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Ultiville
Jan 14, 2005

The law protects no one unless it binds everyone, binds no one unless it protects everyone.

Liquid Communism posted:

Note FFXIV also did something important: it made all of the content barring a few raids soloable. You can play the game essentially as a regular FF game if you want, only dealing with other players on the handful of storyline instances before you get to endgame raiding content. You don't have to grind, the main storyline quests give enough xp to more than max out a class or two.

It’s way more than a handful. They did some stuff better than WoW in these terms but as someone who gets pretty unpleasant anxiety about grouping with strangers it took me a long time to get through FFXIV because there was historically a forced grouping dungeon every few levels at most starting at 15.

Now, WoW had the problem where you couldn’t finish an overall storyline without running into at least a dungeon and often raids, but WoW’s storyline also isn’t the main point and you could just level around the stuff and still see all the zones and so forth. You could go from level 1-max in WoW doing group content never or only at your own pace. You absolutely can’t do that in FFXIV.

Now, they’ve realized this isn’t great and are gradually building in Trusts so you can run all the required dungeons with AIs, but that’s a new thing and they aren’t done yet. You’re right about the lack of grinding and that’s cool, but as someone who really would prefer to solo almost all the time, WoW felt much more friendly to that play style than FFXIV historically.

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Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.

Arivia posted:

WoW has trouble creating content but to my understanding the main engineering team is very good at rewriting the core of the game to keep it up to date with best practices and improvements in design. That's been shown pretty well by the various classic WoW releases, where the original versions of the game from that time were completely incompatible with Blizzard's game services now, and so the projects have consisted of reimplementing those expansions on the modern client with changes to make grogs happy.

Why are we talking about this in the TG industry thread anyway?

Common themes of dysfunctional development and misaimed priorities, I think.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017

Liquid Communism posted:

Note FFXIV also did something important: it made all of the content barring a few raids soloable. You can play the game essentially as a regular FF game if you want, only dealing with other players on the handful of storyline instances before you get to endgame raiding content. You don't have to grind, the main storyline quests give enough xp to more than max out a class or two.

Is that very recent? When I played last year even then you still had the mandatory queuing up for the big plot dungeons like Ifrit and onward. It's why I didn't play any tank or healer roles, because I was far too anxious about messing up.

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

Dawgstar posted:

Is that very recent? When I played last year even then you still had the mandatory queuing up for the big plot dungeons like Ifrit and onward. It's why I didn't play any tank or healer roles, because I was far too anxious about messing up.

It's being phased in at this time. You can take a passel of NPCs through A Realm Reborn, Shadowbringers, and Endwalker dungeons. That leaves 2 expansions in the middle still.

e- They are planning to patch in the rest over their 6.0 patch cycle though, to be clear:

https://www.fanbyte.com/games/news/ffxiv-trust-system-realm-reborn-heavensward-stormblood-msq/

Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Sep 13, 2022

joylessdivision
Jun 15, 2013



Kibner posted:

Beast had a sanctum system or something similar.

We don't talk about the cursed game.

CitizenKeen
Nov 13, 2003

easygoing pedant

Lambo Trillrissian posted:

Also kind of on the edge of MMOs but Path of Exile hideout decor is a big deal, the trade economy relies on meeting players in their homes and people absolutely love to show off.

I feel like that's actually a relatively unexplored space in tabletop design, some groups absolutely love to acquire a base and deck it out with Cool Stuff but it's usually handwaved or a vestigial/supplemental system, the closest I can think of to a game really mechanically focused around specifically developing that fantasy would be... idk, Ars Magica? Blades in the Dark sort of?

Honestly, there's money there. Make some form of the game (e.g., trading) take place in someone's home. And allow people to spend infinite real money on their homes. The key is to have a reason to go into other people's homes.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Dawgstar posted:

Is that very recent? When I played last year even then you still had the mandatory queuing up for the big plot dungeons like Ifrit and onward. It's why I didn't play any tank or healer roles, because I was far too anxious about messing up.

I do the opposite and only play tanks because if I gotta team up with some idiots at some point I'm at least gonna set the pace. Nothing I hate more than queuing as DPS for something mandatory just to watch a doofus tank fail to get the dungeon moving.

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

joylessdivision posted:

We don't talk about the cursed game.

Beast 2.0, where it turns into a home decoration/town management game with the aesthetics of Animal Crossing, but you're still a nightmare entity in the Shadow Realm who feeds on physical or mental abuse so you torment all the cute animal townsfolk around you at night to reduce your hunger meter. Next morning you plant some orange trees around your house and fish up a coelacanth in the rain.

Rand Brittain
Mar 25, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."
Okay, I wrote to DTRPG and they confirmed that the move to heavier paper stock will be mostly automatic and their team will handle the cases where that doesn't work, so it looks like this transition will be a mostly unalloyed improvement.

joylessdivision
Jun 15, 2013



Nuns with Guns posted:

Beast 2.0, where it turns into a home decoration/town management game with the aesthetics of Animal Crossing, but you're still a nightmare entity in the Shadow Realm who feeds on physical or mental abuse so you torment all the cute animal townsfolk around you at night to reduce your hunger meter. Next morning you plant some orange trees around your house and fish up a coelacanth in the rain.

