(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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Falstaff posted:c rises = crises if this witticism is yours, then congratulations are in order
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Sep 9, 2022 17:31
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Aeolius posted:if this witticism is yours, then congratulations are in order Thank you; I added that line at the last minute while proofreading and I'd realized it was, y'know, right there.
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Sep 9, 2022 17:47
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Falstaff posted:And that’s it! This wasn’t as thorough as I’d initially hoped, but as I said at the beginning I ran out of time while doing my read-through. As such, I left out a bunch of stuff from vol 3 (my copy of Das Kapital is only the first two volumes, and I have a tough time reading pdfs, though I did use a pdf to review some concepts – like the tendency of the rate of profit to fall – that are dealt with mostly in vol 3.) If you’re interested in delving deeper yourself but don’t feel up to tackling the text on your lonesome, David Harvey’s lecture series is quite well-regarded. Thanks for all these posts, they have been both useful and entertaining.
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Sep 9, 2022 21:17
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Sunny Side Up posted:I gotta dig up the quotes but it’s abstract labor iirc thx mr Marx ran across the relevant section of capital today, the cost of education falls under reproduction of labor, which is fine. I'd still contend that schools are capital property and deserve mention when listing examples of means of production. marx, capital posted:Hence the sum of the means of subsistence necessary for the production of labour-power must include the means necessary for the labourer’s substitutes, i.e., his children, in order that this race of peculiar commodity-owners may perpetuate its appearance in the market. the line prior marx, capital posted:Labour-power, however, becomes a reality only by its exercise; it sets itself in action only by working. But thereby a definite quantity of human muscle, nerve, brain, &c., is wasted, and these require to be restored. so yeah, there's no contest that brain power is a thing and a thing that is expended on work marx, grundrisse posted:On one side, historic processes are presupposed which place a mass of individuals in a nation etc. in the position, if not at first of real free workers, nevertheless of such who are so (non roman characters), whose only property is their labour capacity and the possibility of exchanging it for values then present; individuals who confront all objective conditions of production as alien property, as their own not-property, but at the same time as values, as exchangeable, hence appropriable to a certain degree through living labour. Such historic processes of dissolution are also the dissolution of the bondage relations which fetter the worker to land and soil and to the lord of land and soil; but which factually presuppose his ownership of the necessaries of life — this is in truth the process of his release from the earth; dissolution of the landed property relations, which constituted him as a yeoman, as a free, working small landowner or tenant (colonus), a free peasant*; dissolution of the guild relations which presuppose his ownership of the instrument of labour, and which presuppose labour itself as a craftsmanlike, specific skill, as property (not merely as the source of property); likewise dissolution of the client-relations in the various forms in which not-proprietors appear in the retinue of their lord as co-consumers of the surplus product and wear the livery of their master as an equivalent, participate in his feuds, perform personal services, imaginary or real etc. It will be seen on closer inspection that all these processes of dissolution mean the dissolution of relations of production in which: use value pre- dominates, production for direct consumption; in which exchange value and its production presupposes the predominance of the other form; and hence that, in all these relations, payments in kind and services in kind predominate over payment in money and money-services. But this only by the way. It will likewise be found on closer observation that all the dissolved relations were possible only with a definite degree of development of the material (and hence also the intellectual) forces of production. breaking up the guilds was capital extracting knowledge and mother fuckin' techne from the people, like oil from a well, and then setting itself up as gatekeeper of who gets to know what
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Sep 10, 2022 06:05
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Don't know where else to post about this, but the CPUSA hosted a virtual international conference today. I decided to tune in and it was kinda cool to see that they got spokespeople, videos, or written statements from the the communist parties in China, Vietnam, Cuba, Swaziland, Portugal, Iraq, Laos, Czech republic, Catalonia, and Cyprus. If you're an american communist we're basically all LARPers at this point, but it was nice hearing from more extant and established movements.
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Sep 10, 2022 23:00
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unwantedplatypus posted:Don't know where else to post about this, but the CPUSA hosted a virtual international conference today. I decided to tune in and it was kinda cool to see that they got spokespeople, videos, or written statements from the the communist parties in China, Vietnam, Cuba, Swaziland, Portugal, Iraq, Laos, Czech republic, Catalonia, and Cyprus. If you're an american communist we're basically all LARPers at this point, but it was nice hearing from more extant and established movements. CPUSA Web Site posted:Get Out the Vote! ...aaaand that's... all. vote for ...who? democrats? they want me to vote for democrats. they must be telling me to vote for democrats. but they won't SAY it.
