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I saw in the NPR article that 4 million borrowers hold these sorts of loans, but it doesn't say how much total they are. I wonder if the feds would be able to just absorb the cost of the loans to make them equivalently forgiven to the other fed loans and how many unnecessary, unwanted tanks and fighter planes (cash equivalent) it would take to do so?
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Sep 29, 2022 19:23
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projecthalaxy posted:I saw in the NPR article that 4 million borrowers hold these sorts of loans, but it doesn't say how much total they are. I wonder if the feds would be able to just absorb the cost of the loans to make them equivalently forgiven to the other fed loans and how many unnecessary, unwanted tanks and fighter planes (cash equivalent) it would take to do so? The feds could do that, but congress would have to pass a law appropriating money for it.
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Sep 29, 2022 19:25
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Laterite posted:Here's an NPR article as well, but, yes. An even bigger disaster would be any of the 6 state lawsuits succeeding in completely nullifying the EO. Lets just hope that Biden gets a workaround for those FFEL loan holders who hadn’t consolidated before today and has less than $10K in student loans serviced by the feds Kalit fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Sep 29, 2022 |
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Sep 29, 2022 19:25
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The FFEL thing was always a huge up in the air question. I never thought they explicitly stated they'd be covered (but could be wrong on that). As a holder of FFEL loans I was always looking for guidance and basically everything I found said most wouldn't be. The barometer was "did your FFEL loan qualify for the COVID pause? No? Better loving consolidate now." The huge issue here is not giving people a heads up to consolidate them. If it was like "we won't cover these, you have 1 month to begin the consolidation process so that we will cover it" then that'd be fine. But just saying "we aren't covering it and if you haven't already applied for consolidation you're SOL" is a huge own goal here.
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Sep 29, 2022 19:33
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BonoMan posted:The FFEL thing was always a huge up in the air question. I never thought they explicitly stated they'd be covered (but could be wrong on that). As a holder of FFEL loans I was always looking for guidance and basically everything I found said most wouldn't be. The barometer was "did your FFEL loan qualify for the COVID pause? No? Better loving consolidate now." According to that linked NPR article, they were giving borrowers a heads up. However, the way it was worded made it sound like they had another year+ to consolidate their loans 
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Sep 29, 2022 19:37
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Kalit posted:According to that linked NPR article, they were giving borrowers a heads up. However, the way it was worded made it sound like they had another year+ to consolidate their loans Were they? Because I certainly didn't get any heads up on it. I did apply for consolidation on Aug 25 (but it hasn't gone through yet) so maybe there was something in their system that flagged that? But I sure as poo poo got no heads from the StudentAid.gov nor MOHELA (which I would expect from them).
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Sep 29, 2022 19:51
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BonoMan posted:Were they? Because I certainly didn't get any heads up on it. I did apply for consolidation on Aug 25 (but it hasn't gone through yet) so maybe there was something in their system that flagged that? But I sure as poo poo got no heads from the StudentAid.gov nor MOHELA (which I would expect from them). Well if you’re talking about proactive contacting borrowers, I don’t know. But if you look at that NPR article, it shows the DoE website’s guidance in screenshots going from something like “unsure about privately held loans, consolidate guarantees it” to “no luck if you didn’t consolidate before 9/29”* *I’m on a phone and don’t want to try to retype the entire message verbatim. Look at the article for exact verbiage
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Sep 29, 2022 20:02
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Kalit posted:An even bigger disaster would be any of the 6 state lawsuits succeeding in completely nullifying the EO. This is literally worse than doing nothing for those 4mil. If that is truly a valid concern why in the absolute gently caress did Biden not think about that before he came out with the loan forgiveness?? He certainly dithered about it long enough to forsee this wrinkle! Like those 4 million people had just enough time to start making financial decisions based on the incoming forgiveness. Forget about the emotional bait and switch their quality of life is going to be impacted by this!