I am both repelled and intrigued by this idea and I could absolutely see it becoming an indie video game darling with the right aesthetic.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:
To be exactly as fair to beast as it deserves, the players handbook had some "Lair Feats" that deserved to be in a better game. Like one that let your lair communicate eletromagnetically with the real world, letting you get internet, or run a pirate radio station out of the rotting wound you've carved into mankind's collective unconscious.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017

theironjef posted:

I do the opposite and only play tanks because if I gotta team up with some idiots at some point I'm at least gonna set the pace. Nothing I hate more than queuing as DPS for something mandatory just to watch a doofus tank fail to get the dungeon moving.

I got a lot of commendations I think they're called playing DPS because I was one of the only ones who'd interact with the boss mechanics, which was often just 'break off, pull a lever.'

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.
Clapping Larry

Gynovore posted:

Honestly player housing in MMOs is one of those things games have just to say they have it. Unless it's a super RP game, no one ever goes to other people's houses, ever.

Back in the early 00's I (briefly) played Anarchy Online and Neocron, both of which made a big deal of having free instanced player housing. The only time people ever went to other people's apartments was when a bug randomly teleported you there.

Warframe's clan dojos can get insanely detailed

disposablewords
Sep 12, 2021

joylessdivision posted:

I am both repelled and intrigued by this idea and I could absolutely see it becoming an indie video game darling with the right aesthetic.

Cult of the Lamb is like 90% of the way there already, so yeah.

Something Else
Dec 27, 2004

to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022
Has anyone ever had success demo'ing a game at a convention resulting in good exposure or sales? My game's first run is set to be printed next month, the distribution scheme is kind of odd and opaque to me, so I'm wondering if I should try to take it out personally as well. It's a fairly simple card game which can be played in ~15 minutes, so I think it would be well suited to the demo table. But I don't really have any experience with cons, I think the last one I went to was Origins in 2004.

Zereth
Jul 9, 2003



Dawgstar posted:

Is that very recent? When I played last year even then you still had the mandatory queuing up for the big plot dungeons like Ifrit and onward. It's why I didn't play any tank or healer roles, because I was far too anxious about messing up.
As long as you understand the basic concepts of tanking and what your buttons do it's actually easier than DPS until you're doing like advanced tank swap poo poo in serious business raids. There's a lot of mechanics you can just ignore because they're happening to other people. It's great. I love Warrior. :black101:

joylessdivision posted:

I am both repelled and intrigued by this idea and I could absolutely see it becoming an indie video game darling with the right aesthetic.
Just make it if you gently caress up being subtle enough or whatever and they catch on and murder you labeled "Good Ending".

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

Warframe's clan dojos can get insanely detailed
And there's a reason to go to them: trading with other players.

Bottom Liner
Feb 15, 2006


a specific vein of lasagna

Something Else posted:

Has anyone ever had success demo'ing a game at a convention resulting in good exposure or sales? My game's first run is set to be printed next month, the distribution scheme is kind of odd and opaque to me, so I'm wondering if I should try to take it out personally as well. It's a fairly simple card game which can be played in ~15 minutes, so I think it would be well suited to the demo table. But I don't really have any experience with cons, I think the last one I went to was Origins in 2004.

This is a tricky one that depends heavily on the size and layout of the convention. At a big one like Gencon, you really need a good attention grabbing booth/game/table to get people willing to stop and give you a chance. At a smaller one with less vendor presence, you're going to get like 1% of the traffic and still need something to hook them. The much better and more effective method to get people to actually play a game is to get it on the "hot new games" tables in the open play areas. People check out those areas with the intent of really seeing and trying new games, but that may require connections with the convention organizers and you'll be up against flashy kickstarter miniature games with huge boxes, etc.

Like everything today though, marketing is going to be dominated by social media and finding the right personalities with a matching audience for your game can do wonders. If you want to PM me some more info about your game I'll see if I can point you towards anyone.

moths
Aug 25, 2004

I would also still appreciate some danger.



Maybe consider some kind of swag / freebie. It's dumb, but spin-and-win swag or free samples booths always seem to do well.

I think at PAX there was a promo where you could get a discount on GW's kill team after you played a demo, which might be another angle worth considering.

Ultiville
Jan 14, 2005

The law protects no one unless it binds everyone, binds no one unless it protects everyone.

Something Else posted:

Has anyone ever had success demo'ing a game at a convention resulting in good exposure or sales? My game's first run is set to be printed next month, the distribution scheme is kind of odd and opaque to me, so I'm wondering if I should try to take it out personally as well. It's a fairly simple card game which can be played in ~15 minutes, so I think it would be well suited to the demo table. But I don't really have any experience with cons, I think the last one I went to was Origins in 2004.

Back in the early/mid 2010s it could be lucrative enough that my first paid gig in gaming was getting flown out to run demos by a smaller local publisher. It was a good time and they made enough sales to consider it worth it. But realistically it's highly unlikely your hourly rate will be much to write home about even if you technically make money, especially if you have to travel, so a lot of the value is likely to lie in potential reviews and exposure rather than direct sales.

Coolness Averted
Feb 20, 2007

oh don't worry, I can't smell asparagus piss, it's in my DNA

GO HOGG WILD!
🐗🐗🐗🐗🐗

Something Else posted:

Has anyone ever had success demo'ing a game at a convention resulting in good exposure or sales? My game's first run is set to be printed next month, the distribution scheme is kind of odd and opaque to me, so I'm wondering if I should try to take it out personally as well. It's a fairly simple card game which can be played in ~15 minutes, so I think it would be well suited to the demo table. But I don't really have any experience with cons, I think the last one I went to was Origins in 2004.