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Sep 10, 2022 23:20
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yeah i thought the international expressions of solidarity were pretty good. combined with joe sims talking about running candidates on the cpusa line instead of just pushing democrats, the org sounds like it might have some new life in it. i dont know all the details, but i've heard that there was a big internal backlash from the younger wing of the org after they endorsed biden. guess we'll see how it goes tomorrow
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Sep 10, 2022 23:22
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:...aaaand that's... all. vote for ...who? democrats? they want me to vote for democrats. they must be telling me to vote for democrats. but they won't SAY it. That's the cpusa for you, stuck in the "popular front" model since 1933
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Sep 10, 2022 23:29
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:...aaaand that's... all. vote for ...who? democrats? they want me to vote for democrats. they must be telling me to vote for democrats. but they won't SAY it. That's kind of a not generous interpretation of what he was saying. Mr. Lobe posted:That's the cpusa for you, stuck in the "popular front" model since 1933 tbf, "Democrats are the lesser danger and we should keep Republicans out of power at all costs" is imo the correct line. The issue is whether or not that's used as an excuse not to take other actions.
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Sep 10, 2022 23:58
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croup coughfield posted:yeah i thought the international expressions of solidarity were pretty good. combined with joe sims talking about running candidates on the cpusa line instead of just pushing democrats, the org sounds like it might have some new life in it. i dont know all the details, but i've heard that there was a big internal backlash from the younger wing of the org after they endorsed biden. guess we'll see how it goes tomorrow From some cursory reading, it seems that after 2008 the YCL was growing and was the more radical part of the party. Too radical for the party apparently, The YCL was abolished in 2015, but the chair of CPUSA responsible was run out in 2016, and YCL was re-established in 2020. That guy from 2016 is now a registered democrat. There's now two co-chairs rather than one chair.
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Sep 11, 2022 00:03
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Speaking from personal experience, Marxist parties in the US would rather implode and die than reform in any way
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Sep 11, 2022 00:17
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unwantedplatypus posted:That's kind of a not generous interpretation of what he was saying. Spending resources in any way towards democrat party electoralism is such a colossal waste of a communist's time and energy I don't even know where to begin describing how disappointed I am to see this line of reasoning here. Shame on you.
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Sep 11, 2022 00:20
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Mr. Lobe posted:Spending resources in any way towards democrat party electoralism is such a colossal waste of a communist's time and energy I don't even know where to begin describing how disappointed I am to see this line of reasoning here. Yes, that's definitely what I was saying. You got me, I'm a big 'ole democrat lover who thinks communists should be an arm of the Democratic Party. Glad we have you around to make sure we don't dip into ideological slovenliness
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Sep 11, 2022 00:22
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Did you go and see the clip we're talking about or are you basing your reaction off of what you assumed Sims said; based off of the discussion in this thread?
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Sep 11, 2022 00:27
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unwantedplatypus posted:Did you go and see the clip we're talking about or are you basing your reaction off of what you assumed Sims said; based off of the discussion in this thread? https://www.cpusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/PAC-popularhandoutFINA2COLSL7.223-1.pdf yadda yadda yadda go vote [for democrats]
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Sep 11, 2022 00:29
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The actual clip: https://youtu.be/qvUSAw3dqKE?t=13608Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:https://www.cpusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/PAC-popularhandoutFINA2COLSL7.223-1.pdf Wow, they have pamphlets telling people to vote! What liberal revisionism! (They have lots of different types of pamphlets)
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Sep 11, 2022 00:33
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it's on their front page. at the top.
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Sep 11, 2022 01:00
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:it's on their front page. at the top. That is pretty succ, still not enough to make me write them off from consideration. edit: Also, it's one part of their rotating banner. unwantedplatypus has issued a correction as of 01:13 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 01:08
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unwantedplatypus posted:The actual clip: https://youtu.be/qvUSAw3dqKE?t=13608 Did you follow them ahead of the 2020 election?
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Sep 11, 2022 01:08
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Sunny Side Up posted:Did you follow them ahead of the 2020 election? No, I know they endorsed Biden; supposedly they've been going through some changes in the years since.
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Sep 11, 2022 01:11
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I recently joined CPUSA because I heard they have a good virtual book club (Philly chapter), but timing hasn’t worked out for me to participate yet unfortunately. If you want some good history, “Red, Black, and White,” that Frank Chapman book (“ML perspectives…” Maybe?), and relevant portions of People’s History, Settlers, etc are helpful
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Sep 11, 2022 01:11
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unwantedplatypus posted:Yes, that's definitely what I was saying. You got me, I'm a big 'ole democrat lover who thinks communists should be an arm of the Democratic Party. Glad we have you around to make sure we don't dip into ideological slovenliness what else could you mean by “at all costs” ?
