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i think the f-117 shootdown was a combination of the air defense either getting information on where the f-117 was going to be or it flying routinely, the radar operators tinkering with them enough to actually get a return above background, and the electronic warfare aircraft that would normally support the f-117 being absent that time. stealth isn't actually hyped up that much militarily unlike most of the modern wunderwaffen. it's a legitimate part of any survivability onion. there are probably a lot of things within stealth that take on wunderwaffen characteristics within the modern western military but the real big failure point is operational/logistical fuckups like the f-117 shootdown. which is how the us will lose ww3
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Sep 25, 2022 18:52
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Foo Diddley posted:well just pay attention to the birds that are going mach 2 i guess https://twitter.com/Flankerchan/status/1572590180938420230
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Sep 25, 2022 18:55
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the night witches remain the TRUE stealth
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Sep 25, 2022 21:02
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Cuttlefush posted:i think the f-117 shootdown was a combination of the air defense either getting information on where the f-117 was going to be or it flying routinely, the radar operators tinkering with them enough to actually get a return above background, and the electronic warfare aircraft that would normally support the f-117 being absent that time. stealth isn't actually hyped up that much militarily unlike most of the modern wunderwaffen. it's a legitimate part of any survivability onion. there are probably a lot of things within stealth that take on wunderwaffen characteristics within the modern western military but the real big failure point is operational/logistical fuckups like the f-117 shootdown. which is how the us will lose ww3 In the 90s it was. Drones, Saint Javlien and HIMARS have nothing on the hype that stealth was given in proaganda in the 90s
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Sep 25, 2022 21:06
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Cuttlefush posted:i think the f-117 shootdown was a combination of the air defense either getting information on where the f-117 was going to be or it flying routinely, the radar operators tinkering with them enough to actually get a return above background, and the electronic warfare aircraft that would normally support the f-117 being absent that time. stealth isn't actually hyped up that much militarily unlike most of the modern wunderwaffen. it's a legitimate part of any survivability onion. there are probably a lot of things within stealth that take on wunderwaffen characteristics within the modern western military but the real big failure point is operational/logistical fuckups like the f-117 shootdown. which is how the us will lose ww3 yeah it was mostly due to nato complacency. The planes kept flying the same path so the Serbs put a spotter team near the Italian airbase they took off from to announce when one was beginning its bombing run. From that SAM operator just waited until it opened its payload doors to drop bombs at which point he got a usable radar return
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Sep 25, 2022 21:08
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Yeah, RCS isn’t universal since there are different radar systems of different strengths and bands. You have to look at what variables they are using. Both Russia and China have been using very large L band arrays at low frequency to do basic air defense and tracking while they have been tying other systems together including radar drones (the Chinese are at least) to do targeting. Stealth aircraft are not invisible to either power, but they do need several systems working together to target aircraft. As far as air duels it is a bit of a toss up. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 21:17 on Sep 25, 2022 |
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Sep 25, 2022 21:13
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Goast posted:the word suicide drone is very funny there's a pigeon inside
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Sep 25, 2022 21:14
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was it? i mean i played as much commanche as anyone but the f117 did a lot of bombing in yugoslavia and iraq for only one loss. b2 even more. compared to the vast majority of things that get hype those at least appeared to actually work. i feel like i got tricked into handing it to the us air force but you have to understand that the bar was very, very low after the lawn dart years. f117 shouldnt even loving fly really looks like a stupid rear end triangle brick
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Sep 25, 2022 21:20
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Cuttlefush posted:was it? i mean i played as much commanche as anyone but the f117 did a lot of bombing in yugoslavia and iraq for only one loss. b2 even more. compared to the vast majority of things that get hype those at least appeared to actually work. i feel like i got tricked into handing it to the us air force but you have to understand that the bar was very, very low after the lawn dart years. Well they could work against a country with limited or old air defense at the time, and in both cases the US already had air supremacy. The B2 though was designed to be a nuclear bomber that was going to conduct strikes in Russia, and by the time it was fully operational in 2003, the Russians could almost certainly track it and at least have interceptors go after them.