Way back in 2007 or so a really well run demo of munchkin sold me on that game of all things, so I think good demos can do a lot to boost favorability.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017

Zereth posted:

As long as you understand the basic concepts of tanking and what your buttons do it's actually easier than DPS until you're doing like advanced tank swap poo poo in serious business raids. There's a lot of mechanics you can just ignore because they're happening to other people. It's great. I love Warrior. :black101:

I do want to try Dark Knight one time.

Kibner
Oct 21, 2008

Acguy Supremacy

Dawgstar posted:

I do want to try Dark Knight one time.

Go for it. They are rad.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised.

Nuns with Guns posted:

Beast 2.0, where it turns into a home decoration/town management game with the aesthetics of Animal Crossing, but you're still a nightmare entity in the Shadow Realm who feeds on physical or mental abuse so you torment all the cute animal townsfolk around you at night to reduce your hunger meter. Next morning you plant some orange trees around your house and fish up a coelacanth in the rain.

You're about halfway to Cult of the Lamb.

potatocubed
Jul 26, 2012

*rathian noises*

Something Else posted:

Has anyone ever had success demo'ing a game at a convention resulting in good exposure or sales? My game's first run is set to be printed next month, the distribution scheme is kind of odd and opaque to me, so I'm wondering if I should try to take it out personally as well. It's a fairly simple card game which can be played in ~15 minutes, so I think it would be well suited to the demo table. But I don't really have any experience with cons, I think the last one I went to was Origins in 2004.

I know that Indie Games on the Hour, at Dragonmeet in the UK, absolutely drives sales of the games they demo (which are RPGs, to be clear). People keep telling me I should do it but I hate running games for strangers, so.

OtspIII
Sep 22, 2002

Something Else posted:

Has anyone ever had success demo'ing a game at a convention resulting in good exposure or sales? My game's first run is set to be printed next month, the distribution scheme is kind of odd and opaque to me, so I'm wondering if I should try to take it out personally as well. It's a fairly simple card game which can be played in ~15 minutes, so I think it would be well suited to the demo table. But I don't really have any experience with cons, I think the last one I went to was Origins in 2004.

Having done a fair amount of this, I'm pretty skeptical about it from an immediate sales point of view. The raw number of people you're going to be able to meaningfully engage with is not super high compared to the costs of the convention--when we were putting Sumer on the convention circuit we were running one game every 20ish minutes, usually a full 4-player game, probably coming out to something like 200+ish people trying out the game at our booth over the course of the convention. At PAX Unplugged (technically Sumer's a digital game, but it's also extremely just a euro board game) we also did the featured play zone thing, which probably boosted that to something like 300 people. On top of that, you also get a few thousand people who see your booth/signage/etc and maybe remember you later.

Conversion rates are pretty brutal, though, so that's not going to be 300 immediate sales. It's honestly probably going to be sub-10 if you don't have a way to push people towards buying it straight from your booth (which we couldn't do, as a digital game). My experience was that the boost in sales we got from showing at conventions was usually pretty negligable.

That said, there are a bunch of other reasons to show at a con. Meeting other devs and folk is great--both peers and connecting with publisher/reviewer/influencer types. Even if people don't buy your game right away, if they then see it again in the wild a month later they're a lot more likely to look at it closely if they remember it from a con. A lot of our most loyal fans were people we met and showed the game to in person at the convention, which is both cool as a human but also for building a community that gets people into the game. Getting selected for things gave us a bunch of badges and awards we could put on our steam page.

At the end of the day, though, my experience is that showing at a con can be helpful in a number of ways, but your game really needs to be the type of thing that self-propels by word of mouth. If it is, the wave of attention you get at the convention can be a good seed towards building up momentum. If it's not, there's no advertising you can do that's really worth the cost. Showing Sumer at cons did a great job of doing things like getting us on the radars of some studio heads and making friends with other devs, so I absolutely do not regret them, but ultimately the game was a bit too niche for the cons to be financially profitable--a local multiplayer worker placement game with a pretty dry Euro-boardgame theme was always going to be tough to generate buzz around.

Something Else
Dec 27, 2004

to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022
Thanks for the great info everyone! Much to think about. It’s still too early to make any decisions but I think I’ll at least attend the next con available to me and see if I can grok the vibes

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

Anyone paying attention to the current HUGE CONTROVERSY in the world of chess?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/sep/09/chess-hans-niemann-hits-back-over-cheating-controversy-in-st-louis

Grand Master Magnus Carlsen refused to play a match at a recent Big Deal tournament, essentially resigning by default, because - although he didn't explicitly say - he suspected his opponent Hans Niemann of cheating.

You would think cheating at chess in a live match is impossible, but it's not the sort of cheating you might imagine, like, surreptitiously moving a piece when nobody's looking, or making a fast illegal move in speed chess at the local park. The idea here is that at the top levels, chess players prepare in advance for matches by studying their opponents' match histories (which are all recorded) and investigating potential "lines" - strings of moves - based on openings and responses that the opponent prefers.

But if you play a line that you think your opponent cannot have studied, and then your opponent - who until very recently was much lower ranked - seems to have extremely good moves quickly in response? How did they do that? Well, there's two possibilities, both outlandish:
1. Niemann somehow got ahold of any notes or preparation that Carlsen was doing before the match. Spying, basically. This presumes that Carlsen prepared in some way that could be spied on. It seems very very unlikely.
2. Niemann could have been fed moves by a third party observer, either a human who is putting the whole game into a computer, or some automated computerized system without a human intermediary. Computer solvers these days are incredible, you can run something like Stockfish on a normal PC and it's better than the best chess players in the world, it can take each move and calculate out lines and spit out the best one within a minute or so.

