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jesus WEP posted:i can understand chess.com not wanting to show “here’s the methodology we used to catch someone cheating” for uhh very obvious reasons care to explain for the rest of the class?
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Sep 20, 2022 09:11
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fart simpson posted:care to explain for the rest of the class?
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Sep 20, 2022 09:12
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fart simpson posted:care to explain for the rest of the class? no cheat detection is flawless and they tend to be easily beaten if cheaters know what the algorithm is looking for, because the algorithms don't actually detect cheating, they detect more easily measurable stuff that's correlated with cheating. this isn't a chess only problem, it's common to many games
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Sep 20, 2022 09:12
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thank you.
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Sep 20, 2022 09:14
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Loving Africa Chaps posted:Magnus has to come out and say something even if it's something as simple as "I don't believe someone when they say they've prepped a position i've never played". Chess.com are also behaving badly by not producing at least some evidence. Isn't he specifically not allowed to say anything due to FIDE rules, meaning this 'silent' protest is the only thing in his power?
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Sep 20, 2022 09:29
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I'm not a big chess drama guy, but this seems like Magnus Carlsen just trying to bully hans out of competitive chess right now.
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Sep 20, 2022 14:54
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cheetah7071 posted:no cheat detection is flawless and they tend to be easily beaten if cheaters know what the algorithm is looking for, because the algorithms don't actually detect cheating, they detect more easily measurable stuff that's correlated with cheating. this isn't a chess only problem, it's common to many games But secret methods and secret evidence are (from an outside perspective) indistinguishable from having nothing more than somebody's say-so.
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Sep 20, 2022 15:33
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Redmark posted:After reading about how prevalent online cheating is, not only from Hans, I'm definitely on team chaos. I'm on team "Magnus is an rear end in a top hat" e: to clarify, this was my position before this whole Hans debacle and will almost certainly remain so afterwards qsvui fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Sep 20, 2022 |
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Sep 20, 2022 16:32
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officially, i'm on team "magnus is absolutely being a baby and needs to put some proof on the table or shut up and he especially needs to stop these antics that threaten the competitive integrity of the event (with that win hans is tied for fourth, a draw or a loss would have had him out of top 8). privately i'm on team "after being caught cheating multiple times, hans was always on borrowed time and i hope magnus bullies him out of the sport before quitting himself"
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Sep 20, 2022 16:43
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I'm on team Hans is an idiot and also team Magnus is a baby that has ruined 3 competitions in a row with his tantrums. 1. WC/candidates will I play, won't I play 2. I lost to hans I'm gunna quit the whole tournament 3. Just gunna throw this here match against hans cause I don't wanna play Without any kind of statement. We might all believe its due to cheating suspicions, but given he hasnt officially said anything from a facts standpoint magnus just look like hes trying to wreck every tournament that hes in. It's unacceptable behaviour from a two year old.
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Sep 20, 2022 17:26
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he’s made statements enough on the championship stuff though
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Sep 20, 2022 18:11
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This is just two fewer players I have to climb over to win the title.
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Sep 20, 2022 18:28
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Only thing I can figure that makes sense from Magnus (other than him just being an rear end in a top hat for its own sake) is that didn't Chess.com and Playmagnus merge recently? maybe as part of that he saw the evidence of Hans' cheating and it really pissed him off. How it's all being handled surely makes Chess just look like amateur hour as far as dealing with this issue. There was also that other tournament where Hans beat magnus in their first game and had some really lovely interview and then Magnus smoked him to win the match.
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Sep 20, 2022 19:15
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Hand Knit posted:This is just two fewer players I have to climb over to win the title. Same. That and a missed few decades of chess education. Team Chaos here
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Sep 20, 2022 19:34
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Scipiotik posted:Only thing I can figure that makes sense from Magnus (other than him just being an rear end in a top hat for its own sake) is that didn't Chess.com and Playmagnus merge recently? maybe as part of that he saw the evidence of Hans' cheating and it really pissed him off. How it's all being handled surely makes Chess just look like amateur hour as far as dealing with this issue. There was also that other tournament where Hans beat magnus in their first game and had some really lovely interview and then Magnus smoked him to win the match. Busting out "the chess speaks for itself" before not only tanking the rest of match but getting blown out the whole rest of the tournament whips rear end.
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Sep 20, 2022 19:53
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TheRat posted:Isn't he specifically not allowed to say anything due to FIDE rules, meaning this 'silent' protest is the only thing in his power? Maybe, I couldn't figure out from the FIDE rules whether they penalize for falsely accusing of cheating in a particular event, or just generally, or both. This most recent thing by Magnus is him saying "I don't ever want to play against this guy" through his actions. I think arguably you shouldn't be able to enter tournaments and then quit in bad faith just for that reason.
