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Funky See Funky Do posted:No in the martial sense, no. The books described her as being very athletic and physically capable but she fought in one, maybe two, battles and nothing is really said about her deeds in those battles. She spent almost all of the first age hidden away in a peaceful kingdom in the middle of a forest. She's revered and considered to be very wise. She's very high-blooded and extremely powerful in terms of "magic". She's considered the greatest of living elves (with Feanor being locked away in Mandos) but even Feanor wasn't renowned for being a fighter. He was famous for his powers of craft and creative genius. As of The Fellowship of the Ring Galadrial is older than Earth human civilization by something like two-three thousand years. Is it somehow impossible that during her thousands of years of life Galadrial learned to swing a loving sword? Would it still be pinching people's pee-pees if this was a new character named Galadridude with the exact same characteristic except with a dick attached?
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Sep 11, 2022 07:01
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withak posted:Remember that most hot takes exist to get you to like & subscribe so they can drip alt-right poison in your ear later. Average visual approximation of the Nerd YouTube-to-White Supremacist pipeline: 
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Sep 11, 2022 07:02
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Jinnigan posted:this is the criticism that i blanket agree on, everything that happens in the show more or less "makes sense" and if you type it up in paragraph form then it's all consistent, i don't mind, sure sure. but it's all amateurishly crafted, for example i agree that it makes sense that Galadriel would find relief in getting to ride a horse after finally meeting an elf-friend but i don't feel the moment was 'earned,' emotionally and storytelling-wise, from what has been told and shown already That is the definition of Kitsch. The whole slo-mo horse riding scene (despite starting out great with the panorama shot) was prime Kitsch, absolutely banal in it's unoriginality, while at the same time claiming earnestness. Yet many viewers react with "Oh how great", because this is the kind of emotionally laden image that caters to a mass audience conditioned to americanized fantasy aesthetics. A style that does not invite the viewer's own imagination, but one that demands them to surrender in agreement. Reacting with contrived outrage, when mockery of the show lays bare their own dullness. A billion dollar coloring book, where going over the borders is out of question. Bombastic scenes, boastful of their production costs, to paint over the show's lack of originality. Compare this to Villeneuve's Dune, also a blockbuster with an enormous budget, but inventive and fresh in it's style and scenery. Hryme posted:Tolkien described her as amazonian and prideful in her younger years. I even quoted some of it earlier in the thread. It just doesn't fit the way you think of her. Quit your strawmanning, I never doubted that Galadriel can fight. Hammerstein posted:When it comes to Galadriel, she didn't really do much fighting at all in the First and Second Age. Of course there can be no doubt that she had received martial training, because the Elves were in an all out war first against Morgoth and then against Sauron. But starting the show with "Galadriel and her Elf commandos" was very cheesy. Hammerstein posted:Galadriel can be counted among the truly great elves, like Fingolfin, Fëanor, Luthien (who was half Maia), Finrod, Turgon and others. The problem is, that her personality has nothing to do with the original character. The writers slapped together a series of traits they wanted and then called that new character Galadriel. Gotta keep the name for brand recognition. Hammerstein fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 08:18
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Everyone posted:As of The Fellowship of the Ring Galadrial is older than Earth human civilization by something like two-three thousand years. Is it somehow impossible that during her thousands of years of life Galadrial learned to swing a loving sword? Would it still be pinching people's pee-pees if this was a new character named Galadridude with the exact same characteristic except with a dick attached? I don't give two shits about her being able to fight. That part makes perfect sense. It's the way they've portrayed her personality that I take issue with. She doesn't seem very wise, or patient, or kind, or able to read other people's hearts, and intuit their inner most desires. It's hard to overstate how differently the show characterizes her compared to the way Tolkien did. In the show she doesn't even know how to act in a royal court and is just plain rude an arrogant. Someone asked a question and I answered with what it says in the books about her. Don't get bent out of shape and project that sort of poo poo onto me.
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Sep 11, 2022 08:39
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just thinking out loud here but isnt destructive obsession kind of a thing in lotr its almost like galadriel is destructively obsessed with hunting sauron 
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Sep 11, 2022 09:12
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Eau de MacGowan posted:just thinking out loud here but isnt destructive obsession kind of a thing in lotr Exactly, it's one of the central tropes in Tolkien's works. And check what happened in the lore to all the destructively obsessed characters? They came to an early grave. Heroes as well as villains, although the villains held out longer. And not being destructively obsessed is one of the reasons why Galadriel is among the very few elven leaders who survived the First Age. Which is why I said on the previous page that it would have been better to substitute the character with some kind of elven valkyrie instead and have the original Galadriel in a supporting role. Hammerstein fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 09:17
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I am not talking about the fighting ability. There is nothing wrong with her personality being different. And that it has changed over the years. It is a valid interpretation. You just don't accept that. I don't think you are a great authority.