I remember the big news back when IBM's Deep Blue went up against Garry Kasparov in 96 and again in 97: it took a serious supercomputer to challenge him, but it worked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_versus_Garry_Kasparov In their second set of games, Deep Blue bested Kasparov by one. Well, it doesn't take a supercomputer any more. The algorithms have improved radically and of course computer power has improved exponentially. My guess is Stockfish running on a normal PC today would completely wreck 1997 Deep Blue running on a couple million dollars of specialized computer hardware of the day.

OK but why suspect Neimann? Couldn't he just be the latest chess prodigy? Well, three things stand out.
First: his meteoric rise in rankings. Normally one's chess ranking only moves slowly: you play people of similar strength in tournaments, and if you beat them, you climb a few points and they descend a few points in ranking. To climb rapidly you must win a lot of matches against players who are, at least nominally, better than you. Niemann's ranking rose slowly for years, but then suddenly shot up - is he really a grand master-level player, all of a sudden?
Second, and perhaps more relevantly, Niemann was previously banned from Chess.com (the world's most popular online chess site) for cheating. Cheating online is trivial of course, you can just run a solver in a second window and put the moves it tells you to make into your online game. Kinda stupid, and also the reason why a person's "online" chess ranking is meaningless, only live over-the-board rankings matter in the chess world. Niemann has admitted that he cheated when playing online at the age of 12, and again at 16, to boost his online rating.
Third: According to Carlsen (sorta, hinted) and Carlsen fans (online, legions of them), Niemann's actual moves in the first match they played were very sus. He appeared to be prepared for moves that (according to them) Carlsen could not have been predicted to play.

So one big question is whether there is some method by which a partner (human or computer) could signal Niemann. An answer has been suggested, and it's amazing:
https://twitter.com/Babble____/status/1567437910361751552

This theory was given a little bit more credence when another very online chess grand master, Hikaru Nakamura, commented on it a few days ago, and wasn't totally dismissive:
"An anal bead probably would beat the engine...I told you it was prostate massage. But I'm not an expert at that stuff".
Hikaru has a popular Youtube channel, he streams stuff, he tweets a lot. His fans went nuts when he said that, but also a lot of his fans probably understood what some news sites clearly do not, which is that Hikaru thinks this is hilarious and is mostly joking. Mostly.

I mean, it's not... it's not impossible. Right? Teledildonics is a real thing. You could have an engine send you the best move via morse code or something.

It gets better. The world's favorite billionaire rear end in a top hat has weighed in:

:negative:

OK. So Niemann has vigorously denied cheating. He has reasonable explanations for how he was able to beat Carlsen in their first match. This is the best interview, the interviewer is a chess expert so he's able to ask deep, good questions about the game itself and what Neimann was thinking, and Niemann's responses seem fine to me. After this interview came out, a lot more people shifted to supporting Niemann over Carlsen's accusations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJZuT-_kij0&t=492s

One of the key points is that people were looking at Hikaru's line as "unprecedented" - that is, it shouldn't have been possible for Carlsen to prepare for it, but he seemed very ready to respond well to it. Carlsen points out how stupid this idea is, because while the specific sequence of moves Hikaru took hadn't happened before, the position Hikaru set up was essentially a transposition of positions Carlsen has played against before. He found the position familiar enough to be ready to respond to it. People who play at this level tend to have incredibly good memories, they need to memorize a hundred or more "standard" openings, and have played thousands of matches. They can feel familiar with the texture of a given board setup from experience or study without having played a particular sequence to get to that setup before.

Another key point is that experts say Carlsen played their first match poorly. He made errors. That's unusual, and there's lots of reasons why Carlsen might have been a bit off his game, but he normally has a ton of stamina and can play dozens of games in a row without breaking a sweat. He's an incredible player. But his fans' idea that he simply "would not have" lost a game like this is foolish.

Lastly: Carlsen has a personal goal, to raise his ranking to the highest ever attained, and when you're already near the top it's extremely difficult to do that. Every tournament you win may only advance your ranking by half a point, because beating players whose ranks are way below yours doesn't raise your rank at all. But losing to a lower-ranked player (like Nieman) can drop your ranking significantly. So there's a strong reason for Carlsen to be very very annoyed at losing his first game. He carefully avoided explicitly making accusations, but his hinting at it accomplished the same thing: if Nieman is somehow sanctioned or kicked out, his loss is invalidated and he keeps his ranking, or at least he won't have to play this guy again.

These are people with giant egos, very weird personalities, who are Big Deals in the insular and tight world of top chess. It's fascinating stuff in a part of the Trad Games industry we rarely talk about here. I'm interested in folks' thoughts.

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008



Nuns with Guns posted:

Beast 2.0, where it turns into a home decoration/town management game with the aesthetics of Animal Crossing, but you're still a nightmare entity in the Shadow Realm who feeds on physical or mental abuse so you torment all the cute animal townsfolk around you at night to reduce your hunger meter. Next morning you plant some orange trees around your house and fish up a coelacanth in the rain.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2666800

Or, for those without archives...

https://lparchive.org/Animal-Crossing/

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

A city that was to live by night after the wilderness had passed. A city that was to forge out of steel and blood-red neon its own peculiar wilderness.