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Sep 20, 2022 19:58
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Scipiotik posted:Only thing I can figure that makes sense from Magnus (other than him just being an rear end in a top hat for its own sake) is that didn't Chess.com and Playmagnus merge recently? maybe as part of that he saw the evidence of Hans' cheating and it really pissed him off. How it's all being handled surely makes Chess just look like amateur hour as far as dealing with this issue. There was also that other tournament where Hans beat magnus in their first game and had some really lovely interview and then Magnus smoked him to win the match. It could be.. Levon Aronian gave an interview the other day where he said that he understood where Magnus was coming from and more or less that he hopes this will teach Hans a lesson and that he will stop doing what he's been doing.. or something to that effect. Then he went on about how if the Chess world just spent a fraction of it's resources on the problem it could be fixed no problem (???) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JmZJC4Ltqs Aronian's answers seemed kind of weird to me given how everyone else is approaching this... I hope everything comes out *some day, recognizing that even if the worst is true it doesn't excuse Magnus ruining tournament after tournament lol Starsfan fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Sep 20, 2022 |
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Sep 20, 2022 20:07
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Starsfan posted:It could be.. Levon Aronian gave an interview the other day where he said that he understood where Magnus was coming from and more or less that he hopes this will teach Hans a lesson and that he will stop doing what he's been doing.. or something to that effect. Then he went on about how if the Chess world just spent a fraction of it's resources on the problem it could be fixed no problem (???) this really resonates with me as a competitive trivia player -- every online competition (along with many live) has some number of people cheating (usually a shitload) despite whatever safeguards are put in place. most commissioners are afraid to look too hard at cheating because statistically some number of their close friends are probably doing it (and the utterly insane trivia people might sue them for libel or some poo poo) (now, trivia is mostly meaningless and doesn't have any of professional chess's prestige but i can certainly identify with the frustration that obvious cheaters just aren't ever investigated and people get a million extra chances once they ARE caught)
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Sep 20, 2022 20:33
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This was the statement from Rensch and chess.com last week:quote:Dear Chess Community, so one unanswered question is what exactly is in that dossier of "detailed evidence" they sent him and if anyone is tempted to leak it. rollick fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Sep 20, 2022 |
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Sep 20, 2022 20:43
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You know, Nieman is clearly a very strong player. I don't think anyone doubts that. But when it comes to cheating, you don't necessarily even need for the computer to tell you what to do; just the fact that SOMETHING is there is often times a big enough hint. Look at puzzle positions - especially in the more difficult puzzles, it's sometimes only because it's a puzzle that the answer gets found, whereas you might play a much more natural move OTB. You could get a signal that there's a big advantage you could gain on the next move, or that it's a dangerous position where maybe natural moves are traps, or that the opponent just blundered, etc. Cheating doesn't have to mean the computer feeding you every move. It can be much more subtle and that much more difficult to detect. totalnewbie fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Sep 20, 2022 |
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Sep 20, 2022 22:04
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rollick posted:This was the statement from Rensch and chess.com last week: im tempted, but i dont have the data
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Sep 21, 2022 01:27
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I just think Magnus needs to either say something or stop being such a huge baby about the thing. I've never even heard of Hans before this year and now I'm becoming a big fan of that guy being able to trigger Magnus like that. Maybe this is just me being old, but I just think that online cheating is, to be honest, not that big of a deal, not that I would be happy if somebody did it to me, and totally different than cheating OTB. I think there's just zero chance Hans has or is cheating OTB.
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Sep 21, 2022 02:40
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gret posted:I just think Magnus needs to either say something or stop being such a huge baby about the thing. I've never even heard of Hans before this year and now I'm becoming a big fan of that guy being able to trigger Magnus like that. Maybe this is just me being old, but I just think that online cheating is, to be honest, not that big of a deal, not that I would be happy if somebody did it to me, and totally different than cheating OTB. I think there's just zero chance Hans has or is cheating OTB. Cheating in online money tournaments is total bullshit what on earth are you talking about.
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Sep 21, 2022 02:44
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Not that it's not dirty, but there's also a big difference between cheating when you're just some rando who got frustrated at losing and when you're a loving GM (or IM or whatever highly rated player).
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Sep 21, 2022 02:51
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totalnewbie posted:You know, Nieman is clearly a very strong player. I don't think anyone doubts that. But when it comes to cheating, you don't necessarily even need for the computer to tell you what to do; just the fact that SOMETHING is there is often times a big enough hint. Look at puzzle positions - especially in the more difficult puzzles, it's sometimes only because it's a puzzle that the answer gets found, whereas you might play a much more natural move OTB. You could get a signal that there's a big advantage you could gain on the next move, or that it's a dangerous position where maybe natural moves are traps, or that the opponent just blundered, etc. Yeah I think Magnus himself mentioned this at one point before this whole thing blew up (not necessarily related to Hans Nieman I think) but if he had the ability to get just 2 computer moves in an entire game at his discretion he would literally never lose to anyone at his level of strength. These players are so closely matched in skill that the smallest edge at the critical moment would make the difference.
