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wizardofloneliness posted:Agreed, it really doesn’t seem like they even consider it a plot point that needs to be addressed or solved. I’ve certainly never seen the “elementals are bloodsucking landlords that need to be destroyed or put in their place” discourse anywhere else but here, that’s for sure. saying we need to kill all the elementals because they're landlords is definitely only a take you could get from cspam
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Oct 3, 2022 01:16
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Badger of Basra posted:saying we need to kill all the elementals because they're landlords is definitely only a take you could get from cspam I haven’t even seen it on twitter and that’s saying something. It’s elemental-hating city over here, I guess.
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Oct 3, 2022 01:29
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This has come up before but it's basically summed up as: The elementals view plants and animals not meaningfully different from standard spoken beings and isn't cool with them being butchered without care and thought about the long-term life of the forest. If you set a farmer's cattle on fire they are going to be pretty angry at you, even if they might have become hamburger later down the line. They have spent as far as we are aware centuries if not millenia dealing with various races coming in and trying to gently caress up the forest and respond negatively because there is almost no point in their history where they are not dealing with that, up to and including in ARR where bandits and poachers razing everything they can get their hands on is an ongoing problem. They don't always make the kindest decisions (or the right decision) but that goes back to the aforementioned 'not meaningfully different' thing. The elementals allow Gridanias to hunt and harvest specific trees and animals (and even negotiate with them about what is allowed) because that is also part of sustaining a healthy forest as long as it is done properly, but the fact that that certain trees and animals are allowed to die means there's no reason the elementals should feel differently about anything that isn't a tree or animal. If you're okay with killing an animal who is dangerous, why are you not okay with killing a human who is dangerous? Their entire mindset requires you to accept that they don't view human life as any particularly more valuable than any other life on its own merits. That's it. That is the big breaking point and why you can't 'fix' them because basically the only counteragument in the FFXIV world is "but we have faces and can talk" and hell, even that is barely valid since we know trees can move around and talk and an animal that lives long enough can turn into a cool looking thirsty as gently caress bird lady. The 'landlord' argument doesn't work because the rent being charged is "maintain and respect the forest and stop those who would choose not to do that.' If a landlord asked for nothing but you not wrecking the place you were staying then we'd all be a lot happier. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Oct 3, 2022 |
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Oct 3, 2022 01:30
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they just need a pr glow-up. have they considered taking corporeal form as tall bunny ladies with nordic accents?
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Oct 3, 2022 01:34
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Oneiros posted:they just need a pr glow-up. have they considered taking corporeal form as tall bunny ladies with nordic accents? Yeah, lets be clear. Of the horrifying murder you for entering their forest groups, the Elementals of Gridania are canonically less dangerous than the Viera of Golmore, and more open to communication.
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Oct 3, 2022 01:39
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The story just needs to actually talk about maybe finding some better common ground with them because as it is now the little bits we've seen of them are "Letting people easily saved to die for petty grudges or misunderstandings we would work to bridge in any other place in the work", "kidnapping children from unwilling parents to use as their mouth pieces" and "Having to have literally every major player in their city including their most chosen mouth piece beg and do special rituals to even begin the debate on whether or not they'd help us out in our mission to stop all of them and everyone else in the shroud from dying to Hyper Venom 2: This Time It's Also A Monster". OH and "Saved Y'sh once after sufficient pleading". You can sit here and say people aren't being fair but as far as the actual narrative as presented they're kind of absolute poo poo to live around and work with in ways that we have at least sat down and had a long discussion with other groups about in every other part of the game's writing. Like the last time you tried to say people are being too unkind about them ImpAtom because the good they do is all off screen and just people saying "Absolutely promise they're doing good." and not...actually story things you see or experience so it's not anyone's fault for reading them as way shittier than they're allegedly supposed to be. Hell, most of the WHM quest lines AND that role quest are about how that weird tenuous relationship they have with people and their largely inscrutable will actively harms the individuals stuck either as part of the system or just trying to loving live their life in the woods they were born into. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Oct 3, 2022 |
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Oct 3, 2022 01:39
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They just need to be viewed through the “sad dad” lens and people will come around.