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Sep 11, 2022 09:29
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Hryme posted:I am not talking about the fighting ability. There is nothing wrong with her personality being different. And that it has changed over the years. It is a valid interpretation. You just don't accept that. I don't think you are a great authority. That point is kinda moot when she is around 1700 years old at this point. Her being portrayed as an impulsive juvenile goes very much against the grain (and wheres celeborn?). But i guess its for the plot and whatnot. E: age miscalc. Ikonoklast fucked around with this message at 11:22 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 11:20
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Ikonoklast posted:That point is kinda moot when she is around 1700 years old at this point. Her being portrayed as an impulsive juvenile goes very much against the grain (and wheres celeborn?). But i guess its for the plot and whatnot. Is she 1700? Because it's at least 3225 SA in the show. Valian years are I think about 10 years to every one so she's about 1000 before she even comes to middle-earth and about 1600-1700 by the time Melkor is defeated. She's approaching 4500-5000 years old at the point where are in the show.
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Sep 11, 2022 11:49
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This is from The Peoples of Middle-Earth: The History of Middle-Earth, Vol. 12: “So it came to pass that when the light of Valinor failed, for ever as the Noldor thought, she joined the rebellion against the Valar who commanded them to stay; and once she had set foot upon that road of exile, she would not relent, but rejected the last message of the Valar, and came under the Doom of Mandos. Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother’s kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Fëanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could. Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth. It was not until two long ages more had passed, when at last all that she had desired in her youth came to her hand, the Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-earth of which she had dreamed, that her wisdom was full grown and she rejected it, and passing the last test departed from Middle-earth for ever." The second paragraph is interesting because it says that her wisdom was not fully grown until after both the second and third age. Implying that there is some change that happens over that time. And what you people call juvenile I think of as extremely arrogant. Unconcerned with placating people she does not consider to be on her level. As there is no direct insight in the writings to Galadriels personality during the time of the second age there is room to imagine her to be like in the show. It is not like there is a point of view chapter of her in Tolkiens writings.
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Sep 11, 2022 14:02
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Hryme posted:This is from The Peoples of Middle-Earth: The History of Middle-Earth, Vol. 12: I tend to agree with this, and I’m not nearly as put off by Galadriel in the show as others, but while she was proud, she doesn’t show any of the superhuman perception and wisdom that was innately part of her character (knowing from the first that Feanor was bad news) and tempered by study with Melian. Of course, it’s episode three, so there’s plenty of time for the writers to show us more, but Galadriel so far has been rash and impulsive—Elendil even comments on that—which is contrary to some of the defining attributes of the character. Rash is not the same as willful, and Galadriel’s whole thing is “seeing” what others don’t, but she’s spent the show running fast and blind. I think the actress is doing a great job and I’m interested in seeing where the character is going. I’m also glad we’re not getting the ethereal Galadriel from the third age. But so far, at least, the show has shown us a someone who is obviously inspired by the original, but is also radically different in some key areas that detract from the authenticity of the portrayal.
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Sep 11, 2022 14:24
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In the show she is seeing that Sauron is still a threat while no one else is. Which is an element of being able to percieve what others do not. And her actions in Numenor is only rash if she thought she was in any real danger. As far as I can tell so far she is supremely confident that it will work out in her favor. I think people see how she appeared in the Lord and the Rings and think that she must have been that way forever. It is a ridiculously (and honestly stupid) long time to live and a lot of things can happen to inspire change. In any case the real difference is that I am giving the writers of the show good will. And I think it is within the possibility of the lore. Some of you I guess have stronger opinions on it.
Hryme fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 14:39
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I think show Galadriel is good and the casting was great. Galadriel is an unstable conqueror who gets away with a lot more than she should because everyone loves here hair and she's 6'4" (This is in the only part of the casting I disagree with, Morfydd clarke is literally a foot shorter) The show is good so far.
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Sep 11, 2022 15:00
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Cast Jameela Jamil as Galadriel an utterly perfect cartoon giraffe
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Sep 11, 2022 15:33
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Butternubs posted:I think show Galadriel is good and the casting was great. Galadriel is an unstable conqueror who gets away with a lot more than she should because everyone loves here hair and she's 6'4" (This is in the only part of the casting I disagree with, Morfydd clarke is literally a foot shorter) Speaking of which, how is it that Elendil at no point has looked remarkably tall whatsoever?
