturing people for kicks in The Shadow Rising (I vaguely recall it was a Myrrdral he tortures there, but maybe it was a Whitecloak instead), or him calling Mashadar to attack Rand when he's meeting Ciarhienin nobles etc. You could also mine the scene of Rand sneaking into the Trolloc camp in The Great Hunt for some horror by showing what their camp is like, since it's one of the few times in the books a character actually sees one. A lot of Seanchan stuff there has good horror potential too. The a'dam stuff is the most obvious way of exploiting that, but you also have slave servants so devoted to their way of life that they immediately commit suicide when their master dies; which could definitely be played as horrifying. Any scene with Rand in The Dragon Reborn has good horror potential too, since he's losing his drat mind at that point and has no-one around to reign him in. Not to mention the Aes Sedai torturing him in Lord of Choas, or really any scene where he's interacting with Lews Therin. Not just the Trolloc camp itself, the way Rand suddenly goes nuts and starts chopping up Trollocs in a disjointed battle sequence is also prime horror, if done by the right director.
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Sep 10, 2022 18:40
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The whole portal stone alternate world they travel to could be a great creepy ambience if done right, especially with Hurin smelling almost-realtime violence in some places they pass. Weird distances, no life, flat water, etc.
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Sep 10, 2022 19:02
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The whole escape from the two rivers really was prime horror material if handled correctly. Sad we'll never get to see it.
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Sep 10, 2022 19:40
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Libluini posted:Oh, Jordan managed to stealthily insert horror later, too. Like the experiences in the Great Hunt, with the Myrddraal nailed to a door, or the fly horror sequence. That one always makes me shudder.
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Sep 10, 2022 22:15
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Pleads posted:The whole portal stone alternate world they travel to could be a great creepy ambience if done right, especially with Hurin smelling almost-realtime violence in some places they pass. Weird distances, no life, flat water, etc. I completely blanked on that entire portion of the book, but yeah there's certainly potential there. You've reminded me that there was also the "flickers" chapter in that section, where Rand experiences what his life could be if he made other choices; most of which end in misery or destruction. Which ends with Matt practically crying because he and everyone else went through the same thing, and Matt presumably betrayed Rand in some of those alternate lives from his dialogue if I recall. There's some good material there and in the Aes Sedai tests, which are basically psychological torture anyway, in order to ensure someone won't crack under pressure.
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Sep 11, 2022 02:10
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tsob posted:I completely blanked on that entire portion of the book, but yeah there's certainly potential there. You've reminded me that there was also the "flickers" chapter in that section, where Rand experiences what his life could be if he made other choices; most of which end in misery or destruction. Which ends with Matt practically crying because he and everyone else went through the same thing, and Matt presumably betrayed Rand in some of those alternate lives from his dialogue if I recall. There's some good material there and in the Aes Sedai tests, which are basically psychological torture anyway, in order to ensure someone won't crack under pressure. I like to think Mat betrayed him in every life but this one. This is the correct thread after all
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Sep 11, 2022 02:23
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:I like to think Mat betrayed him in every life but this one. This is the correct thread after all Mat was definitely judas in past lives
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Sep 11, 2022 03:42
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mod edit: moved this post over here from the spoiler thread since it's about book 10+mercenarynuker posted:I still chuckle at the end of book 11 into the literal first pages of book 12. It is a very clear delineation between Jordan's works and Sanderson's tsob posted:
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Sep 14, 2022 13:05
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I got 5 bucks that says that is one of the bits that Jordan wrote.
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Sep 14, 2022 14:57
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It's very difficult to know which parts Jordan wrote and which Sanderson because they left in relatively unpolished Jordan bits that were "close to final" but which still are a bit raw. So some Jordan bits feel unpolished and some Sanderson bits don't.
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Sep 14, 2022 15:10
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's very difficult to know which parts Jordan wrote and which Sanderson because they left in relatively unpolished Jordan bits that were "close to final" but which still are a bit raw. So some Jordan bits feel unpolished and some Sanderson bits don't. Hence my bet. People judge the writing to be bad, so they attribute it to Sanderson. But it's actually just less edited and polished and is Jordan's.
