|
Third World Reagan posted:While that may be true I have seen a lot of people from world of tanks show off how great they are with like a 40% win rate. If baseball batters can be considered amazing when they hit the ball 50% of the time then the same can be said for tank game
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2022 04:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 13, 2024 05:16 |
|
|
Third World Reagan posted:While that may be true I have seen a lot of people from world of tanks show off how great they are with like a 40% win rate. you're only good at world of tanks if you get arrested for revealing classified tank specs on their forums
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2022 04:59
|
|
|
Dik Hz posted:The fundamental problem is that people think PvP is fair if they win 70% of the time. The stats I've seen are: PVPers want to win 70% of the time, however winning does not always mean killing, accomplishing or blocking the other players objective feels like a win too. PVEers forced into a PVP situation want to win 70% of the time or better AND/OR have a means of succeeding at their objective. Winning here means not getting killed, accomplishing an objective, sometimes killing the aggressor, or driving off the aggressor. Total Loss of more then 50% of PVP encounters (Think domination, not fights where both are at real risk) cause players to quit in short order. This is not only found in EvE but even games like Cryofall with its clear PVP / PVE split and lack of mechanisms for easy catchup as well as its lack of anti griefing systems. Games with clear PVE and only occasional PVP (like WoW) simply win here because PVP is voluntary now a days. When you get into PVP games that also demand PVE things get a bit strange. EvE solves this with "Safe" areas and lawless areas (But you have lots of ability to see PVP coming). Smaller games need anti griefing, larger games need safer areas that are not gimped to the point of uselessness
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2022 07:22
|
|
|
CuddleCryptid posted:If baseball batters can be considered amazing when they hit the ball 50% of the time then the same can be said for tank game Yeah but usually when a batter misses a ball they don’t then have to run for 10 minutes to pick the ball up before they can try again.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2022 14:10
|
|
|
Imo in order to make pvping more engaging it has to be more involved than merely killing other players. Things like supply lines etc. It's why games like foxhole have a good conceit (albeit iffy implementation)
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2022 15:15
|
|
|
jokes posted:Determining if open-world PVP is good or bad has to include the lovely parts, and being killed by people you have absolutely no chance of beating is an objectively bad paradigm. ime sometimes if it's incentivized properly a bunch of players will band together to protect new ones that are struggling and that dynamic can lead to positive social experiences that greatly offset the bad ones
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2022 16:49
|
|
|
Catgirl Al Capone posted:ime sometimes if it's incentivized properly a bunch of players will band together to protect new ones that are struggling and that dynamic can lead to positive social experiences that greatly offset the bad ones While that is true and does happen sometimes, my experience playing WoW back in the day usually was lowbie gets ganked, calls in general chat for help, and is either ignored or told "LOL welcome to PvP servers scrub". Not related to Catgirl Al Capone's statement, but my general thoughts on PvE and PvP: I've played a lot of MMOs and IMO the only PvP models that work are segregated PvP areas, whether they're instances, separate zones, or sections of zones (RvR lakes in Warhammer, for example), or sandbox PvP games like EVE. I also think that, in the first instance, a game can either have really good PvP or really good PvE, but not both. It's probably not impossible that there's some game that can pull off the platonic ideal and have excellent PvE AND excellent PvP, but it hasn't happened yet. EDIT: Oh, you did say "incentivized properly" and I think you're right, and WoW really didn't have much incentive for that kind of thing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2022 17:13
|
|
|