The thing that's most illuminating was listening to other GM's break down his poor explanation of why he was doing what he was doing and just being completely wrong in his line calculation in a way that is unlikely for anyone who plays the game at his rating. In a way that even had the commentators of the official stream laughing.

He also could just be young and nervous or whatever.

Magnus also like, I don't think has ever just completely walked away from a tournament he was already in like this before. It was something completely out of character for him.

I dunno if that dude was cheating, but there is certainly enough circumstantial evidence around that dude where I get people being suspicious.

Dexo fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Sep 14, 2022

Bottom Liner
Feb 15, 2006


a specific vein of lasagna

OtspIII posted:

when we were putting Sumer on the convention circuit

Oh poo poo, had no idea you were a goon. This game rules, everyone that has a Switch and likes tabletop games needs to try this.

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

Dexo posted:

The thing that's most illuminating was listening to other GM's break down his poor explanation of why he was doing what he was doing and just being completely wrong in his line calculation in a way that is unlikely for anyone who plays the game at his rating. In a way that even had the commentators of the official stream laughing.

He also could just be young and nervous or whatever.

Magnus also like, I don't think has ever just completely walked away from a tournament he was already in like this before. It was something completely out of character for him.

I dunno if that dude was cheating, but there is certainly enough circumstantial evidence around that dude where I get people being suspicious.

Yeah Magnus has never bailed on a tournament, ever.
In interviews, Niemann seems like a hypercaffinated, nervous, poor communicator... not an indictment, just runs against him in that he's obviously not good at defending himself.

However suspicious his play may have been, I'm extremely dubious about the proposed methods of cheating. They carefully search and wand players, and the broadcast of the game is on a 15 minute delay. He'd have to have someone in-person providing signals to something on his body that the security system couldn't detect. And the risk for just trying this is huge, he'd have to know that if he got caught he'd be banned forever, and this is the guy's livelihood.

I think it's more likely that he's a young and unusual player who took a weird line, and that Carlsen is also a bit of a weirdo quite obsessed about his ranking and it's just this confluence of an odd match and two very odd people and a very insular and weird community all at once.

Tendales
Mar 9, 2012
Sumer is also a great use case for Steam's Play Together fake-local-multiplayer-over-online feature!

Toph Bei Fong
Feb 29, 2008



Leperflesh posted:

You would think cheating at chess in a live match is impossible, but it's not the sort of cheating you might imagine, like, surreptitiously moving a piece when nobody's looking, or making a fast illegal move in speed chess at the local park. The idea here is that at the top levels, chess players prepare in advance for matches by studying their opponents' match histories (which are all recorded) and investigating potential "lines" - strings of moves - based on openings and responses that the opponent prefers.

But if you play a line that you think your opponent cannot have studied, and then your opponent - who until very recently was much lower ranked - seems to have extremely good moves quickly in response? How did they do that?

This whole thing is extremely funny.

It reminds me of the "controversy" over Bobby Fisher's style back in the 70s, where, instead of just outplaying his opponents on the board, he just ruined them psychologically by being a loving weirdo while playing

https://www.nytimes.com/1972/09/03/archives/psychic-murder-at-the-chessboard-encounter-at-reykjavik-boy-wonder.html

quote:

Fischer vs. Spassky

By Harold C. Schonberg
Sept. 3, 1972

REYKJAVIK, Iceland: At first, Boris Spassky did not want to use the duplicate of the swivel chair that Bobby Fischer had ordered from New York. He was perfectly comfortable with the big, cloth‐upholstered chair that the Icelandic Chess Federation had supplied. Spassky would sit in it, motionless, elbows on the handsome but impractical table that the Icelandic organizers had built for the world championship chess match, chin supported by both palms, his leonine head expressionless, his eyes moving from the king rook 1 square to the queen rook 8 square, assessing, balancing, weighing, anticipating, planning. Across from him sat Bobby Fischer, lolling back, gently swiveling to and fro, feet jigging in that nervous habit of his. But one day shortly after the match started Spassky, without any comment, was also using a Fischer‐type chair, a $500 (U.S.) black, leather‐upholstered, chrome‐trimmed beauty flown in from New York courtesy of the manufacturer. There was one difference. Fischer sat directly facing Spassky, in profile to the audience. But Spassky played much of the five hour sessions with his back to the pieces, the chair swiveled at right angles to the chessboard.

As the match went on and Fischer drew inexorably ahead, Spassky seemed more and more in a private world. Often, his back to the audience, be would stare at the rear wall of the stage even while he was on the move. Never did he look at Fischer. When he got up to stretch his legs, his body no longer had the elasticity and confident movement it had shown at the beginning of the match. His handsome, intelligent‐looking face was drawn. Often his lips would compress as though he were in physical pain. His impassive expression began to betray signs of deep emotion. His mind was no longer responding alertly, and he was beginning to make blunders almost of an elementary nature. Boris Spassky, the chess champion of the world, the player supposedly without nerves, the representative of Soviet culture, the suave gentleman adored by all who came into contact with him, the polite and civilized upholder of the amenities, being outplayed and psychologically ground down by the money‐hungry, nekulturny, rude, inconsiderate, ego‐crushing savage from the United States.