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Sep 29, 2022 20:03
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A big flaming stink posted:This is literally worse than doing nothing for those 4mil. If that is truly a valid concern why in the absolute gently caress did Biden not think about that before he came out with the loan forgiveness?? He certainly dithered amor it long enough to forsee this wrinkle! Preemptively folding really does bring into question if the long wait in a decision was really about making sure it was done the right way.
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Sep 29, 2022 20:04
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A big flaming stink posted:This is literally worse than doing nothing for those 4mil. If that is truly a valid concern why in the absolute gently caress did Biden not think about that before he came out with the loan forgiveness?? He certainly dithered about it long enough to forsee this wrinkle! FFEL loans were abolished in 2010 by Obamacare. Previous to 2010, if you got a FFEL loan, then it could be held by the DOE or issued by a private lender with private money and just guaranteed by the DOE. Privately held FFEL loans were never eligible for forgiveness on their own. But, when they first announced the debt forgiveness, they had said that privately held FFEL loans could be consolidated into new federal loans and qualify for forgiveness. They never said when they had to be consolidated by and a lot of people thought it would be by at least the end of the year. But, the new guidance says you have to have started the consolidation process before today. If your FFEL loan was eligible for the student loan pause, then it is still good for forgiveness. If it was never eligible and you didn't start the consolidation process by yesterday, then it is not.
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Sep 29, 2022 20:08
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BonoMan posted:The FFEL thing was always a huge up in the air question. I never thought they explicitly stated they'd be covered (but could be wrong on that). As a holder of FFEL loans I was always looking for guidance and basically everything I found said most wouldn't be. The barometer was "did your FFEL loan qualify for the COVID pause? No? Better loving consolidate now." Seems like Republican politicians are filing lawsuits using the FFEL thing as a basis, the banks are threatening to sue as well, and the administration would prefer not to have the entire student loan relief program put on hold by a judicial injunction right before an election. From the NPR article: quote:Multiple legal experts tell NPR the reversal in policy was likely made out of concern that the private banks that manage old FFEL loans could potentially file lawsuits to stop the debt relief, arguing that Biden's plan would cause them financial harm.
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Sep 29, 2022 20:09
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Kalit posted:Well if you’re talking about proactive contacting borrowers, I don’t know. Yeah I thought you meant proactively contacting borrowers (I went and read the article) and that's definitely not the case. The tricky thing is that most, if not all, FFEL borrowers used a loan servicer so you did all transactions through their site (MOHELA for me) so I think there's a large chance a lot of those folks never made it to StudentAid.gov. Certainly not to the point where they were checking it often for news. Pretty lovely. I'm glad I went ahead and got the process going. Sheesh.
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Sep 29, 2022 20:30
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Laterite posted:Here's an NPR article as well, but, yes. The Democrats are addicted to losing (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 29, 2022 21:23
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What an incredible own goal. Along with gas prices going back up, just amazing.
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Sep 29, 2022 21:42
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The Republicans might sue and take it away! We'll just take it out now. Being able to campign on "I gave ypu X and the Republicans took it away" is a concept that is totally alien to all democrats.
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Sep 29, 2022 21:46
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the argument is that the private FFEL lenders could sue and get the entire student debt cancellation order voided
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Sep 29, 2022 21:50
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Nucleic Acids posted:The Democrats are addicted to losing Jaxyon posted:What an incredible own goal. Meatball posted:The Republicans might sue and take it away! We'll just take it out now. Why are y’all focused on optics over actual outcomes that will best help those who need it? E: Basically what Main Paineframe/James Garfield said above this post Kalit fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Sep 29, 2022 |
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Sep 29, 2022 21:58
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Kalit posted:Why are y’all focused on optics over actual outcomes that will best help those who need it? because with the attempts to change election officials and the current state of democracy in the US, the fall election is hugely important and may end up in a generational fascist takeover the dems already are facing huge headwaters due to fundamentals like the economy and inflation and small things are likely to be decisive.