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Sep 25, 2022 21:29
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that's alt history at this point. the purpose of a wunderwaffe is what it did. also what are the odds that all that poo poo was designed for colonial police actions because everyone at the table knew open war would be nothing but nukes? i really don't know. edit: sorry, I'm basically making a dumb point that is immaterial to the fact that the US will lose WW3 due to pedantic goonbrain kicking in. i really should just say that however dumb the 80s/90s air force was they still had their poo poo more together than their 2020s counterparts. Cuttlefush has issued a correction as of 21:43 on Sep 25, 2022 |
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Sep 25, 2022 21:32
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Raskolnikov38 posted:yeah it was mostly due to nato complacency. The planes kept flying the same path so the Serbs put a spotter team near the Italian airbase they took off from to announce when one was beginning its bombing run. From that SAM operator just waited until it opened its payload doors to drop bombs at which point he got a usable radar return US Strikes followed the exact same route for Linebacker II as well. It’s a level of complacency I don’t really understand in a war zone.
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Sep 25, 2022 21:42
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HallelujahLee posted:i dont think the uk is capable of invading anyone at all their military is a complete joke and almost non-existent also as mentioned their carrier (brand new) doesnt event function Remember the plot of the hit James Bond film, "Tomorrow's Never Dies" where the UK is gearing up for war with China by sailing its only fleet to Asia?  lol
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Sep 25, 2022 21:50
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byAfBdVTgT8 tell hulk hogan to tweet he just landed in hot atlanta
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Sep 25, 2022 21:53
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what a loving waste of jonathan pryce that movie was lol
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Sep 25, 2022 21:59
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Frosted Flake posted:US Strikes followed the exact same route for Linebacker II as well. It’s a level of complacency I don’t really understand in a war zone. el problema en es capitalismo Flying the same route over and over is efficient
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Sep 26, 2022 00:50
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Rupert Murdoch was a fine Bond villain for that moment in the End of History
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Sep 26, 2022 01:15
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https://twitter.com/zhao_dashuai/status/1573645828774055937 PLAGF taking laser tag to the next level including artillery too.
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Sep 26, 2022 01:42
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its hard to get combat experiance when the peer war is over in 30 minutes
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Sep 26, 2022 02:57
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i think the zumwalt looks cool
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Sep 26, 2022 06:27
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tumblehome hull is neat and old timey combine that with disruptive camouflage and a catamaran and you might have something going 
Cuttlefush has issued a correction as of 06:43 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 06:34
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Seems like stealth tech is basically obsolete at this point in any modern war scenario. I can’t speak to DoD stuff but even civilian tech is advanced enough to detect and identify objects with profiles well below the noise floor. Algorithms have come a long way and it seems unlikely that anyone is looking at radar signatures deciding if it’s a bird or not in 2022.
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Sep 26, 2022 06:52
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an actual war would be very noisy in the spectra of interest and literally chaotic and noisy. the idea isn't for stealth to make something invisible to something pinging right on it with nothing else going on, it's to give it a few moments or so of an algorithm, operator, or command not being sure of what they are looking at. stealth as a concept isn't bullshit, but the notion that you can make something completely passively undetectable probably is in in most real world scenarios. stealth as a way to make it harder to positively identify something is and always has been legitimate. whether modern 'stealth' aircraft actually do that I can't really say for sure. without material knowledge you have to rely on very biased accounts. and without a full blown war nobody really knows to what extent the current state of stealth is or is not a bunch of bullshit. my hunch is that institutional stability or decay will matter more than any individual technology if a magical ww3 without nukes were to happen as long as there was relative technological and material parity otherwise Cuttlefush has issued a correction as of 07:16 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 07:01
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Stealth still helps you not get killed in various situations, especially in air to air combat where the planes and missiles themselves have lower power radar and are ducking behind hills and whatnot. Radar is not a perfect lock on solution and you’re dead system.
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Sep 26, 2022 07:15
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I suppose in a real war situation you'd just have to start shooting at everything, flocks of birds or civilian airplanes be damned. The concept of radar drone screen is intriguing, although I'm not sure how many thousands or millions you'd need to realistically survey an entire national border.
palindrome has issued a correction as of 07:23 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 07:21
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yeah as long as you have the infinite ammo bandana you can just launch giant SAA missiles at anything you can get any kind of lock on. as long as you are ok with eating an anti-radiation missile or a cruise missile since turning on your active radar or launching will make it obvious where and what you are. all of this stuff sounds stupid and fake in a vacuum but it was all part of organic arms races back when things weren't quite yet at 100% grift.
Cuttlefush has issued a correction as of 07:25 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 07:22
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iron dome, but for offense
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Sep 26, 2022 07:23
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palindrome posted:I suppose in a real war situation you'd just have to start shooting at everything, flocks of birds or civilian airplanes be damned. The idea of a screen of radar drones is intriguing, although I'm not sure how many thousands or millions you'd need to realistically survey an entire national border. The launch parameters for missiles succeeding are nailed down pretty tightly and pilots tend not to waste missiles on low percentage shots. Their radar will tell them what is a tiny drone and what is a real airplane and what type.