Perhaps Spassky was suffering from Fischer‐fear. Perhaps the weight of the Soviet bureaucracy was too much for him to bear. Perhaps Fischer was too strong for him to begin with, though Fischer had never won a game from Spassky in five previous encounters prior to the world‐championship match. Perhaps Spassky was not in the best of health. Perhaps Fischer was using electronic and chemical warfare, as Spassky's second, Efim Geller, in a statement issued on Aug. 22, charged, to the general merriment of Reykjavik and the chess world.

Whatever it was, the Spassky mindstyle was being swamped and overwhelmed by the Fischer mind‐style. The Fischer aura had enveloped him. When the Fischer aura envelops an opponent, terrible things happen. Combinations turn out faulty. Exchanges are lost. Players end up in zugzwang. Well‐tested openings develop flaws. Outright blunders are committed. “I made blunders,” said a puzzled Mark Taimanov on his return to Russia after losing 6‐0 to Fischer during the elimination match in Vancouver, “that I have not made since I was a child.” Spassky, in the 13th game. makes a rook move that converts a draw to a loss. Spassky, in the 14th game, makes a pawn move that converts a win to a draw. At the time of writing the score, at the end of the 19th game, was 11 to 8, and nobody was giving Spassky any chances. He might win one or even two more games, but he had an all but insuperable task if he was to retain his title.

It is hard to describe this Fischer aura. But there it is, palpable in its presence, reaching over the board to embrace the opponent, reaching beyond the stage to seize the audience. Relentless, monomaniacal and pitiless, it is the aura of a killer. It is there in Fischer's face. He sits at the board, lips slightly parted, his deep‐set and bleakly expressionless eyes scanning the 64 squares. He knows more about the openings than As opponents, and he can see a little deeper into the possibilities of a position, and he mercilessly takes immediate advantage of the opponent's slightest error, and he can nourish a minute positional advantage into a won end game. But, terrifying as all this may be to the Fischer opponents, that is not what scares them. That is not the nature of the Fischer aura.

No. The Fischer aura goes deeper than that, deeper even than his insatiable will to win. Basically the Fischer aura is the will to dominate, to humiliate, to take over an opponent's mind. A player losing to any other player shrugs and walks away. He lost and all chess players lose at one time or another, and there will be another day, another game. But a loss to Fischer somehow diminishes a player. Part of him has been eaten, and he is that much less whole man. It is psychic murder that Fischer represents, far more than any chess player in history. Spassky, winning a hard‐fought game, like as not will feel sorry for his opponent when it is all over. He will smile at him, pat him on the back, sympathize. Fischer, winning a close one, exults in it, whether or not it shows in his face. His ego has been fed, the blood has been licked and savored. Other grandmasters play for points. Fischer plays to obliterate another mind.

In the process, the 29‐year‐old chess genius has suddenly become one of the most famous men in the world, and chess never again will be the same. From being the Mozart of chess, which he was when, as a prodigy of 14, he won the United States championship, he has developed into the Beethoven of chess. Like Beethoven, he has insisted on respect for his uncommon creative ability. Like Beethoven, he has cultivated one talent to the exclusion of everything else. Like Beethoven, he has broken away from the establishment, refused to remain a lackey and demanded handsome payment for his services. Like Beethoven, he has to have his own way and goes into rages when he is crossed. Like Beethoven, he is impractical, unworldly, sloppy, suspicious, not always ethical in his business dealings, totally lacking in the social graces.

But he has long been a folk hero on the campus — this high‐school dropout, this malcontent, this loner who by the force of his personality and talent has taken on vested authority single‐handed and has made the world respond to his wishes. And now he is a universal folk hero, or antihero as the case might be. He and his Nimzo Indians and Poisoned Pawn Sicilians are household words, and thanks to him chess is no longer a harmless pastime played by lovable old men in quiet rooms. It is big business, thanks to Bobby Fischer, who soon will be a millionaire himself. And he really does not know what money is. All he knows is that to be successful you must be rich. Money to him is a status symbol rather than dollars and cents to be spent or saved or invested.

Perhaps he has lost touch with reality. He demands that his hotel close off the swimming pool to everybody but himself. He demands that 10 expensive chessboards be made by Iceland's finest artisan so that he can make a selection. He demands that the auditorium of the hall in which he is playing be reduced by half so that there will be less noise. He objects to television and film cameras because he thinks they make noise, and when it is demonstrated that they do not make noise, he objects merely because they are there. He wants a Mercedes to be waiting for him when he gets off the plane—an automatic, not a shift car, and a brand new one, not a used car. He wants this. He wants that.

Or perhaps it is that he cannot really be happy and play at his best unless he is terrorizing people, making them jump, making them rush to obey his whims. That builds up his own ego. As over the chessboard, so it is in life. Bobby Fischer feeds on other egos, and his own then grows correspondingly fatter and hungrier. This boy from a broken family who never had much money, who has lived mostly alone in cheap hotel rooms surrounded by old copies of Playboy magazine, with a transistor radio beating out the loudest rock music—this boy is, by God, going to show everybody who's the boss.

That includes Spassky and the Russians. Especially the Russians. Fischer for years has been seeing Russians under every pawn, all panting to emerge, to cheat him or do him harm. He himself is reputed to have a political orientation considerably to the right of the John Birch Society. Last July 13, when the referee and a committee representing the International Chess Federation refused to revoke the forfeit of the second game—the one at which Fischer failed to appear—Fischer decided to go home, screaming hysterically that the Commies had taken over the Federation, that Iceland was nothing but a Commie country, that the Commies were behind all this.