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Sep 11, 2022 15:43
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Show seems decent to good so far. It's certainly a step up from Disney/Disney+ Star Wars or The Hobbit trilogy. It's also a step up from Amazon's Wheel of Time. WOT really could have used the 65-70 minute run time for each episode and some of the budget from RoP. Not sure how it stacks up to HOTD as I'm not interested in ASOIAF after the disasters of season 7-8. If the fat man ever finishes book 7 it might get my interest back. But just lol if you think he'll ever even finish book 6. (who am I kidding, I'll probably binge it once the season is finished) Love the Dougie "Gandalf" Jones comparison the other Goon made for Meteor Man. Hopefully they don't beat that dead horse into the ground as long as David Lynch did or we won't get real Gandalf until the finale of season 2. it's ok to admit that they used a weird angle for the close up shot of Galadriel's face in the horse riding scene. It doesn't automatically make you a misogynist alt-right weirdo.
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Sep 11, 2022 15:48
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You can show a rash, impulsive, even obsessed character in a lot of ways. However, I do not think that a character with the above traits has to be uncouth, rude, or tactless unless you want them to come off as immature or a jerk. These traits were what Galadriel displayed in ep 3 and are the ones I don't think i like in my elf show. Hopeful that they will pull up because she was not this bad in the first 2 eps (none of this should be construed as an attack on the actress, as this lies squarely on the dialogue she was given).
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Sep 11, 2022 15:49
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I like the style of Numenor. I recognized the same style of archetecture you see in Minas Tirith, they obviously modeled it after their island homeland. When I first read their kings name was Ar Pharazon in the backstory it brought to mind ancient Egypt so I had assumed they were all obelisks and hieroglyphics and poo poo. Why are they elf racists again? Also I thought their ships were neat, I didn't think the sails were silly at all. Excited to see what the deposed King looks like as well as the orcs boss since they left them as a cliffhanger. I really like the concept of advanced civilizations from early antiquity.
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Sep 11, 2022 15:54
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Moltke posted:You can show a rash, impulsive, even obsessed character in a lot of ways. Like imagine you are some big shot and you are talking to the cephapod queen who rules a kingdom of squid people who only live a year before they die of old age. Their cargo cult sense of history is going to be really distorted and its going to be frustrating wading through all their bullshit and making nice just for the sake of decorum.
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Sep 11, 2022 16:03
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Hryme posted:This is from The Peoples of Middle-Earth: The History of Middle-Earth, Vol. 12: You are misinterpreting that paragraph, because that "her wisdom was full grown" refers to her final test, when she had the One Ring within her reach and rejected it. It does not mean that she was a dumbo before and still needed another 3-4000 years of growth. It's meant to emphasize how wise she was at her peak, when she passed a trial that many great ones would fear to take.  Unfinished Tales; HarperCollins UK; Illustrated Deluxe Slipcased edition (1. October 2020), page 250 On page 249 her character is described as follows:  quote:From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding... Noble, generous, rulership of her own realm, wisdom, mercy, understanding, insight....and so on. Instead the writers came up with a bullheaded scrapper. Elves don't really change that much, compared to humans, hobbits or even dwarves. There are exceptions, like the friendship between Legolas and Gimli, but that worked because both characters were kind and good-natured in their hearts. But picking one of Tolkien's central characters, who at this point is thousands of years old, then depicting her as something that she never was and sending her on a journey of character development, like in a coming-of-age novel, is ridiculous.
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Sep 11, 2022 16:04
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Edit: Removed unneccesary quote of the post right above this one. All right I will concede that point. They may have twisted the character too much from the original intent. I still like the show though. Hryme fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 16:09
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How are "wisdom, mercy, understanding" and "bullheaded scrapper" mutually exclusive? As another said I think you just don't like this depeiction are are looking for back-up in the text to prove you are right to dislike it.
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Sep 11, 2022 16:19
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Hryme posted:Edit: Removed unneccesary quote of the post right above this one. Please understand I'm not posting any of this to antagonize you or anything. There's plenty of stuff I like, first and foremost Arondir and the Stranger. But there are things I feel really strongly about. Especially when they try to change a beloved character into a stereotype representative of modern action cinema. Now we can kiss and be friends again 
Hammerstein fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 16:24
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I'm really not seeing the disparity here. She's panicking because she knows a world-destroying power is preparing to do some world destroying and no one believes her. Nothing she's done so far feels out of character given that. And who the gently caress cares if it is? LOTR on screen has been taking liberties with these characters since 2001 and putting out (mostly) amazing work.