Third World Reagan posted:While that may be true I have seen a lot of people from world of tanks show off how great they are with like a 40% win rate. That is fair in my opinion and experience with playing World of Tanks for years back in the day. It's such a team based heavy game, and your win rate is determined by the rest of your team. You can be really good individually, but still lose a lot because the rest of your team AFKs which was super common. I kinda miss WoT, but I don't think many people play it anymore? And the grind after tier 5 was way too much.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2022 17:20
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:That is fair in my opinion and experience with playing World of Tanks for years back in the day. It's such a team based heavy game, and your win rate is determined by the rest of your team. You can be really good individually, but still lose a lot because the rest of your team AFKs which was super common. I kinda miss WoT, but I don't think many people play it anymore? And the grind after tier 5 was way too much. I would always see people blame their team for having pubbies but the math never added up. Your team has 14 pubbies and the enemy team has 15 pubbies. The common denominator is normally the player.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2022 18:06
|
|
|
Third World Reagan posted:I would always see people blame their team for having pubbies but the math never added up. That's fair, I mean honestly I was a mad because bad player myself.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2022 20:01
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:That is fair in my opinion and experience with playing World of Tanks for years back in the day. It's such a team based heavy game, and your win rate is determined by the rest of your team. You can be really good individually, but still lose a lot because the rest of your team AFKs which was super common. I kinda miss WoT, but I don't think many people play it anymore? And the grind after tier 5 was way too much. Over long enough time spans that effect evens out. For every game where your team was poo poo, you'll have a game where the other team was poo poo. If someone played a few hundred games and has a below 50% winrate, they are a below average player.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2022 21:48
|
|
|
The problem with PVP in a game like wow is that the difference in player power level can be so great that no level of skill can overcome it. When gear and level difference means you can oneshot other players. This in turn appeals to the kind of shitlers who spend all day camping low level quest areas on their max level rogues. In a game like EVE it does work, because such differences are smaller, and to the extent that they are there, are achieved by risking more expensive gear
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2022 22:33
|
|
|
Philonius posted:The problem with PVP in a game like wow is that the difference in player power level can be so great that no level of skill can overcome it. When gear and level difference means you can oneshot other players. This in turn appeals to the kind of shitlers who spend all day camping low level quest areas on their max level rogues. EVE is interesting in that way in that a frigate can't really do anything to a capital ship, but the capital ship can't do anything *back* either unless it gets extremely lucky with the ship pathfinding. The issue with most mmos in terms of swarm tactics is that the big guy can swat the little ones like they are nothing, but if you swarm a ship with enough fast little ones you can really take it down so long as it doesn't have support. You get two ships together though and you're hosed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2022 22:41
|
|
|
I wonder how PvP has changed in Eve now that the population has dropped significantly, many players are playing multiple accounts at once, and the monthly fee is now $20.
|
|
#
?
Sep 24, 2022 23:15
|
|
|
I've never heard of an MMO increasing it's monthly costs, that's crazy. How has Blizzard not found a way to create a tiered monthly subscription model yet? $15/m - Silver $20/m - Gold $30/m - Platinum Platinum gives you a special title and "Veteran" hat.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 00:26
|
|
|
My hope is that WoW will be available for everyone with a Ultimate Game Pass sub.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 00:49
|
|
|
Cardboard Fox posted:I've never heard of an MMO increasing it's monthly costs, that's crazy. EQ's original subscription fee was 9.89 a month (it was made by Verant and 989 Studios) and was raised to 14.99 after WoW made that the norm.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 01:19
|
|
|
Been spitballing a pvp flagging and loot system for a while now. Gist of it is a maze running game (zelda rooms) where you can be completely solo (blue), co-op pvp (yellow), or agro pvp (red).