Fischer changed his mind, decided not to go home, and did play the third and all following games. But he played the third one in a private room. Spassky was accommodating. Nobody in Reykjavik has understood the Russian forbearance under the onslaught of Fischer's demands. Spassky is the world champion and presumably has as much ego and temperament as any other chess player. But he and the members of his delegation have acted like trees caught in a landslide. Down the mountain they plunge. Uprooted, headed for destruction.

To the chess artistry of Bobby Fischer, however, the Russians, like all others, defer. If Fischer has not been playing the best chess of his career in this match, that could well be the result of not being pushed hard enough. The chances are that Fischer as a chess player does not even know his own strength. Had Spassky been making a more powerful effort, Fischer would then have turned on a little more juice. So far, he has been taking care of the champion with a minimum of exertion.

Spassky has given Fischer only one problem he could not solve. In the 11th game Spassky came up with a new move that ruined Fischer's position in the Poisoned Pawn variation of the Sicilian Defense. Fischer lost and kept away from that line thereafter. Otherwise Fischer was on top of Spassky in most of the games, outplaying him in the openings, far ahead of him on the clock, usually keeping the Russian on the defensive. Even with the Black pieces Fischer was on the attack. And, above all, there was his psychological domination over Spassky.

Much has been written about the psychology of chess. The game is, after all, a confrontation between two minds, one trying to conquer the other. Thus it is more than pure logic. Emotion can enter into the result. A set of mannerisms may be enough to throw one's opponent off his game. There have been players—Emanuel Lasker, the world champion from 1894 to 1921 was one such—who deliberately would make inferior moves because they knew their opponents were uncomfortable in certain types of position. Fischer does not work that way. He is interested only in the best move, the most precise move. He dominates his opponent merely by knowing more. That and the pitiless blood lust of his killer instinct—the pronounced element of sadism in him that makes him enjoy seeing his opponents squirm. Fischer does not vary his style from player to player. His approach is in the style of Capablanca —pure, refined, anything but. complex. “He makes a little move here,” says grandmaster Miguel Najdorf of Argentina; “he makes a little move there. Suddenly you are lost.”

Fischer the chess player is a classicist, and that is in total contradiction to the Fischer of everyday life. Over the chessboard—only over the chessboard—is expressed the logic, purity and beauty of his mind. That is his one talent; and in it he is supreme.

Of course, he most likely is the world's only 100 per cent, totally dedicated chess player. Others are distracted by the things that go into living a full life. Chess players, most of them, are married. They read books, go to concerts, chase girls, sell insurance, teach, write. None but the subsidized Russians can live by playing chess and doing nothing else; and even the Russian grandmasters also are physicists, engineers, musicians, economists. Fischer relaxes by bowling, swimming or tennis, but these are short‐term entertainments mostly to help keep him in good physical shape, and they occupy very little of his time. He is never far from chess, and he has not allowed anything to enter his life that will distract him from the only thing he really cares about. All chess players work a great deal at the game. But Fischer works at it totally. As a result of the sudden worldwide publicity about him, everybody now realizes that chess is an intellectual discipline that demands as much study and application as science, music, anything. All that, plus the imagination and creativity that sets the genius from the technician.

Fischer is the complete chess player, but he would not be the incredibly publicized figure he is without his ability to kick up a storm whereever he goes. Whether by design or instinct, he knows exactly how to get the most mileage from his eccentricities. The fact that for the most part he shuns the press—Fischer can never be accused of overexposing himself personally—only adds to his mystery and makes him even better copy. And the more he exerts his crazy kind of fascination, the more chess will flourish.

Chess has gone big league for the first time. When Spassky took the championship from Tigran Petrosian three years ago, he took with it a first prize of $1,400 that was standard prize money in those days. Anyway, gentlemen do not haggle about money. Professional chess players will compete for as little as $500 and expenses. But Fischer is no gentleman. He yells loud and clear for what he thinks is his due. His yells have resulted in a purse of $250,000 for the world championship, of which Fischer will get over $150,000 and Spassky over $90,000.

Ranking chess players all over the Western world are going to regard these amounts of money very thoughtfully. Will a Bent Larsen, a Svetozar Gligoric, a Robert Byrne or any of the non‐Soviet grandmasters any longer play for a $1,500 first prize? Don't be silly. Already sponsors of chess events in decadent capitalistic circles are beginning to get up the cash. They will have no alternative if they want the big names of chess. To be sure, there will not be many $250,000 purses unless Bobby Fischer is around, but neither will a chess player any longer beat out his brains in a 20‐man, monthlong tournament for peanuts. The Russians, who subsidize their chess players, can afford to take a high and mighty moral stance about commercialism in chess. But perhaps Western chess players may now be able to make a living from the game.

Fischer knew this was coming, but even he did not realize the extent of it. Last December he returned to New York after beating Petrosian in Buenos Aires. The purse there was very high for a chess event—$12,000. Frank Brady, the chess historian, claims that as of last year the highest purse in chess history was the $20,000 raised for the Capablanca‐Lasker match in Havana in 1921. Anyway Fischer in New York was talking about his forthcoming match with Spassky. He said that he wouldn't play unless the purse was at least $50,000. There was tolerant laughter. Everybody thought that Fischer was out of his mind. C'mon, Bobby. Be reasonable. Who's going to put up $50,000 for a chess match? No, insisted Fischer.

