(Thread IKs:
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unwantedplatypus posted:Its just as nonsensical when applied to the party The party only exists because people vote for it, you legitimize a bourgeois party by voting for it. Your vote should go to a proper working class communist party, not to a bourgeois one. The longer the democrats exist the more momentum they can take and dissipate from worthwhile parties who attempt to represent the working class rather than the bourgeoisie.
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Sep 11, 2022 07:16
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Borosilicate posted:The party only exists because people vote for it, you legitimize a bourgeois party by voting for it. The party exists because the bourgeoisie fund it. Your vote has no effect on that. How does your vote legitimize these parties? They are legitimized because, again, they are backed by the bourgeoisie through a variety of avenues. What is the causative relation between communists casting a strategic vote when they are weak, and the democratic party gaining legitimacy. unwantedplatypus has issued a correction as of 07:21 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 07:19
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unwantedplatypus posted:Its just as nonsensical when applied to the party on the face of it, the party needs votes to win races. technically they dont need to win for the bourgeoisie to continue to push that class' agenda. however, they do need wins to convince large donors they're worth the investment. a popular electoral strategy in america is to cultivate voting against things rather than for them, which is basically what you're talking about, and its kept the dems afloat for decades. looking at our current political landscape, i havent found it to be a particularly effective strategy for improving conditions.
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Sep 11, 2022 07:20
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croup coughfield posted:i havent found it to be a particularly effective strategy for improving conditions. Quote the post where I say voting is a particularly effective strategy. My entire point, is exactly this thread's reaction. I say voting is okay, acceptable even. I don't say its great, I don't say its effective, and I don't say we should organize around it. But OF COURSE, people in this thread start pissing blood because saying anything not negative about voting means you want to kiss the democratic party on the lips and mouth. And why are we talking about this? Because I wanted to discuss an event that a US communist org recently hosted and immediately it was derailed to bitch and moan about ~voting~ unwantedplatypus has issued a correction as of 07:26 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 07:22
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unwantedplatypus posted:Quote the post where I say voting is a particularly effective strategy so why do it at all then, unless there's something to vote for?
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Sep 11, 2022 07:23
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You're making the mistake of assuming that the bourgeoisie act as a connected coalition of conspiracists rather than acting through shared class-interests that allow them to seize and maintain power through common interests and goals. If nobody voted for the democrats then their funding would dry up, their donations would go to the parties that recieve votes and work in their interests. The strength of capitalism is that it doesn't require a united front of conspirators and autocrats to function behind the scenes, it is able to maintain itself through social and political structures that have been in place for centuries, as well as constantly adding new structures of survielance and consent manufacturing, that make it impossible to dismantle just by voting someone out or assassinating a couple guys. You have to build and maintain class consciousness among the working class, there's no other way to fight capitalism that has worked historically.
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Sep 11, 2022 07:26
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Borosilicate posted:You're making the mistake of assuming that the bourgeoisie act as a connected coalition of conspiracists I am not doing that. Quote the post where I do that croup coughfield posted:so why do it at all then, unless there's something to vote for? Because its low investment, you literally stand in a line and press some buttons. unwantedplatypus has issued a correction as of 07:30 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 07:27
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unwantedplatypus posted:I am not doing that How else would the bourgeois come together and fund a party that nobody votes for? Unless you believe that the capitalist class would give billions of dollars in bribe money to a party with no votes and no power then the thing you said in this post makes no sense: unwantedplatypus posted:The party exists because the bourgeoisie fund it. Your vote has no effect on that.
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Sep 11, 2022 07:30
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Borosilicate posted:How else would the bourgeois come together and fund a party that nobody votes for? Unless you believe that the capitalist class would give billions of dollars in bribe money to a party with no votes and no power then the thing you said in this post makes no sense: People vote for the party because the bourgeoisie fund it. The dominant ideology of a society is the ideology of the ruling class. We have an extremely extensive and far-reaching bourgeois-controlled media apparatus for both the dems and repubs whose job it is to make working class people care about bourgeois divisions. Elections in bourgeois democracies are based primarily upon funding. Lesser-funded candidates winning are the exception. The democratic party exists because of bourgeois funding, will continue to exist until bourgeois power is smashed (or until they out-live their usefullness), and will only cease to exist once bourgeois power has been destroyed. Your decision to cast a ballot as a communist has nothing to do with it
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Sep 11, 2022 07:32
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Sure, and as a marxist one has a huge vested interest in educating people away from participating in systems that help to legitimize and enforce bourgeois dictatorship. Nobody's saying that anyone who was tricked into voting for a bourgeois party should be executed or something, but they should be educated to prevent it from happening in the future. Lenin's strategy was to have people vote for a soclialist/communist party and demonstrate how the false democracy of the bourgeois dictatorship does not follow the will of the people no matter what they vote for. His strategy was not "vote for a bourgeois party because it's better than the other brougeois party".