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Sep 14, 2022 16:38
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Thinking about the part where the horn is blown and a bunch of wolves show up and heck yes 
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Sep 14, 2022 16:43
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Looks like NYCC is our next opportunity for some significant season 2 news. https://twitter.com/wottvseries/status/1570080338608803841?s=46&t=JEdf8HlHXqTtOhiisHHx7w
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Sep 14, 2022 17:09
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As another post prompted by the "First Time Read Through" thread, someone there mentioned Rahvin and Be'lal being unable to be resurrected since they died by balefire (along with Belthamel/Aran'gar and Semirhage) and it's made me think about Forsaken in other turnings of the wheel. There were 13 who were bound to the Dark One's prison this turning, and presumably dozens or hundreds of other, less powerful Forsaken prior to that during the War of Power, but Ishamael also seems like he's a persistent presence in the war between light and shadow; a dark counterpart to the Dragon. Or maybe that's Demandred, seeing as how he fulfilled the prophecies of the Wyld. Ishamael seems more likely as the Dark One's champion though, seeing as how (a) he's Nae'blis, (b) he's the only one of the Forsaken who seems to be devoted to the Dark One for it's own sake and not for the sake of their own power, (c) there's mention in some dark prophecies he talks about of a "Lord of the Evening" that's probably him and (d) ultimately, the Wyld prophecies are Sharan and not dark prophecies. Demandred was the one they foresaw, but they weren't actually worshipping the Dark One by conscious choice or anything. Regardless, it suggests one or more Forsaken are constantly recycled into the pattern with each turning of the Wheel, but that at least a couple of them in every turning are likely to be new devotees of the Dark One, killed by balefire and not recycled anymore. It's unlikely the Dark One will recycle Asmodean's soul in a future turning either, for that matter. I don't really have a question, or even, ultimately, a point; I just thought it was an interesting thing to think about. It does make me wish again we'd gotten more hints at or information on prior turnings of the Wheel. As is, I'm not sure we get any as such. I originally thought Birgitte had memories from other turnings, which she may have had while in Tel'aran'rhiod, but her memories while thrust out in the real world in the story seem to be limited to the last 2,000 or so years since the Trolloc Wars. As are Mats. There are probably a few geographical features or artifacts in the museum at Tanchico that predate the current turning of the Wheel (Egwene thinks the Mercedes Benz badge in the museum is even older than the fossilized bones there, one of which could be a dinosaur; which would imply dinosaurs came again after contemporary times i.e. another turning - it may just not be a dinosaur though, since it's quite a generic description of "a toothy lizard ten paces long"), but about the only other thing I can think of that might be somewhat unique to this turning of the Wheel, or at least not happen in every turning, is Perrin and Elyas' ability to speak to wolves; since the wolves think of it as an ancient thing and it was held as ancient even during the Age of Legends since the Green Man was shocked that Perrin was a Wolfbrother and thinks it's a sign that the "old times" have come again. Jordan also apparently stated that it's not something that happens in every age. "Robert Jordan posted:
The wolves thinking of it as ancient specifically makes me think it's not something that happens in every turning, not just every Age, because they remember each life they've lived but barely know or care about time itself so even them realizing that something is ancient suggests it's real loving old. The fact the Green Man knows about it though means maybe the wolf conception of ancient isn't quite that old. Either way, it's fun to think about how similar or different things could be in new turnings of the Wheel, when there are so many people who had to contribute in every tiny ways over thousands of years to the current story, and lots of different powers at play across those people; even if channeling was by far the most common and important. tsob fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Sep 14, 2022 |
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Sep 14, 2022 17:17
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You can still be reborn if you die to balefire just the dark one can't instantly resurrect them. You aren't gone forever.
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Sep 14, 2022 17:28
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cheesetriangles posted:You can still be reborn if you die to balefire just the dark one can't instantly resurrect them. You aren't gone forever. I thought the entire point of balefire is that it burns you out of the pattern forever; that the reason it's so dangerous is because it's causing actual damage to the Pattern, and using it too much can damage the Pattern to the point it can't work around it or recover from those lost threads? tsob fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Sep 14, 2022 |
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Sep 14, 2022 17:31
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