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Sep 21, 2022 03:13
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he would only lose to people below his level of strength? theres nobody at any levels above him
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Sep 21, 2022 03:14
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Starsfan posted:Yeah I think Magnus himself mentioned this at one point before this whole thing blew up (not necessarily related to Hans Nieman I think) but if he had the ability to get just 2 computer moves in an entire game at his discretion he would literally never lose to anyone at his level of strength. These players are so closely matched in skill that the smallest edge at the critical moment would make the difference. I know Kramnik has said that if he had a buzzer whenever the position hit ~0.3 (or -0.3) in evaluation he'd be invincible. Doesn't even have to give moves, just know that it's +/=
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Sep 21, 2022 03:22
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Starsfan posted:Yeah I think Magnus himself mentioned this at one point before this whole thing blew up (not necessarily related to Hans Nieman I think) but if he had the ability to get just 2 computer moves in an entire game at his discretion he would literally never lose to anyone at his level of strength. These players are so closely matched in skill that the smallest edge at the critical moment would make the difference. Top-level chess players are surreal. If you gave me two computer moves I'm not even sure my rating would improve.
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Sep 21, 2022 03:34
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Captain von Trapp posted:Top-level chess players are surreal. If you gave me two computer moves I'm not even sure my rating would improve. You're not supposed to use them in the first 5 moves!
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Sep 21, 2022 03:35
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idk i think even at my level if i had a little buzzer that let me know when there’s a tactical sequence and i should stop and treat it like a puzzle, that would help bigly
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Sep 21, 2022 03:38
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In the last speedrun video Naroditsky talked about the 5th american chess congress tournament. They apparently had a cake with this puzzle written on it which captivated the playing hall: White to move and checkmate in 2.  https://lichess.org/analysis/4k1b1/4PNPn/4Rn2/K5p1/3R2P1/5Q2/8/8_w_-_-_0_1?color=white
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Sep 21, 2022 03:45
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Salt Fish posted:In the last speedrun video Naroditsky talked about the 5th american chess congress tournament. They apparently had a cake with this puzzle written on it which captivated the playing hall: I think it's 1.Rd7 I found that through the challenge being what to do about black playing Kxf7. Given that Kxf7 opens up Kxg7 the next move, there aren't very many options to deal with that so you start looking for moves that can address it. That's basically just knight moves and Rd7 so far as I can tell. e: Okay, to go through all the variations: 1...Kxd7 2.Qc6# 1... Kxf7 2.e8=Q# 1... Bxf7 2.Rd8# 1... Nxd7 2.Nd6# 1... Nf8 2.exf8=N# 1... Nd5/e4/xg4/h5 2.Rd8# I think that's it.
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Sep 21, 2022 03:49
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gret posted:Maybe this is just me being old, but I just think that online cheating is, to be honest, not that big of a deal I don’t think it’s that you’re old, you just have abysmal judgment
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Sep 21, 2022 03:58
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Captain von Trapp posted:Top-level chess players are surreal. If you gave me two computer moves I'm not even sure my rating would improve. I'm rated 1200 on chess.com; I just tried a game against the 1500 bot with two hints allowed. The hints managed to bail me out of losing positions twice, and then, with my hints gone, I tried to march my king across the board to help promote a pawn and got checkmated by my opponent's two rooks.
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Sep 21, 2022 04:53
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Starsfan posted:Yeah I think Magnus himself mentioned this at one point before this whole thing blew up (not necessarily related to Hans Nieman I think) but if he had the ability to get just 2 computer moves in an entire game at his discretion he would literally never lose to anyone at his level of strength. These players are so closely matched in skill that the smallest edge at the critical moment would make the difference. Magnus did a podcast about a year ago in Norwegian where he said that if he had 1 or 2 times during a game where a signal told him that his position was critical in some way he would practically never lose. He wouldn't need to know the moves, just that there was a move. E: It's in this 10-minute video where he talks about cheating https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcbHmHHwlUQ
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Sep 21, 2022 04:59
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lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qexW6W0e2Sc
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Sep 21, 2022 05:49
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Salt Fish posted:Cheating in online money tournaments is total bullshit what on earth are you talking about. eh, even online money tournaments aren't as A Big Deal as OTB. they're online video games, of course people are going to cheat in them.
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Sep 21, 2022 06:06
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cheaters spotted
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Sep 21, 2022 06:26
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This is amazing
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Sep 21, 2022 06:51
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if anyone needs to get caught up here’s a quick rundown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umaHIQJY6Tw
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Sep 21, 2022 11:56
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