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Oct 3, 2022 01:39
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Something being overlooked in the Elemental chat is that the Black Shroud and Gridania do benefit defensively from having the Elementals be present there. In exchange for the current situation, they can live in a forest that's highly resistant to outside incursion. Or, at least, it was much more like that during the 1.0 era. Post Calamity, they are significantly weakened, which I suspect is a point of convenience for the writers to make it easier to have adventurers traipsing through the Shroud without things being excessively hostile. Even if the situation has changed, though, the leadership and the citizens of Gridania are still the same, with the same beliefs and traditions. Things are likely to carry on more or less as they always have because it has always worked, hasn't it? Setting out to kill the Elementals isn't a reasonable solution and not one that Gridania would want or the game would care to engage with. What is overdue, I think, is to have the story seriously engage with the idea that maybe, just maybe, with the world in its current state of change, perhaps Gridania's relationship with the Elementals has room to be renegotiated. That, however, would require that the writers have the time allotted to put focus on old zones and old characters when there's big new adventures to be had.
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Oct 3, 2022 01:39
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Yeah, the Elementals have an appeals process and would probably not instantly blast you for going a mile up the wrong turnpike by accident.
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Oct 3, 2022 01:40
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FeatherFloat posted:Setting out to kill the Elementals isn't a reasonable solution and not one that Gridania would want or the game would care to engage with. What is overdue, I think, is to have the story seriously engage with the idea that maybe, just maybe, with the world in its current state of change, perhaps Gridania's relationship with the Elementals has room to be renegotiated. That, however, would require that the writers have the time allotted to put focus on old zones and old characters when there's big new adventures to be had. I mean jokes aside this is all I really want. Is a story that does what every other story set in Gridania has done (IE Show how this relationship constantly fucks things up for people and the elementals) and then instead of going "Pretty Please can we just get this one favor?" and then ignoring it maybe expand in that and talk about the issues and find some redress. Like we've done in literally every single other nation-state's writing. But Imp your instant defensive stance of "Actually there's nothing wrong and people are just making up that there's an issue" feels incredibly reactionary and not supported by the text where Bad poo poo Keeps happening because of the shittiness of Gridania's ability to actually discuss poo poo with the elementals is.
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Oct 3, 2022 01:45
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:The story just needs to actually talk about maybe finding some better common ground with them because as it is now the little bits we've seen of them are "Letting people easily saved to die for petty grudges or misunderstandings we would work to bridge in any other place in the work", "kidnapping children from unwilling parents to use as their mouth pieces" and "Having to have literally every major player in their city including their most chosen mouth piece beg and do special rituals to even begin the debate on whether or not they'd help us out in our mission to stop all of them and everyone else in the shroud from dying to Hyper Venom 2: This Time It's Also A Monster". You can sit here and say people aren't being fair but as far as the actual narrative as presented they're kind of absolute poo poo to live around and work with in ways that we have at least sat down and had a long discussion with other groups about in every other part of the game's writing. I mean according to the lore it really is not that lovely a place to live. The moments that get brought up are when something goes terribly wrong but as far as we're aware the average Gridanian is happy to live there. People treat it like an endless hellscape but that isn't really how it is presented in story. Even the Padjali are a case where people are honored by the idea. (And as we've seen screwing up just means you get turned back into a normal person, not you die on the spot.) I'd in fact go out on a limb and say it is a significantly less lovely place to live than Ul'dah and if I had to deal with the Syndicate or the Elementals I'd take the Elementals 10 times out of 10. We've had a lot of conversations with Ul'dah but at the end of the day it having an adorable figurehead princess isn't really changing the fact it's a pretty poo poo place to live. ZenMasterBullshit posted:I mean jokes aside this is all I really want. Is a story that does what every other story set in Gridania has done (IE Show how this relationship constantly fucks things up for people and the elementals) and then instead of going "Pretty Please can we just get this one favor?" and then ignoring it maybe expand in that and talk about the issues and find some redress. Like we've done in literally every single other nation-state's writing. The issue here is that it doesn't 'constantly gently caress up.' As far as we're aware it actually goes pretty drat smoothly. Gridania's biggest problem is that it is largely doing just fine and doesn't actually need much help aside from in extraordinary circumstances. That actually makes it harder to write a plot for because they're largely fine! Their biggest problems are bandits and invaders. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Oct 3, 2022 |