There will likely be a loot/progression bonus of some kind on the PvE side of things for being yellow and even more for red, but that's the divisions I like for now. Thoughts? Ranzear fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Sep 25, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 03:27
|
|
|
Cardboard Fox posted:I've never heard of an MMO increasing it's monthly costs, that's crazy. Plenty have. They added cash shops which made people pay more per month. Or battle passes. They take items that would be brought to the player to earn in game and put them in cash shops. There is always a way.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 05:28
|
|
|
Cardboard Fox posted:I've never heard of an MMO increasing it's monthly costs, that's crazy. Blizzard has increased sub prices a couple of times. Just not in the USA.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 05:34
|
|
|
I'm not the person to comment, talk of reds and blues and whatnot sends me all cross-eyed after UO. Looking at MMO PVP from a different angle I feel like Battle Royales taught us that players don't mind losing so long as they can easily move on from the loss. If I die in a BR I just load up another game. My loss is entirely wiped, all the stuff I lost I would ALSO lose on a win. And I'm expected to re-gear, it's part of the gameplay itself, not some punishment inflicted on me because I got killed. Roguelites have also shown that there's a bunch of players who are much happier with death if again 1) gearing up is a central part of the loop 2) loss of what you have is expected 3) you get/can get some permanent reward regardless of dying. The MMO that manages to get that kind of feeling for MMO PVP could really take off.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 05:45
|
|
|
I think it's easy to overlook the lesson of nuketown from call of duty. Specifically that quite a lot of people just want to get back into the fight and fight someone, anyone, really fast. A themepark mmo can't balance for pvp, can't get people back into the fray fast enough and frankly can't offer the gameplay purists enough to get their teeth into because once you have 20 classes that all require a pianist to play correctly you've got something other than a pure pvp experience. Doesn't mean we all have to play FPS games since other genres can mimic aspects but the lessons from the successful ones needs to be kept in mind.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 09:27
|
|
|
i'd love to see numbers for something like revenue from subs vs cosmetic microtransactions vs p2w microtransactions
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 15:06
|
|
|
all war-based pvp mmos should allow players to fire themselves out of cannons right into the frontlines
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 15:16
|
|
|
Catgirl Al Capone posted:all war-based pvp mmos should allow players to fire themselves out of cannons right into the frontlines if there is siege weaponry involved, you must allow the smallest race of every side/realm to be loaded into a treb and yeeted over the wall or across the field.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 15:54
|
|
|
Phigs posted:*** I'm skeptical. Personally, I quit WoW when the development focus seemed to switch from PvE to battlegrounds, as the need for 'PvP balance' was forcing character/ability/gear design to be pretty one-dimensional (maybe it has changed for the better in the ~decade since I left... Blizzard can  any idea they can conceive)Now, I understand that PVP generates free content, and that's *very* appealing to developers. I also understand that it's really hard to create content that appeals to both organized try-hards and casuals. But...trying to shoehorn everything into the same framework has downsides, too.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 16:06
|
|
|
Ranzear posted:Been spitballing a pvp flagging and loot system for a while now. Gist of it is a maze running game (zelda rooms) where you can be completely solo (blue), co-op pvp (yellow), or agro pvp (red). What are players supposed to do while waiting around for door timers? Blue players especially, are going to be upset if they can be forced to do nothing for extended periods of time just because someone else went through a door before them. After all, they signed up to play without being negatively impacted by other people. Escaping out a door makes for a cool scene in a movie or a story, but I'm not sure Red players are going to be any happier about their prey dramatically escaping and locking a door behind them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 16:08
|
|
|
i never witnessed it firsthand but ive heard lots of stories about how the ctf pvp mode in wow had druids holding the flag do benny hill chases around the map and all pvp should be like that
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 16:30
|
|
|
Catgirl Al Capone posted:i never witnessed it firsthand but ive heard lots of stories about how the ctf pvp mode in wow had druids holding the flag do benny hill chases around the map and all pvp should be like that Have witnessed it before, definitely happens. I was never good at it myself. My favorite moment was the random queue that somehow ended up with 1 paladin and 9 rogues on Warsong. More than half the enemy quit playing within a few minutes and just sat at the graveyard, meanwhile the paladin would stop in the middle of the map and dance for a bit while she carried the flag. Wherever you are, random human paladin lady I got constantly queued into an afternoon of 20's bracket PVP with, you made for pretty much the only fun times I had with PvP. That and the horde bank alt who'd hang out with me fishing in Booty Bay between queues. It's a shame I never saw them again. Good moments in a sea of phlegm
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 16:53
|
|
|
Warhammer online had a good way of doing optional pvp in the form of public quests. The problem is the majority of the pvp public quests were in dwarf / greenskin land and the game didn't work that well at launch for most pve content. If you died, you came back fast. You got experience and gear for just participating. If no enemy showed up, you could still kill npcs to progress. It was trying to recreate the larger daoc pvpve into a smaller arena, and that was good, if it wasn't for everything else that didn't work. In the same thought, Dark and Darker is doing a test on steam right now, it is just a battle royale dnd dungeon with pve elements. If you die, you get into the next match really fast. That is good. It is pretty close to being a good game.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 17:44
|
|
|
Does the private Warhammer server whose name I forget follow the same basic formula, or has it changed substantially, anyone know?