So the bids were opened in January, and Belgrade offered a purse of $152,000 for the match. Was Fischer happy? No; he wanted more. He wanted a share of the box office receipts. He wanted film and television money. He knew exactly what he wanted; and he got it. As it turned out, he also knew exactly what he didn't want, and one of the things he didn't want in Iceland was film and television coverage. As far as anybody can see, Fischer has turned down an enormous sum involving films and television rights because he did not like the man in charge of it. This sheer affirmation of principle is startling, but it does not especially surprise anybody who knows anything about the weird Fischer principles.

So the world any day will have a new chess champion, but unless Fischer makes a sudden reversal—and he has been known to do just that—the event will be uncommemorated on film. Not that it will make much financial difference in the long run. Already the bids are rolling in. Rumor has it that Fischer's lawyer is sitting on a few mil lion dollars worth of offers, waiting to discuss them with Fischer when he returns as champion. Personal appearances, books, articles, television, simultaneous exhibitions, endorsements, challenges.

It may be that a $1‐million purse is not impossible. Bobby Fischer is a very, very hot show‐biz property, and some people are going to make a lot of money handling his affairs. Suppose IBM wants to publicize a new computer, and programs it for a match with Bobby. What's $1‐million in view of all the publicity that I.B.M. will get? And forget that computers play lousy chess. It's publicity we're talking about, man.

Or suppose a manufacturer of chess sets and other sporting equipment wants to tie Bobby Fischer up in a promotion campaign. Or suppose that Patagonia, Belgravia or Ruritania wants to get the same kind of publicity that Iceland received during the match. What's $1‐million in a government's budget?

But the money is not for chess or chess players. It is for one chess player, and his name is Bobby Fischer. All others will ride along to prosperity with him.

Back in the eighteen‐thirties, Franz Liszt and Sigismond Thalberg, the reigning potentates of the piano, had it out in the salon of the Princess Belgiojoso. They met face to face and tried to play each other under the table. A distinguished audience, the very caviar of European society and music, sat, listened and passed judgment.

Thalberg, it was decided, was the greatest pianist in Europe. And Liszt? He was the only one.

Gynovore
Jun 17, 2009

Forget your RoboCoX or your StickyCoX or your EvilCoX, MY CoX has Blinking Bewbs!

WHY IS THIS GAME DEAD?!

Leperflesh posted:

Anyone paying attention to the current HUGE CONTROVERSY in the world of chess?

Even if this is true, why the gently caress would he use anal beads? Just wire a solenoid into your shoe, like in The Eudaemonic Pie.

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

That's a great article. Fischer was a gigantic rear end in a top hat, I was somehow aware of that even when I was a little kid, probably my stepdad told me about him when he taught me to play.

Gynovore posted:

Even if this is true, why the gently caress would he use anal beads? Just wire a solenoid into your shoe, like in The Eudaemonic Pie.

They wand the players all over, something external like in clothes would probably be detected. It's the full airport treatment plus they look for anything with a radio-frequency response, even an induced one so even a radio receiver that is turned off and unpowered should be detected.

The theory I guess is one inside the body wouldn't be detected but I kinda think it might be, and boy would that be embarrassing huh?

The whole idea is just an unserious suggestion by jokesters that somehow some people have taken seriously.

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003
I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Leperflesh posted:

Teledildonics
You learn something new every day. At least I do.

Leperflesh posted:

The theory I guess is one inside the body wouldn't be detected but I kinda think it might be, and boy would that be embarrassing huh?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAargSCXQaQ

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Sep 14, 2022

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Leperflesh posted:

That's a great article. Fischer was a gigantic rear end in a top hat, I was somehow aware of that even when I was a little kid, probably my stepdad told me about him when he taught me to play.

They wand the players all over, something external like in clothes would probably be detected. It's the full airport treatment plus they look for anything with a radio-frequency response, even an induced one so even a radio receiver that is turned off and unpowered should be detected.

The theory I guess is one inside the body wouldn't be detected but I kinda think it might be, and boy would that be embarrassing huh?

The whole idea is just an unserious suggestion by jokesters that somehow some people have taken seriously.

I guess these folks figure that any signal wouldn't be detected by the scanners up against the body, but would somehow be affected by a transmitter across the room?

It seems to me that regardless of how the guy is allegedly picking it up, someone has to have a way of getting it in there. It's been decades since I watched a pro chess match, but given the measures they took back then to separate the players from the audience I can't imagine they wouldn't have a detector in the room listening for any unexpected signals regardless of where they were coming from.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



Bruceski posted:

I guess these folks figure that any signal wouldn't be detected by the scanners up against the body, but would somehow be affected by a transmitter across the room?

It seems to me that regardless of how the guy is allegedly picking it up, someone has to have a way of getting it in there. It's been decades since I watched a pro chess match, but given the measures they took back then to separate the players from the audience I can't imagine they wouldn't have a detector in the room listening for any unexpected signals regardless of where they were coming from.

Just hoping this leads to a new anti-cheating mandate : Faraday cages.

The room? Giant Faraday cage.

The board? Smaller Faraday cage.

Players? Personal Faraday cages (with little butt-sized Faraday cages inside)

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

Yeah this tournament has a $450k purse, so it's got sufficient incentives to cheat and sufficient money to spend on security.

Xiahou you jest, but Niemann has already said he'd play in a farraday cage if they want to. Or naked.

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Gynovore
Jun 17, 2009

Forget your RoboCoX or your StickyCoX or your EvilCoX, MY CoX has Blinking Bewbs!

WHY IS THIS GAME DEAD?!
Makes you wonder what will happen the day chess gets solved.

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