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Sep 29, 2022 22:04
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James Garfield posted:the argument is that the private FFEL lenders could sue and get the entire student debt cancellation order voided Sure, but the state lawsuits that seek that outcome already were, and are now, happening regardless. So this is pulling the football away from the kicker when half the defense isn't even on the field.
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Sep 29, 2022 22:09
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Jaxyon posted:because with the attempts to change election officials and the current state of democracy in the US, the fall election is hugely important and may end up in a generational fascist takeover You also blamed dems for rising gas prices.
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Sep 29, 2022 22:09
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Solkanar512 posted:You also blamed dems for rising gas prices. Where did I do that?
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Sep 29, 2022 22:10
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Jaxyon posted:Where did I do that? It's right there. Jaxyon posted:What an incredible own goal. Why else are you grouping the two issues together with no further clarification?
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Sep 29, 2022 22:13
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Kalit posted:Why are y’all focused on optics over actual outcomes that will best help those who need it? our long history of observing the modern democratic party immediately selling out constituents on the grounds it might offend a republican has made us skeptical of the nth time we hear them say "sorry, it's the best that we could do"
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Sep 29, 2022 22:14
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Solkanar512 posted:You also blamed dems for rising gas prices. The way I interpreted their post, they're just observing that rising gas prices will be blamed on the democrats, which seems pretty likely to be a Thing, rather than them personally assigning the blame for the prices on the dems as you claim, which I don't really see.
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Sep 29, 2022 22:14
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Kalit posted:Why are y’all focused on optics over actual outcomes that will best help those who need it? The people getting screwed over by this need help just as much.
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Sep 29, 2022 22:15
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Jaxyon posted:because with the attempts to change election officials and the current state of democracy in the US, the fall election is hugely important and may end up in a generational fascist takeover So if you want to focus on that and don't care about the actual outcome, what's better for optics: 1) a good chance that the $10k public student loan relief is stayed by the courts by November or 2) most everyone is still going to get the $10k public student loan relief with a small percentage that remains up in the air?
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Sep 29, 2022 22:20
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hey remember the last dem proposal to give people money if they vote for them, those two thousand dollar checks that Would Go Out if Georgia delivered Biden a majority i am not looking forward to the updated version of "you idiots, you clods, you uppity loving peasants, how dare you take us at our word"
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Sep 29, 2022 22:22
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Kalit posted:Why are y’all focused on optics over actual outcomes that will best help those who need it? I don't think it's that weird, they hosed up the optics when one of their goals was not loving up the optics. Biden waited on student loans and crafted what was supposed to be a well designed policy that wouldn't be too extreme but would provide help and would do that by being able to easily pass through the system in a way that more extreme options kind trying to cancel all debt wouldn't. And now they're dropping parts of that policy. They waited for the optics of student loans before the midterms and now those optics are hurt. Optics have been a big part of this policy the entire time.
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Sep 29, 2022 22:34
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Mischievous Mink posted:The way I interpreted their post, they're just observing that rising gas prices will be blamed on the democrats, which seems pretty likely to be a Thing, rather than them personally assigning the blame for the prices on the dems as you claim, which I don't really see. That's not what an own goal is. You have to actively score against yourself for an own goal. That means it is your fault, there is no other interpretation.
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Sep 29, 2022 22:35
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E: double posting is an own goal
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Sep 29, 2022 22:36
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Solkanar512 posted:It's right there. Because I was listing things that would be bad for Dems electoral chances in November? I've talked about inflation too, and they didn't cause that either. Kalit posted:So if you want to focus on that and don't care about the actual outcome, what's better for optics: 1) a good chance that the $10k public student loan relief is stayed by the courts by November or 2) most everyone is still going to get the $10k public student loan relief with a small percentage that remains up in the air? Both are very bad and would be very bad for democrats and a pretty serious own-goal as far as optics and messaging.