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Oct 3, 2022 01:45
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ImpAtom posted:I mean according to the lore it really is not that lovely a place to live. The moments that get brought up are when something goes terribly wrong but as far as we're aware the average Gridanian is happy to live there. Again not that's not true. Half the class quests in gridania are about people that aren't and how there's little redress if they aren't. Again, most of the WHM questslines are about this or the issues these stresses cause. Half the incidental dialogue in places in the shroud and in gridania the city are about issues people face because of how the elementals run poo poo. There's been a dying child being told they're just gonna have to deal with their treatable illness because of the will of the elementals for 8 years at this point. The entire cycle of racism leading to starvation leading to poaching leading to elementals mad leading to racism has been a core bit of the Shroud's writing since 2.0 and probably earlier. And again these are all issues that would at least be called out in any other part of the game and attempted to be addressed in some form. Looking at all this unaddressed poo poo and going "Actually everyone loves it and is doing great there! I'd love to live there" is just as stupid and reactionary a read as the people non-jokingly saying we should kill them all. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Oct 3, 2022 |
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Oct 3, 2022 01:50
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Again not that's not true. Half the class quests in gridania are about people that aren't and how there's little redress if they aren't. Again, most of the WHM questslines are about this or the issues these stresses cause. Half the incidental dialogue in places in the shroud and in gridania the city are about issues people face because of how the elementals run poo poo. There's been a dying child being told they're just gonna have to deal with their treatable illness because of the will of the elementals for 8 years at this point. The entire cycle of racism leading to starvation leading to poaching leading to elementals mad leading to racism has been a core bit of the Shroud's writing since 2.0 and probably earlier. And again these are all issues that would at least be called out in any other part of the game and attempted to be addressed in some form. Ah, so the real problem with Gridania is that for the people on top (Hyur and Elezen citizens from long-established families, Pajdals, etc) things generally work very well! For anyone on the receiving end day to day Gridanian racism, things are considerably worse, but what power do they have to do anything about it? That story is also one that never seems to get properly addressed, for some reason. Even if you did go and nuke the Elementals you'd still have the people in charge treating Keepers of the Moon and Duskwights and Ala Mhigans like poo poo because that's what people do.
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Oct 3, 2022 01:52
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FeatherFloat posted:Ah, so the real problem with Gridania is that for the people on top (Hyur and Elezen citizens from long-established families, Pajdals, etc) things generally work very well! For anyone on the receiving end day to day Gridanian racism, things are considerably worse, but what power do they have to do anything about it? Yeah it's almost as if there was a lot of set up for plot points about issues facing the region related to the elementals directly and indirectly and and the people living there like everywhere else but then it just gets ignored every time gridania gets spotlight in favor of....well really nothing? Occasionally having to hold hands and beg the elementals to keep their part of the bargin? Like I said ZenMasterBullshit posted:I mean jokes aside this is all I really want. Is a story that does what every other story set in Gridania has done (IE Show how this relationship constantly fucks things up for people and the elementals) and then instead of going "Pretty Please can we just get this one favor?" and then ignoring it maybe expand in that and talk about the issues and find some redress. Like we've done in literally every single other nation-state's writing. the writing around Gridania just needs to actually do what every other part of the game's has done.