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Sep 26, 2022 07:27
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Oh I thought the idea was ground based sam installations, or whatever the anti drone counter measures turn out to be. Is the future of warfare drones vs anti drone drones? Two American football games were halted for several minutes this weekend due to drones so the threat is real.
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Sep 26, 2022 07:30
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palindrome posted:iron dome, but for offense  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxnC6jkJyEM
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Sep 26, 2022 07:41
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palindrome posted:Oh I thought the idea was ground based sam installations, or whatever the anti drone counter measures turn out to be. Is the future of warfare drones vs anti drone drones? Two American football games were halted for several minutes this weekend due to drones so the threat is real. surface to air installations are still governed by the same fundamentals as a jet firing a missile. the radar tied to any ground-based missile will need to identify/lock something within a given time/space envelope that its missile will be able to intercept. they have the benefit of being able to fire much, much bigger missiles and generally having multiple types of more powerful radar too. downside is they don't get to start with the same amount of energy as something fired from a jet. for the most part drones are still in their infancy. the most sophisticated drones are still extremely slow reconnaissance/air to ground weapons platforms. if you wanted to make them shoot down jets, you'd be better off with some kind of surface-to-air weapon instead. to have something equivalent to a manned fighter but a drone you'd need to overcome some automation and/or electronic warfare hurdles. you can't rely on someone just controlling it remotely the entire time.
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Sep 26, 2022 07:45
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yeah let's make skynet hunter-killers
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Sep 26, 2022 07:48
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return to traditional autocannon anti air artillery
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Sep 26, 2022 07:49
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Rutibex posted:yeah let's make skynet hunter-killers you can't stop lockmart from doing it
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Sep 26, 2022 08:02
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I'm thinking if an F35b costs $100 million to produce, someone might be able to find a way to accomplish the same goal, or perhaps defeat the fighter jet for less money. You could have 10,000 somethings that each cost $10,000 to make, for example. Or lets be generous and say a lockmart hunter killer costs $1 million each, you'd still get quite a few and could eliminate pilots or just shoot them into jet engines while flying or whatever. Just thinking outside the box though, doesn't have to be drones. the missile massacre weapon looks intriguing and I propose we put some research points into that part of the tech tree.
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Sep 26, 2022 08:14
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palindrome posted:I'm thinking if an F35b costs $100 million to produce, someone might be able to find a way to accomplish the same goal, or perhaps defeat the fighter jet for less money. You could have 10,000 somethings that each cost $10,000 to make, for example. Or lets be generous and say a lockmart hunter killer costs $1 million each, you'd still get quite a few and could eliminate pilots or just shoot them into jet engines while flying or whatever. Just thinking outside the box though, doesn't have to be drones. the missile massacre weapon looks intriguing and I propose we put some research points into that part of the tech tree. the things that can shoot down jets are way more expensive. an S-400 SAM is on the order of $300 million or so. Not sure how much the individual missiles are. At least a few million each for the cheapish modern ones.
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Sep 26, 2022 08:19
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dang, that's a hefty price tag. pilot training probably costs more than sam crew training (maybe) but I see your point. perhaps in the future there will be a better way to drop bombs on people, or stop bombs from being dropped on people.
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Sep 26, 2022 08:23
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.blowing up stuff on the airfield is a legit way to stop planes from flying contemporaneously atm russia's dealing with the problem of bad flying stuff by throwing every kind of anti-air missile at it be it some cheap dji mavic to wonder himars to a jet plane. wasteful but better than losing the entire thing and the stuff and people it's supposed to be protecting. but there's only like one other competitor with russia's level of air defense and that's their bff the people's republic of china. usa has basically no air defense outside of stingers and guns once it steps away from boats and the air force isn't there to save the day. i mean i guess there's patriots but lmao at those.
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Sep 26, 2022 08:23
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Rutibex posted:yeah let's make skynet hunter-killers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKYNET_(surveillance_program) quote:The SKYNET project was linked with drone systems, thus creating the potential for false-positives to lead to deaths.[1][5]
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Sep 26, 2022 09:56
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Cuttlefush posted:as long as you are ok with eating an anti-radiation missile or a cruise missile since turning on your active radar or launching will make it obvious where and what you are. This is an important point - anti-air radar is an EM Christmas tree and someone is probably going to launch a missile at it pre-emptively and definitely going to launch a missile when it turns on
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Sep 26, 2022 16:41
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drat thats cool as hell
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