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Sep 29, 2022 22:36
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Yawgmoft posted:That's not what an own goal is. You have to actively score against yourself for an own goal. That means it is your fault, there is no other interpretation. taking credit for lowering gas prices followed immediately by gas prices going back up qualifies neatly, yes
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Sep 29, 2022 22:38
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Jaxyon posted:Both are very bad and would be very bad for democrats and a pretty serious own-goal as far as optics and messaging. So..... I'm confused about what you think a good (or not bad) route would have been. Stated from the start that FFEL/Perkins loans weren't eligible, preventing those who had consolidated before today from qualifying? Not trying to fulfill the $10k student loan forgiveness campaign promise at all? Or a more risky forgiveness plan that would have probably gotten stayed by the courts before midterms? Or something else?
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Sep 29, 2022 22:42
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Kalit posted:So..... I'm confused about what you think a good (or not bad) route would have been. Stated from the start that FFEL/Perkins loans weren't eligible, preventing those who had consolidated before today from qualifying? Not trying to fulfill the $10k student loan forgiveness campaign promise at all? Or a more risky forgiveness plan that would have probably gotten stayed by the courts before midterms? Or something else? Probably not heavily advertise a risky benefit that had a good chance of failing, right before the election, in multiple ways?
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Sep 29, 2022 22:45
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Jaxyon posted:Probably not heavily advertise a risky benefit that had a good chance of failing, right before the election, in multiple ways? Where did Biden heavily advertise that privately-held loans would be covered by this $10k forgiveness plan? Even articles published a few days ago specified that they are not eligible for forgiveness, such as https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/which-loans-qualify-student-loan-forgiveness-2022-9
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Sep 29, 2022 22:49
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Jaxyon posted:Probably not heavily advertise a risky benefit that had a good chance of failing, right before the election, in multiple ways? They didn't say those loans were going to be forgiven, but they did say that you could consolidate them into Direct Loans to make them eligible for forgiveness. They never gave a date for when the cutoff would be. The change today was that they announced that the cutoff was yesterday. This was the previous FFEL guidance:  This is the new one: 
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Sep 29, 2022 22:54
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Kalit posted:Where did Biden heavily advertise that privately-held loans would be covered by this $10k forgiveness plan? Even articles published a few days ago specified that they are not eligible for forgiveness, such as https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/which-loans-qualify-student-loan-forgiveness-2022-9 I mean the overall debt forgiveness. This is all playing out very similarly to the "vote for us and get $2k....wait why did you expect $2k" situation. It's a messaging failure to talk heavily on loan forgiveness and then say much later "oh btw a bunch that we thought might be forgiveable were not sorry" (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 29, 2022 22:55
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Jaxyon posted:I mean the overall debt forgiveness. Take your optics with not caring about actual outcomes and gently caress off with them. To clarify my frustration with your bullshit responses: if they went with the message being 100% for sure accurate, nothing would have been forgiven for fear of lawsuits. If they went with trying to be ~99% accurate, then everyone who had consolidated privately held/federally backed loans before today wouldn't have been helped. A balance has to be struck and I would rather people actually be helped than fear mongering of something, something, Jaxyon posted:the current state of democracy in the US, [...] generational fascist takeover (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 29, 2022 23:05
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Kalit posted:Take your optics with not caring about actual outcomes and gently caress off with them. Hey so is "Jaxyon doesn't care about actual outcomes" a thing I wrote, or is that a thing that you came up with in your head in order to get the dopamine going and feel some righteous anger at a simpler argument than what was written? ~~~~~~~ edit: To start a new subject: https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1575561167476498432 Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Sep 29, 2022 |
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Sep 29, 2022 23:08
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Laterite posted:Sure, but the state lawsuits that seek that outcome already were, and are now, happening regardless. So this is pulling the football away from the kicker when half the defense isn't even on the field. If the thing that the lawsuits are based on is no longer happening, then the lawsuits will be rejected by the courts as mooted and no longer an issue.
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Sep 29, 2022 23:36
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