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Sep 11, 2022 01:15
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fart simpson posted:what else could you mean by “at all costs” ? By all effective methods, even at personal risk
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Sep 11, 2022 01:18
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based on conversations ive had with friends in cpusa, it always seemed like a misreading of lenin to me. in state and revolution i dont think lenin's talking about supporting liberals like the democrats. hes talking about running candidates and engaging in electoral policies for a socialist party specifically imo regardless theres a lot of boomers in the org who came on as opposition to the vietnam war only and they carry with them a lot of liberal inertia. its easy to convince people of dumb poo poo if you have enough people to nod along. on top of that, as conditions deteriorate, i suspect more people are feeling more desperate to act, and will just go with whatever seems like a short-term win. "we need wins to build momentum," they will say etc. so they'll scope projects that feel less prone to failure and thats usually canvassing and donations or charity disguised as mutual aid and so on. anyway its interesting to me to explore the motivations of these things. also lmfao "shame on you" put on your shawl grandma
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Sep 11, 2022 03:35
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Yeah I don't think for a second that Lenin ever supported voting for bourgeois parties like the democrats, his point was to vote for a socialist party and then use it to show how bourgeois democracy is a complete sham that will never relinquish power to the masses no matter how they vote.
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Sep 11, 2022 04:47
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I think the extent of support for bourgeois parties should be "If you're going to vote here's who you should probably vote for". No more time or energy than that dedicated to it.
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Sep 11, 2022 04:55
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Lenin could never imagine the hell that is modern American politics
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Sep 11, 2022 05:00
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unwantedplatypus posted:tbf, "Democrats are the lesser danger and we should keep Republicans out of power at all costs" is imo the correct line. D&d do be like that, it's true
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Sep 11, 2022 05:01
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Even anarchists managed to grasp the very simple principle that if you're going to vote at all, vote for a socialist. And I don't think the Democrats are that, even if you're going to vote.
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Sep 11, 2022 05:05
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gradenko_2000 posted:Even anarchists managed to grasp the very simple principle that if you're going to vote at all, vote for a socialist. Yeah when I say socialist I don't mean "pathetic DSA stooge working for the bourgeois democrats", I mean an actual socialist as lenin would have used the word.
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Sep 11, 2022 05:20
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Voting isn't a sin guys. Casting a ballot for a dem isn't a morally corrupting act. Electioneering for bourgeois politics is a waste of time; but if your position is actively that people shouldn't vote; well that's pretty stupid. Why not? Use every lever you have to push society in the direction you'd prefer.
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Sep 11, 2022 06:07
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unwantedplatypus posted:Voting isn't a sin guys. Casting a ballot for a dem isn't a morally corrupting act. Electioneering for bourgeois politics is a waste of time; but if your position is actively that people shouldn't vote; well that's pretty stupid. Why not? Use every lever you have to push society in the direction you'd prefer. syq
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Sep 11, 2022 06:16
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local level stuff like school board and city council seats and ballot initiatives matter. even state level stuff kinda matters. keeping weirdo fundamentalists off of school boards and keeping realtors away from everything is active harm reduction
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Sep 11, 2022 06:38
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unwantedplatypus posted:Voting isn't a sin guys. Casting a ballot for a dem isn't a morally corrupting act. Electioneering for bourgeois politics is a waste of time; but if your position is actively that people shouldn't vote; well that's pretty stupid. Why not? Use every lever you have to push society in the direction you'd prefer. The democrats are not the direction anyone in this thread should want society to be pushed in.
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Sep 11, 2022 06:51
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unwantedplatypus posted:Voting isn't a sin guys. Casting a ballot for a dem isn't a morally corrupting act. Electioneering for bourgeois politics is a waste of time; but if your position is actively that people shouldn't vote; well that's pretty stupid. Why not? Use every lever you have to push society in the direction you'd prefer. You're pushing society further in the direction of a bourgeois dictatorship when you legitimize their rule by voting for them. If you choose to vote it should be for a real socialist (communist) party, not a bourgeois party using socialist language to legitimize their own rule.
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Sep 11, 2022 06:56
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Some of you are so incredibly dishonest. You refuse to engage with what I say so you exaggerate and mock. And why did all of this start? Because I brought up a recent event relevant to the thread topic; and didn't respond with the appropriate amount of cynicism.
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Sep 11, 2022 07:05
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any elected democrat is going to push the same agenda as an elected republican. this is true at all levels. when you vote for democrats, you are saying to the party that you're willing to accept that agenda provided they make it sound more palatable. so why wouldnt they keep running those kinds of candidates? you keep voting for them.
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Sep 11, 2022 07:05
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Your vote or lack thereof has pretty much no effect on the perceived legitimacy of the government. You aren't a bad communist for casting a ballot. If you disagree with that statement your head is in your rear end
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Sep 11, 2022 07:07
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unwantedplatypus posted:Your vote or lack thereof has pretty much no effect on the perceived legitimacy of the government. im not talking about the government. im talking about the party. e: waving at the guy waving to someone behind me croup coughfield has issued a correction as of 07:12 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 07:09
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croup coughfield posted:im not talking about the government. im talking about the party. Its just as nonsensical when applied to the party, it's well established that dem voters have little influence on the politicians' positions. The dems move right either way, that's their thing. unwantedplatypus has issued a correction as of 07:16 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 07:12
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