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Sep 11, 2022 07:34
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Borosilicate posted:Nobody's saying that anyone who was tricked into voting for a bourgeois party should be executed or something, but they should be educated to prevent it from happening in the future. Baby-brained bullshit. There's no reason to step in and prevent people from voting. Absolutely nothing to be gained, and you'll lose people in the process. If you get to the point where a socialist party is running candidates, sure then you can enforce some discipline. But that is not the material reality we find ourselves in
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Sep 11, 2022 07:35
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no its not
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Sep 11, 2022 07:36
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unwantedplatypus posted:Baby-brained bullshit Perhaps you can name some historical examples that back up your claim that voting for a bourgeois party can lead to destruction of the dictatorship of the bourgeois? I'm not aware of any but as a marxist there should be some historical materialist backing for your beliefs.
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Sep 11, 2022 07:36
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Borosilicate posted:your claim that voting for a bourgeois party can lead to destruction of the dictatorship of the bourgeois? Quote where I made this claim
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Sep 11, 2022 07:37
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You didn't make it outright but I can quote the post where you said the opposite claim was baby-brained bullshit, which carries a pretty strong implication.
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Sep 11, 2022 07:38
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Borosilicate posted:You didn't make it outright but I can quote the post where you said the opposite claim was baby-brained bullshit, which carries a pretty strong implication. I see, its a claim I made that exists in your head
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Sep 11, 2022 07:40
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croup coughfield posted:no its not Oh but it is. Being weirdly moralistic about actions that have minimal material affect. Making appeals to Lenin's time without an underpinning analysis of the differences and similarities. A desire to construct an easy strawman to tear down because discussion is too hard. Very efficient, well adapted for eucalyptus leaf consumption.
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Sep 11, 2022 07:42
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unwantedplatypus posted:Oh but it is. Being weirdly moralistic about actions that have minimal material affect. Making appeals to Lenin's time without an underpinning analysis of the differences and similarities. A desire to construct an easy strawman to tear down because discussion is too hard. Very efficient, well adapted for eucalyptus leaf consumption. whos being moralistic
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Sep 11, 2022 07:43
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I'm not entirely sure what you're even arguing against. You're upset that we say that voting for a bourgeois party enforces dictatorship of the bourgeios, and that people should be encouraged only to vote for working class communist parties? Even though you've said multiple times that voting for a bourgeios party has no material value and no historical precedent for fighting against the dictatorship of the bougeios? It kinda seems like you're upset about the idea of educating people about historical materialism and class consciousness in general.
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Sep 11, 2022 07:44
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croup coughfield posted:whos being moralistic I use moralistic because people are ascribing metaphysical properties to physical actions in order to justify a proscription against a behavior. In this case the act of voting is being given certain qualities that allow it to affect other conditions it has, in reality, weak connections to.
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Sep 11, 2022 07:45
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Borosilicate posted:I'm not entirely sure what you're even arguing against. I can tell
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Sep 11, 2022 07:46
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I mean we can break it down if it makes it easier. 1) We both agree that voting for a bourgeios party is a worthless action that produces no good for the working class. 2) We both agree that there is no historical precedent to show that voting for a bourgeois party can contribute to the destruction of the dictatorship of the bourgeois 3) We both agree that Lenin wanted people to vote only for working class communist parties to illustrate the false democracy of the dictatorship of the bourgeois, and that this strategy has succeded historically I should hope we both agree that raising class consciousness is a fundamentally important aspect of marxism in general? Do you not believe that class consciousness is necessary for socialist revolution? Class consciousness inherently involves not supporting a bourgeois party, and only supporting the working class through votes or any other political actions.