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Sep 11, 2022 16:40
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Galadriel is definitely too short.
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Sep 11, 2022 16:42
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Hammerstein posted:You are misinterpreting that paragraph, because that "her wisdom was full grown" refers to her final test, when she had the One Ring within her reach and rejected it. It does not mean that she was a dumbo before and still needed another 3-4000 years of growth. It's meant to emphasize how wise she was at her peak, when she passed a trial that many great ones would fear to take. WELL SAID! This guy's got it right. There's not much more to add. Putting aside the possibility that the writers and actors just didn't do their homework, it really seems like they made Galadriel young and brash to appeal to the teen or early twenties demo that know nothing of Lord of the Rings, maybe haven't even seen the movie. I don't know. I don't know how else they botched her character so badly.
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Sep 11, 2022 16:53
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2nd level spells posted:How are "wisdom, mercy, understanding" and "bullheaded scrapper" mutually exclusive? As another said I think you just don't like this depeiction are are looking for back-up in the text to prove you are right to dislike it. Why yes, that's why we're here....ya know, to discuss the show and whether we like it or not. Got any salient points? Also, "wisdom, mercy, understanding" and "bullheaded scrapper" ARE mutually exclusive, unless you're depicting someone who has multiple personality disorder. The part when she threatens to kill Elendil...and can't manage to speak properly to the court of Numenor. Sure, Galadriel may be impetuous, but not outright stupid or a bully. They are depicting her as if it's an alternate universe and she took Feanor's side instead of rejecting him in almost every possible way.
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Sep 11, 2022 16:58
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I like Galadriel's character and the actress is talented and pretty. I didn't read the books so I have nothing to compare her to. I keep seeing comments like the below, and it's hilarious to me how much this show has become a weird culture war 
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Sep 11, 2022 16:59
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Dengue_Fever posted:it really seems like they made Galadriel young and brash to appeal to the teen or early twenties demo that know nothing of Lord of the Rings, maybe haven't even seen the movie. This is honestly ridiculous and insulting.
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Sep 11, 2022 17:01
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Hammerstein is reasonable to discuss with but you are just a oval office Dengue. You can take your lore accuracy and stick it up your rear end.Dengue_Fever posted:.... I just don't LIKE her! I don't like the way she looks (fetal-alcohol syndrome face). I don't like the way she acts. Man, it sucks. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 11, 2022 17:03
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Panfilo posted:I like the style of Numenor. I recognized the same style of archetecture you see in Minas Tirith, they obviously modeled it after their island homeland. When I first read their kings name was Ar Pharazon in the backstory it brought to mind ancient Egypt so I had assumed they were all obelisks and hieroglyphics and poo poo. They’re envious of Elves’ immortality. They’ve convinced themselves over time that the Elves are hoarding long life and the bliss of Valinor (Tol Eressëa really, which is within sight of Valinor) from Men out of spite. Men’s lifespans have been steadily decreasing over the past 2000 years or so too, from ~500 down to more like 200, so they’re getting really tetchy about it. (Course the reason their lifespans are decreasing is that they’re drifting apart ideologically from the Elves and becoming more jealous and clinging to life the briefer it gets, which is a lovely thing to do in the eyes of Ilúvatar/God, so it’s a hell of a feedback loop.)
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Sep 11, 2022 17:03
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Panfilo posted:Why are they elf racists again? The first king of Numenor was Elrond's twin brother, Elros, and were half elves. Elros chose to live as a man, and died about 500 years into the Second Age, but his lineage was passed down to the kings of numenor who followed. The elves honored this kinship and gor a long time Numenor had good relations with the Elves of Lindon in northwest Middle Earth and with the Elves of Tol Eressëa, the lonely island that lay off the coast of Valinor. Over time the men of Numenor came to dominate the seas, sailing further than anyone had ever been and charting lands the Elves had never heard of. In a few centuries they had become arguably the greatest society in the history of Middle Earth, rivaling anything the Elves had built in the first age. With this came pride, but also fear, since men were still mortal, and they envied the Elves and their eternal life. They also came to hate the Valar for denying them access to Valinor, the one place they could not sail without being repulsed by the Sea. In time the relationship between Men and Elves became strained as Numenor came to be divided between the elf friends, The Faithful, and the King's Men, who embraced the might of Numenor and their superiority to other races. By the late Second Age the King's Men represented the majority of the population and the Faithful remained mostly on the western shores of the island, closest to Valinor. The Faithful kept up appearances of being King's Men nationalists in public while secretly maintaining their friendship with the Elves and their faith in the Valar and Illuvatar. By the time we see Numenor in the show they're almost fully isolationist pricks of the King's Men brexiting themselves away from anyone else in Middle Earth.