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Oct 3, 2022 01:55
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wizardofloneliness posted:They just need to be viewed through the “sad dad” lens and people will come around. you joke but if they made a vaguely hot elemental avatar we wouldn't be having this argument
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Oct 3, 2022 01:58
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Again not that's not true. Half the class quests in gridania are about people that aren't and how there's little redress if they aren't. Again, most of the WHM questslines are about this or the issues these stresses cause. Half the incidental dialogue in places in the shroud and in gridania the city are about issues people face because of how the elementals run poo poo. There's been a dying child being told they're just gonna have to deal with their treatable illness because of the will of the elementals for 8 years at this point. The entire cycle of racism leading to starvation leading to poaching leading to elementals mad leading to racism has been a core bit of the Shroud's writing since 2.0 and probably earlier. It really isn't. There's a reason people keep pointing to like the same three things whenever this comes up and it is because there aren't a lot of other great examples. Again, we're told both in text and in the lorebook that Gridania is doing fine. Their biggest issues are from outside their borders (bandits and Ala Mhigo/Garleans on their borders.) There is friction between the elementals and the people but the entire point of the story is that the friction between the two is impossible and the hornfolk exist to help mediate and negotiate this terms. The lorebook explicitly states the people are proud to live there and live by the rules of the forest. The racism issue is a bigger one but also one far more coached in the actual people of the land and it isn't really going to be solved by talking about how terrible the elementals are because in your argument you're basically saying "The Elementals are obligated to allow people to poach and destroy the forest without response and that is the only acceptable outcome, nobody else has to change." And you can say "Well maybe if they bend a bit" but that goes back to the "spoken life isn't necessarily more valuable than any other life in the forest" part. If it comes down to two trees and a chicken vs one spoken, they are not going to view the spoken as being more worthwhile and important even if they are starving or needy. ZenMasterBullshit posted:the writing around Gridania just needs to actually do what every other part of the game's has done. The issue is, as I pointed out, that already happened. Gridania's pact was made before the game started and the state it is in is roughly where Ishgard is getting to now where they are dealing with the difficulties of intermingling cultures rather than at eternal war. It is a genuine writing problem that Gridania's problems are largely solved why is part of why their stories are boring. The biggest conflict they have is between two separate cultures with different ideals who are already compromising. Like I genuinely can't imagine what outcome you can picture that isn't "The elementals start giving Spoken special treatment and claim they are worth more than the rest of the forest." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Oct 3, 2022 |
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Oct 3, 2022 01:58
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The real reason people want to go 'bad guys from Ferngully' on the Elementals is because they think the game's trained them to kill the biggest gods in the setting, and at this point the Elementals are one of the biggest ones still on their checklist. They have not realized that the things we've killed aren't gods, that we don't do that without good reason, that the Elementals actually haven't provided good reason, and also that they're actually significantly MORE powerful than anything we've taken down.
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Oct 3, 2022 01:59
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The other three city states got the "maybe we can do things better" treatment, tree town can do it too. Casting the issue as between everything is Just Fine and Burn All The Trees is dumb af because obvious there are some issues and the other is the internet hyperbole answer and shouldn't be taken seriously or literally as a position. The role quest made an attempt to at least float the idea that the current system of letting the magic horned kids and old assholes that make poo poo up handle everything is not great. I hope they continue with that
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Oct 3, 2022 02:03
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Cleretic posted:also that they're actually significantly MORE powerful than anything we've taken down. Are they? The WHM questline left me feeling that nature is a pretty delicate balance and they'd all die if a particularly corrupting voidsent ran wild for a month unchecked.
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Oct 3, 2022 02:05
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Doomykins posted:Are they? The WHM questline left me feeling that nature is a pretty delicate balance and they'd all die if a particularly corrupting voidsent ran wild for a month unchecked. They aren't really. They're incredibly weak following the calamity and basically half the padjali and conjurers are on constant emergency cleansing mode even this far out. Their one big show of power is being able to gently caress with the lifestream/pull poo poo out of it and we've met a few dozen guys who could do that with much less effort and trounced them.
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Oct 3, 2022 02:09
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Doomykins posted:Are they? The WHM questline left me feeling that nature is a pretty delicate balance and they'd all die if a particularly corrupting voidsent ran wild for a month unchecked. The elementals can disintegrate people, so yes, they are. Yeah, they need help when faced with a problem they can't do anything about, we are not capable of being among those problems. And before someone tries to bring up our list of wins, all of the biggest ones were in some way handicapped at the time. Zodiark was incomplete and piloted by someone without experience, Hydaelyn was low on energy, the Twelve are holding back for reasons of their own. The Elementals aren't gonna hold back.