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2022 21:52
|
|
|
It is pretty close to live. A lot of things are still broken. PvE is still awful. The problems with RvR design are still there.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2022 00:55
|
|
|
LLSix posted:What are players supposed to do while waiting around for door timers? Blue players especially, are going to be upset if they can be forced to do nothing for extended periods of time just because someone else went through a door before them. There are nonplayer enemies in each room too. There are multiple doors to a room, but only the door one just came from closes so one can't just backtrack out of the room immediately. Similar to Binding of Isaac or something, but just the one door is closed. Yellows would probably have the shortest lock time so they have an easier time sticking together but are also more easily pursued by reds. Reds would have a longer lock time to prevent pursuit. Blues kinda don't interact with it the same way but it could be even longer to force them more towards the PvE in front of them each room. There should be enough doors and movement speed from room to room to be able to cut someone off, especially if you know the parallel rooms are already cleared. There's an entirely separate PvP system aside from these flags that is the secret sauce of the game and blue will still interact with, I just like having opt-in pvp and even opt-in high-risk full loot. Ranzear fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Sep 26, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2022 02:05
|
|
|
Third World Reagan posted:In the same thought, Dark and Darker is doing a test on steam right now, it is just a battle royale dnd dungeon with pve elements. If you die, you get into the next match really fast. That is good. It is pretty close to being a good game. I gave this a shot and it is fun. Combat is pretty clunky but I like how they do spells.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2022 05:37
|
|
|
Phigs posted:I'm not the person to comment, talk of reds and blues and whatnot sends me all cross-eyed after UO. What does it mean to be an MMO without a persistent world
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2022 09:37
|
|
|
Nothing I said makes a persistent world impossible. Imagine an MMO "Battle Royale" where the world doesn't restart constantly and instead people and places respawn over time and there is no dwindling circle. People spawn in without items and they're tasked with quickly finding their items and maybe even leveling up their characters. Then you've got resources around that you gather the same way as your gear, and you can kill players to get a % of the resources they've gathered and their gear. Every player dies after a certain amount of time and has to respawn just like as if they died. They can also get to special locations on the map to bank their full resources and respawn. The resources you gather pay for a meta progression that gives you better/different starting characters/items or lets you level up into different specs or make different gear or whatever. The characters can be your clones or summons or something like that. The world persists, the characters don't. Or keep the characters and just reset their gear. Or whatever, this is just a quick idea to illustrate a possibility, not a game pitch.  Point is this way you focus on making a game that is fun to regear/relevel because players are expected to do it always, and nobody loses anything beyond a % of gathered resources on death because they were going to lose all that anyway. I think a central problem of PVP in a lot of MMOs is you have a game where players want to make vertical progress and then somehow expect them to be okay with someone coming along and setting them backwards on that progress. Ideally you'd want to somehow make a game where the consequences of being killed are themselves desirable, that it is part of the gameplay loop such that players would be wanting to engage in it if they like the game. Phigs fucked around with this message at 11:24 on Sep 26, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2022 11:20
|
|
|
What's the current PvE game of choice right now? With a large amount of casual end game content.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2022 14:22
|
|
|
Phigs posted:Nothing I said makes a persistent world impossible. This would be great. I would play the hell out of this game. e: Moochewmoo posted:What's the current PvE game of choice right now? With a large amount of casual end game content. FFXIV, GW2 and WoW, probably in that order. I'd imagine WoW is technically a higher pop game than GW2, but it has fallen on hard times.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2022 14:25
|
|
|
Lost Ark looks to be the current hotness with actual staying power. It's been holding at 200k concurrent players on Steam. I can't speak for its endgame content though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2022 16:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 13, 2024 05:16 |
|
|
It still does not support controllers though, does it?
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2022 16:50
|
|