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Sep 11, 2022 17:05
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Internet nerds: "This galadriel is such a Mary sue" Also internet nerds: "Why is galadriel so arrogant and where are her superhuman abilities of perception and insight???"
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Sep 11, 2022 17:06
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Hryme posted:Hammerstein is reasonable to discuss with but you are just a oval office Dengue. You can take your lore accuracy and stick it up your rear end. Same sentiments to you. Half of the posters are idiots on this thread, including you. Dengue_Fever fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 17:28
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I think a lot of the controversies of this show would have been solved if the main character wasn't so impulsive, whether you've read or like that executive decision or not. I think that if people are on the edge, the main character both not being a fish-out-of-water like Luke and extremely angry all the time might nudge them simply towards not empathizing or connecting with them as a main character. Frodo was in disadvantage and remained in control as much as he could but then again his story is the story of someone who's underestimated resisting being temptation. Blonde in the good/b/u was an rear end in a top hat but a calm one and that helps connecting with him since he's already on the edge, whereas Luke gets to be a bit anxious and mad at times because he's already a fish out of water. Personally I think 80's heroes like Ripley, Dutch, Sarah Connor are good templates. Like Frodo they're all humbled by facing something much greater than them, and maybe this is why people wanting the main character to be not-Galadriel come in, I think. When the character is vastly superior to their foes like Rambo they establish focusing on they being rejected or misunderstood, but forgiving to enemies trying to actively kill them like in First Blood, which is a very different feel than Galadriel threatening someone who saved her life casually. It feels like she doesn't value her life, or anyone else's for that matter. Maybe she can in fact kill everyone the city and escape but is that a compelling character? I don't know. I'm trying to understand the direction here because it is very confusing, ignoring the books or who the character is supposed to be. I've thought of multiple angles, even the revenge story angle, but characters in revenge stories tend to be mad, angry, but also calculating even if their calculations misfire. I think this is compounded by the fact everyone else in the story is being polite so there's a harsh contrast. Halbrand holding himself really hard not to lose his temper while he's being harassed and using it as an opportunity to steal something. Elrond going on a diplomacy mission and trying to understand his failures as a friend while the Dwarves in turn try to forgive him. Even the elves when rebelling against Galadriel didn't threaten her, they just laid their swords on the ground. The Harfoot helping a stranger giant with creepy magic powers and he in turn helping them. Elendil dismissed Galadriel threatening him and took her to a library. With a few exceptions it seems like everyone in this series tries to be level-headed or is a level-headed character trying to deal with people not believing/antagonizing them; the POV changes for Galadriel, and while for me that doesn't spoil the series, I do wish they turned down the angry dial by 15% or at least the impulsiveness. Show her back holding the dagger when talking to Elendil showing that's her back-up plan like most antiheroes would do, even Han chats up with the green alien before killing him.
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Sep 11, 2022 17:32
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Galadriel is so uncharacteristically twitchy and angry because she hasn't slept in 100 years due to having a newborn baby and husbando who are both conveniently offscreen! bam now everyone's happy I'm done with Halbrand-is-Sauron theories, how can we torture the existing lore to come up with a halfway plausible way for Halbrand to be Celeborn?
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Sep 11, 2022 17:37
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Hryme posted:Edit: Removed unneccesary quote of the post right above this one. I like it too. I even think the decision to set Galadriel as main character is a really good one. I can roll with what they’re doing here, but I am a little too much of a purist for some parts. At any rate, anyone expecting this to be Tolkien instead of Tolkienesque TV has grossly over-inflated expectations.
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Sep 11, 2022 17:44
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Xibanya posted:I'm done with Halbrand-is-Sauron theories, how can we torture the existing lore to come up with a halfway plausible way for Halbrand to be Celeborn? Halbrand only admits to being a king in exile because lying is better than revealing he's on the run for filming a bunch of sketchy telepornos down in Umbar.
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Sep 11, 2022 17:45
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i think the scene in the throne room with galadriel just made for weird, jarring writing that didn't seem like something anyone would do. leave aside how faithful it might have been to the books and all that they should just have written it differently, and it seemed like something the plot required more so than galadriel's lore
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Sep 11, 2022 17:48
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I was kind of  at Halbrand's scene of getting harassed at the outdoor bar by the gang of racists. It felt like the show was making out as though a minority in a fascist society ought to be able to make buddies of his harassers by buying them all drinks and being a jokester.
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Sep 11, 2022 17:59
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