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Oct 3, 2022 02:11
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GloomMouse posted:The other three city states got the "maybe we can do things better" treatment, tree town can do it too. Casting the issue as between everything is Just Fine and Burn All The Trees is dumb af because obvious there are some issues and the other is the internet hyperbole answer and shouldn't be taken seriously or literally as a position. The role quest made an attempt to at least float the idea that the current system of letting the magic horned kids and old assholes that make poo poo up handle everything is not great. I hope they continue with that Same, as many issues I had with it it's a turn for the better and yeah Imp's attempts to frame this issue as this either or hard line stance because of a few stupid posts while ignoring poo poo in game is very much dumb. Cleretic posted:The elementals can disintegrate people, so yes, they are. Emet could do all those things and we beat him at his peak. This is cope.
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Oct 3, 2022 02:11
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This isn't going to make any sense to the 98% of you who don't do Savage, but I just found this absolutely cursed P8S strat for Manifold Flames and I need to share it with people. https://twitter.com/mitsurugi137/status/1569114753158762496 What the gently caress For context, either the tanks and healers or the DPS will take an AoE at positions north and south or east and west. The role that didn't get the AoE will have to run to the boss to bait a line AoE. Taking both of these AoEs will kill you. This strat puts everyone on one side with no breathing room so people can hit their raid buffs.
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Oct 3, 2022 02:12
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Badger of Basra posted:you joke but if they made a vaguely hot elemental avatar we wouldn't be having this argument 
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Oct 3, 2022 02:13
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Arist posted:This isn't going to make any sense to the 98% of you who don't do Savage, but I just found this absolutely cursed P8S strat for Manifold Flames and I need to share it with people. Ahaha gently caress this strat. Oh my god.
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Oct 3, 2022 02:14
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Theswarms posted:Do we actually know the elementals where there first? Hard to say but most likely yes. Too lazy to go pull the lore book off the shelf but I am pretty sure Gelmora was founded in the 2nd age by people who fled underground to avoid the first calamity and they stayed there because every time they tried to get outside the elementals killed them. Failboattootoot fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Oct 3, 2022 |
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Oct 3, 2022 02:14
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Failboattootoot posted:Hard to say but most likely yes. Too lazy to go pull the lore book off the shelf but I am pretty sure Gelmora was founded in the 2nd age by people who fled underground to avoid the first calamity. Got the numbers entirely wrong, it was founded in the Sixth Era after the Sixth Calamity.
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Oct 3, 2022 02:17
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Doomykins posted:Are they? The WHM questline left me feeling that nature is a pretty delicate balance and they'd all die if a particularly corrupting voidsent ran wild for a month unchecked. Yeah, I got (the equivalent of) a Game Over for not casting Cure II on a tree enough. But in different news, time to post glams and/or interior decorating! 
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Oct 3, 2022 02:18
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Ahaha gently caress this strat. Oh my god. I feel like I'm going to have nightmares about trying to do this, holy poo poo
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Oct 3, 2022 02:20
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Same, as many issues I had with it it's a turn for the better and yeah Imp's attempts to frame this issue as this either or hard line stance because of a few stupid posts while ignoring poo poo in game is very much dumb. I 'frame' it this way because every time it comes up there is no actual discussion of what better means that isn't 'The Elementals bow to humans and do everything they want' while framing literally everything about the Elementals as horrifying tyrants who never do anything good ever. It is boring to take an alien species and bend them 100% to human morality. It kinda defeats the point of having a culture conflict in the first place. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Oct 3, 2022 |
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Oct 3, 2022 02:20
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Even if they had a signed writ from Venat stating that they got the winning bid in the first housing lottery, the issue is that in order to make things better in the here and now it's time for some changes
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Oct 3, 2022 02:22
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc98KiCx3Gc&t=45s
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Oct 3, 2022 02:27
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Dareon posted:Yeah, I got (the equivalent of) a Game Over for not casting Cure II on a tree enough. lol that's basically how i did my apartment 
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Oct 3, 2022 02:28
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GloomMouse posted:Even if they had a signed writ from Venat stating that they got the winning bid in the first housing lottery, the issue is that in order to make things better in the here and now it's time for some changes Again, what is better that isn't exclusively ' The Elementals need to do what we say and nothimg else.' This argument would be a lot easier if there was an idea of what the changes were thst weren't 100% the Elementals just doing what humans say. I genuinely gave no idea what people want to change that isn't 'The Elementals are not allowed to do anything but help humans and stop treating trees like they matter.'