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Sep 11, 2022 07:53
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Borosilicate posted:I'm not entirely sure what you're even arguing against. You're upset that we say that voting for a bourgeois party enforces dictatorship of the bourgeios, and that people should be encouraged only to vote for working class communist parties?
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Sep 11, 2022 07:57
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unwantedplatypus posted:I use moralistic because people are proscribing metaphysical properties to physical actions in order to justify a proscription against a behavior. In this case the act of voting is being given certain qualities that allow it to affect other conditions it has, in reality, weak connections to. nobody here is trying nor able to prevent you or anyone else from voting. they're giving you their opinion on your ideas because you posted those ideas in a public space. you reacted to that pushback by losing the plot and acting like a catty bitch. i agree there are some terrible posters itt and cspam generally and that shrill poo poo from lobe was cringe. however, this is a shitposting forum, and people are going to post poo poo. you'll need to develop a bit thicker skin imo if you enjoy discussing marxist ideas, because i do not think a marxism thread would survive contact with d&d moderators
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Sep 11, 2022 07:57
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anyway happy 9/11 everybody
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Sep 11, 2022 07:59
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unwantedplatypus seems to be making the classic mistake of assuming thoughts written here, in the c-spam marxism thread, correspond directly and concretely to slogans uttered to uninitiated normal people in polite company if your opening conversational gambit with a stranger is "what lenin meant when he said to participate in bourgeois electoralism was to work to get socialists on the ballot and vote for them, not to vote for the drat democrats. you idiot. you loving moron" then unwantedplatypus' criticism might apply to you. is anyone doing that? let's have a show of hands
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Sep 11, 2022 08:02
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i go down to my local polling station every election and deliver lightning punch combos on anyone with an i voted sticker
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Sep 11, 2022 08:04
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voting should be safe, legal, and rare
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Sep 11, 2022 08:10
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croup coughfield posted:i go down to my local polling station every election and deliver lightning punch combos on anyone with an i voted sticker
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Sep 11, 2022 09:53
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unwantedplatypus posted:Because its low investment, you literally stand in a line and press some buttons. still too rich for my blood
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Sep 11, 2022 11:04
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croup coughfield posted:anyway happy 9/11 everybody same
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Sep 11, 2022 11:06
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croup coughfield posted:anyway happy 9/11 everybody DTA <3 :-)
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Sep 11, 2022 12:30
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croup coughfield posted:nobody here is trying nor able to prevent you or anyone else from voting. they're giving you their opinion on your ideas because you posted those ideas in a public space. you reacted to that pushback by losing the plot and acting like a catty bitch. i agree there are some terrible posters itt and cspam generally and that shrill poo poo from lobe was cringe. however, this is a shitposting forum, and people are going to post poo poo. you'll need to develop a bit thicker skin imo if you enjoy discussing marxist ideas, because i do not think a marxism thread would survive contact with d&d moderators Borosilicate posted:Sure, and as a marxist one has a huge vested interest in educating people away from participating in systems that help to legitimize and enforce bourgeois dictatorship. Nobody's saying that anyone who was tricked into voting for a bourgeois party should be executed or something, but they should be educated to prevent it from happening in the future. And I don't feel any need to develop a thicker skin to fit in with forums culture. The forums culture here is part of why the userbase is older, maler, and full of computer touchers. I do and have discuss marxist ideas when I'm not being dogpiled for caring about things or deviating from thread opinion. This entire "discussion" is because I wanted to talk about a recent CPUSA event and the first post was bitching about them being libs because of their stance on voting. I somewhat defend them, and suddenly we're talking about my supposed opinions on voting and its efficacy rather than the event run by American communists. This is the culture you want me to fit in better to? Nah unwantedplatypus has issued a correction as of 15:28 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 15:18
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The Voice of Labor posted:local level stuff like school board and city council seats and ballot initiatives matter. even state level stuff kinda matters. keeping weirdo fundamentalists off of school boards and keeping realtors away from everything is active harm reduction I'd like to address this particular point in that the earlier assertion I posed, where "if you're going to vote, at least vote for a socialist, which the Democrats are not", still applies like, maybe you don't know what particular ideology your local school board member or city councilman will have, but "keep realtors away from local government" is almost certainly still going to mean avoiding Democrats, and indeed, small local elections can yield victories for avowedly left-wing parties and candidates
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Sep 11, 2022 15:31
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Oh wow, 50 new posts in the Marxism thread. Wonder what they're 
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Sep 11, 2022 15:42
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https://twitter.com/Leigh_Phillips/status/1567694737666363392 lol at posing "the postwar welfare state and social democracy as having their origins in colonial plunder and exploitation in the Global South" as outrageous, incredible, and incorrect
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Sep 11, 2022 16:04
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Eh, I think both are true. It's simultaneously correct that workers in the western world fought bitter, bloody battles for many of the benefits that, despite being whittled away steadily by capital over the years, are still enjoyed by western workers today. It's also true that the those concessions were largely paid for by the riches of ongoing colonialism and theft in the developing world, and it was that plunder that made the bitter pill of greater wages and shorter work-days possible for the bourgeoisie to swallow.
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Sep 11, 2022 16:10
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unwantedplatypus posted:And I don't feel any need to develop a thicker skin to fit in with forums culture. The forums culture here is part of why the userbase is older, maler, and full of computer touchers. I do and have discuss marxist ideas when I'm not being dogpiled for caring about things or deviating from thread opinion. This entire "discussion" is because I wanted to talk about a recent CPUSA event and the first post was bitching about them being libs because of their stance on voting. I somewhat defend them, and suddenly we're talking about my supposed opinions on voting and its efficacy rather than the event run by American communists. This is the culture you want me to fit in better to? Nah I don't really care about the CPUSA mostly but going to bat to defend them from people who's immediate reaction to them is scorn when we're talking about a supposed "communist party" who literally and enthusiastically endorsed loving HRC seems like a dumb waste of a lot of posts Just ignore the shitposting and discuss the conference if that's why you wanted to bring it up because ftr i agree and also think it is cool to have so much international representation present regardless of who hosted it
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Sep 11, 2022 16:15
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unwantedplatypus posted:And I don't feel any need to develop a thicker skin to fit in with forums culture. The forums culture here is part of why the userbase is older, maler, and full of computer touchers. I do and have discuss marxist ideas when I'm not being dogpiled for caring about things or deviating from thread opinion. This entire "discussion" is because I wanted to talk about a recent CPUSA event and the first post was bitching about them being libs because of their stance on voting. I somewhat defend them, and suddenly we're talking about my supposed opinions on voting and its efficacy rather than the event run by American communists. This is the culture you want me to fit in better to? Nah the moment of transition you're complaining about happened the instant you posted this: unwantedplatypus posted:tbf, "Democrats are the lesser danger and we should keep Republicans out of power at all costs" is imo the correct line. you stopped making it about the currents within the organization and made it about your opinion on bourgeois electoralism. now, that's fine, and its good to give your opinions on marxist organizations and analysis in the marxism thread. its often good to give a dissenting opinion, as well; it facilitates discussion and hopefully improves everyone's model through the dialectic. the worst response you can take, imo, is to then get mad that other people are giving their opinion in response to your opinion, that you offered. people are going to react to things you do and say and you dont have any control over which parts. if you want to keep talking about the cpusa conference, thats great. you should! it starts again in a half-hour. but people are gonna have thoughts on the content of it and your views, and you simply have to accept that.
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Sep 11, 2022 16:27
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:...aaaand that's... all. vote for ...who? democrats? they want me to vote for democrats. they must be telling me to vote for democrats. but they won't SAY it. Mr. Lobe posted:Spending resources in any way towards democrat party electoralism is such a colossal waste of a communist's time and energy I don't even know where to begin describing how disappointed I am to see this line of reasoning here. Fat-Lip-Sum wasn't even quoting something having to do with the conference. He was quoting promotional material from the organization's website. I asked people if they had seen the clip in question, and posted it so we could talk about the part of the conference relevant to what Fat-Lip-Sum was talking about. He then, again, quoted a pamphlet from the website. The response. Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:https://www.cpusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/PAC-popularhandoutFINA2COLSL7.223-1.pdf So immediately after I post about the conference, the replies are either telling me my opinion is shameful or trying to drag conversation in the direction of being about how the CPUSA is bad and a waste of everyone's time.
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Sep 11, 2022 16:33
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