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Oct 3, 2022 02:30
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The elementals are alien intellects that in the past were so powerful they just needed to relay their Will through the horned kids, maybe sic some beasties on someone, and they were fine. They are hosed up after Big Baha did the thing and the relationship is more equal. The elementals can trust their horned chosen more, the people can try taking some of the burden off the horned kids. There are things that can be done and talked about that isn't just beat up the trees until they are nice or just make the aliens people. The role quest touched on some of this
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Oct 3, 2022 02:32
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Arist posted:I feel like I'm going to have nightmares about trying to do this, holy poo poo This strat is insanely easy idk what the reaction is about. My group does it and it's had zero failures even once.
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Oct 3, 2022 02:32
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ImpAtom posted:Again, what is better that isn't exclusively ' The Elementals need to do what we say and nothimg else.' Literally any more equitable agreement that might help alleviate the standing issues. This isn't a 100 or 0 thing Imp, stop trying to frame it as that. This is the equivalent of talking about dealing with pre-HW Ishgard's problems and saying "What? You wanna kill all the dragons? Because that's the only option I'm seeing!" I do appreciate you at least insinuating there might be issues in the city state though, in just a few posts you've managed to go from arguing there was nothing wrong there to maybe there is but we can't do anything about it. Really shows your convictions and the thought you've put into your argument.
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Oct 3, 2022 02:34
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ImpAtom posted:Again, what is better that isn't exclusively ' The Elementals need to do what we say and nothimg else.' The elementals taking any time at all to learn about the idea of individuals and generational shift would be nice at least. Considering the whole reason they didn't let the Ala Mighans recieve aid was the Autumn War, which none of those Ala Mighans likely participated in. People don't care that they treat trees like they matter, they care that they treat individuals like they don't. As it stands now, it's the non-elementals doing whatever the Elementals say, it's the situation you describe in reverse, and if one is wrong why is the other right. There is no negotiation or discussion taking place, it's do what the elementals say or leave, and even that isn't working any more because the Padjal are LYING about what the elementals say sometimes.
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Oct 3, 2022 02:39
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Lord_Magmar posted:The elementals taking any time at all to learn about the idea of individuals and generational shift would be nice at least. Considering the whole reason they didn't let the Ala Mighans recieve aid was the Autumn War, which none of those Ala Mighans likely participated in. Maybe some attempt at reconciliation and integration with all the people they've forced into exile that is part of this chain of violence and racism, maybe? I dunno Imp ther'es a lot of space between "Enslaving/Killing the elementals" and "Actually everything is fine here!" And I don't think you're stupid enough to not realize it so I don't know why you arguing like it is. Hell you can do that thing hte game Looooooves to do WRT building something new and better than it was pre-calamity by working on this more equitable approach compared to pre-calamity where the elementals just roamed around deleting people they disagreed with. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Oct 3, 2022 |
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Oct 3, 2022 02:41
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The reason I commented on the housing lottery win is that's the argument I "always" see on the other side of burn down the trees (it's not always, just both extremes shout so loud no one can get a word in). Things are Just Fine...or if pointed out they aren't then anything is okay because they were Here First EDIT: I think it's the non-padjal Hearers that do the lying but the broader point stands GloomMouse fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Oct 3, 2022 |
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Oct 3, 2022 02:43
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